Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-05-2008, 08:21 PM   #1
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Aikido and BJJ Discussion

I recently posted a short talk on YouTube regarding Aikido and BJJ.

I thought you might find it of interest.

Best,

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 08:28 PM   #2
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Speaking for myself, I would light a candle (or sseveral) if I never encountered another aikido vs. BJJ/Miller vs. Bud/Superman vs. Batman discussion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 08:38 PM   #3
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

I like your website Roy
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 08:46 PM   #4
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Speaking for myself, I would light a candle (or sseveral) if I never encountered another aikido vs. BJJ/Miller vs. Bud/Superman vs. Batman discussion.
I hear where you are coming from but did you even watch the video?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 09:58 PM   #5
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Initial reaction: kind of formal, and comes off as a little ... smug or smarmy or something. Relaxing a bit or something might help, maybe? Less time discussing rankings?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 05:11 AM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Why the negativity towards what he is saying? Kudo's to Roy for putting things in a positive light. He is talking about synthesis and a unifying perspective to help us improve.

I think if you are looking at this as a aikido vs bjj dichotomy, then you are missing the whole point.

IMO, Part of aikido training is supposed to be how to unify the world.

Roy, I appreciate the video.

Teaching soldiers Modern Army Combatives, I think our key to success lay in teaching gross or "macro" motor movements and committing these to muscle memory early. We achieve this through building a base of ground fighitng, ala BJJ style.

Once you achieve this base, you can spend more time on inserting "micro" motor movements, proprioception, sensitivity back into it.

This is what I get out of your video, and this is what I experience in my own training in the two arts.

Aikido does a good job and teaching the micro, sensitivity, and proprioception in the methodology, whereas, BJJ is much bettter at the macro.

Not that these concepts and prinicples do not exist in each other, just that the approaches to methodology when put together, allow for a more efficient transmission I think.

We have 4 aikidoka now studying in my BJJ group, and all 4 of us concur with this outlook, which is why we now study BJJ.

It would make sense I believe considering that the uchideshi or original students of O'sensei likely would have come to aikido with a grasp of other arts such as judo, kendo, or other such arts and would have a grasp of the concepts of macro/gross motor movements prior to studying aikido.

This might explain alot about the success, also the fact that you are playing a "numbers" game with statistics and the "handful" of successful people he put out the other end of his system was small compared to the number that actually started. AND they were probably hand selected because they met a criteria he established.

Anyway, good video, and please keep sharing with us, I find it very helpful.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 01:23 PM   #7
Cyrijl
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

nice video.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 02:35 PM   #8
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Marked for later

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 02:47 PM   #9
Tom Fish
Dojo: McAllen
Location: McAllen
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 23
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Good stuff Roy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 02:48 PM   #10
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Once again... Good Job Roy!

FYI Folks Roy Dean's stuff is always good.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 05:06 PM   #11
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

It's nothing against Roy or his video. I just get tired of the way it seems that at least half the time it's got to be about aikido vs. this or aikido compared to that or why aikido sucks or what aikido can't do. Just look at the topics on this forum, and look at the number of posts in the different threads. I find it incredibly tiresome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 05:43 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

np Mary, but this thread is not about "aikido vs".

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 05:47 PM   #13
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Agreed. Here is someone who is a BB in Aikido AND BJJ, offering up his experience with the two and how they interact with one another, and all you can see is Aikido vs?

Excellent video Roy, I agree with much of what you said. Keep it up!

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 12:29 AM   #14
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 510
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Hi Roy, thanks for the video, it's great to hear your point of view and experiences. But, what a cliffhanger! Why did you say that 2 of the major things aikido teaches (timing+sensitivity) had no positive effect when you began BJJ training? I am anxious for part 2, whether in text or video.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 03:20 AM   #15
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Good stuff Roy. I certainly recognise the journey you describe and particularly enjoyed your discussion of the application of ukemi to ground postitioning.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 07:30 AM   #16
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Agreed. Here is someone who is a BB in Aikido AND BJJ, offering up his experience with the two and how they interact with one another, and all you can see is Aikido vs?
Is that what I wrote?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 08:41 AM   #17
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Roy, thanks for the video, it's great to hear your point of view and experiences. But, what a cliffhanger! Why did you say that 2 of the major things aikido teaches (timing+sensitivity) had no positive effect when you began BJJ training? I am anxious for part 2, whether in text or video.
Actually, I think what he is saying is that it had no effect at first. Until he learned to fight on the ground, all of the useful skills he picked up in aikido were worthless. Then after he had mastered the basics of bjj, the benefits of aikido started to fall into place.

I've noticed this to some extent in my own training. Only now after 4 years of judo is my limited aikido training starting to actually help me in a standing grappling situation, even then, on the ground, quite less. In the stand up striking range, I've found what I know to be a hindrance and not a benefit. However, I believe he is trying to tell people like me that eventually we will get to a point where the aiki skills we pick up can be very useful.

This brings me again to the point where I realize that the skills I learned in aikido were only useful after developing good base skills in other arts, and on their own, did not stand. This is not a blanket statement, but true in my case.

Last edited by DonMagee : 02-07-2008 at 08:44 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2008, 05:14 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Coming back to aikido after a 4 year hiatus and only doing BJJ during that timeframe, my timing for aikido is a little off.

There are differences.

The differences are the assumptions you make in the context of study.

I am now going to over generalize so keep that in mind please.....

For instance, what I call "point of failure".

BJJ assumes point of failure at grappling range...it assumes away the ma'ai that we study in aikido, which I would call a "mid range" or knife/bllunt object weapons range.

We close distance quickly in BJJ and assume kuzushi very rapidily using speed, power, and skill.

