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Old 09-01-2009, 08:46 PM   #1
tim evans
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In the moment....transitioning into another technique

I know this is advanced for me being a newbie but my question is if during training my uke resists or fights what technique I,m doing can I "transition" into another technique or would that be disrespecting the instructor. just putting it out there.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:34 PM   #2
Erick Mead
 
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
I know this is advanced for me being a newbie but my question is if during training my uke resists or fights what technique I,m doing can I "transition" into another technique or would that be disrespecting the instructor. just putting it out there.
YOU shouldn't, until it (the henka waza) is not only not your choice -- but a seeming inevitability from what just happened. If you aren't there to learn what is begin taught -- why are you there? The teacher may be good or bad, but it does not matter.

I have always learned more from respectfully watching a poor teacher, than in disregarding a good one.

But ASK, especially if you do see the opening but are unsure why or what should be the correct response.

Have fun.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:20 PM   #3
tim evans
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
YOU shouldn't, until it (the henka waza) is not only not your choice -- but a seeming inevitability from what just happened. If you aren't there to learn what is begin taught -- why are you there? The teacher may be good or bad, but it does not matter.

I have always learned more from respectfully watching a poor teacher, than in disregarding a good one.

But ASK, especially if you do see the opening but are unsure why or what should be the correct response.

Have fun.
Eric I don,t mean do another technique differrent from what the instructor has shown If I have a uke who is resisting/fighting my technique in omote for example and I go ura thats what I,m trying to ask is that wrong?
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:28 PM   #4
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Eric I don,t mean do another technique differrent from what the instructor has shown If I have a uke who is resisting/fighting my technique in omote for example and I go ura thats what I,m trying to ask is that wrong?
If you are a newbie, then you are BOTH wrong! Your uke should be "fighting" you, and you should not be trying to change directions. It should be a mutual exchange so that you can learn how to properly move your body and do the technique correctly. Your uke should assist you in this and then later on in your training, offer some slight resistance in order to help you improve your technique to another level. There should NEVER be any "fighting."

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Old 09-01-2009, 10:28 PM   #5
ChrisHein
 
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

You must learn