In aikido we tend to approach that point more methodically, and with more control, and under more constraint.

How you approach closing the distance, or point of failure impacts timing, flinch response, and how you do things in general.

It is sort of like tuning a radio station on an old fashion radio. You have to get the station in the ball park, then you adjust the fine tuning. Again, back to gross motor movement vice fine motor movement.

I have found the same experience with respect to the two arts in respect to timing and sensitivity. At first my BJJ was all about holding a closed guard or holding the mount very tightly. As I have mastered the gross motor movements, I am able to "open up, play loser, and use a great deal of more sensitivity, which allows me to speed up or slow down (timing) as needed to "guide" or "respond" as necessary.

Coming back to aikido, it is difficult sometimes, because we tend to move slowly, and methodically in attempt to instill correct and appropriate movements in the uke/nage relationship. As such, it can be difficult because your brain or body is assuming a set of conditions based on your own beliefs about what is about to happen, and uke may have an entirely different set. Making the two mesh in aikido sometimes can be challenging in the constraints of training.

I find this especially true with beginners who in most cases in aikido have no idea what we really expect them to do and are being totally honest in what they think is an appropriate response, yet they do not do what we need them to do to complete the kata or exercise!

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 02-07-2008 at 05:15 PM. Reason: misspelling and fragments!

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2008, 03:31 AM   #19
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Actually, I think what he is saying is that it had no effect at first. Until he learned to fight on the ground, all of the useful skills he picked up in aikido were worthless. Then after he had mastered the basics of bjj, the benefits of aikido started to fall into place.

I've noticed this to some extent in my own training. Only now after 4 years of judo is my limited aikido training starting to actually help me in a standing grappling situation, even then, on the ground, quite less. In the stand up striking range, I've found what I know to be a hindrance and not a benefit. However, I believe he is trying to tell people like me that eventually we will get to a point where the aiki skills we pick up can be very useful.

This brings me again to the point where I realize that the skills I learned in aikido were only useful after developing good base skills in other arts, and on their own, did not stand. This is not a blanket statement, but true in my case.
I've found the same thing. Coming up towards 2 years at blue I find myself starting to think of aikido more and more in terms of my game. My explanations to people of BJJ techniques are having more and more aikido references. It's an interesting journey...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #20
Sam Turnage
 
Sam Turnage's Avatar
Dojo: Grass Valley Aikiki
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 53
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Very good stuff guys.

A Black Belt in Aikido and BJJ, that is very cool.

I have family in the Sisters/ Bend area and I would love to stop by the dojo next time I am up there.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 12:26 PM   #21
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
Pierre Kewcharoen's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido at NJIT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 100
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Speaking for myself, I would light a candle (or sseveral) if I never encountered another aikido vs. BJJ/Miller vs. Bud/Superman vs. Batman discussion.
Superman can easily kill batman, so does that mean aikido is the winner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 01:19 PM   #22
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Good stuff Roy.

Mary, if that is not what you meant, then why don't you restate it more clearly? I certainly got the impression that you thought this was a VERSUS thread, and to my limited understanding, it is not.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 11:31 PM   #23
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Superman can easily kill batman, so does that mean aikido is the winner?
[geek]actually batman has beaten down superman on more than one occassion [/geek]

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 12:28 AM   #24
MikeLogan
 
MikeLogan's Avatar
Location: Rochester, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 281
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

Quote:
Ron wrote:
got the impression that you thought this was a VERSUS thread
I had the same impression clicking the post link off of the front page. The video reminded me that it was written and, not vs . Happens sometimes.

As for the video itself I liked the translation of benefit from aikido to BJJ, but I didn't catch the reverse. In the last 1/4 of the talk you discuss strong points of timing and sensitivity in aikido, but that you found you would "react to threats very late" in BJJ. It did seem as though you were meant to illustrate why.

I'd like to hear more about awareness being low to the ground as opposed to? Also, moving on the ground. I assume you meant you didn't know how to move on the ground? I hope. Perhaps all this is covered in Part II?

Uncommonly fine vid quality for youtube, and you did it without cutting. A few of the 6 second pauses might have been shorter, but you had 8 minutes of material to present. The more you talk it out, the smoother that will go, just like any other well practiced material. I wonder if breaking it into separate 4 minute clips would be beneficial. The first on introduction and on ukemi, the second half on timing/sensitivity, and perhaps one more 4 minute segment expounding on the translation of potential benefits back from BJJ

anyhow, thanks for the video.

michael.

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 08:20 PM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido and BJJ Discussion

For me in BJJ, I tend to be somewhat reactive in nature rather than attack. This is why I lose alot.

I think the reason I do this is, that in Aikido Nage is typically acting in response to Uke and gets rewarded from the attack. We feed off the energy that uke gives us.

In BJJ "Uke" attacks and attacks and attacks. Done well, and you are always behind the power curve as "Nage". It can be difficult to ever catch back up again. Against a good opponent you will not.

So typically attacking well is rewarded in BJJ. Although not always, it depends on the experience of the two persons rolling.

So, I too tend to "respond late" many times. Moving back and forth between aikido and BJJ practice can mess you timing a little bit as sometimes the training goals are slightly different.

As the attacker in aikido I am trying to present a good clean, well centered, intentioned and appropriate attack so nage can work with it. (cooperative to a degree).

As the attacker in BJJ, I am trying to defeat Nage period, and Nage must learn to deal with it period. He will lose until he gets it right.

There really isn't alot of difference when you get down to it. I am sure someone will bring that up...but it is enough of a difference in my mind, that it messes up my timing sometimes.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:58 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate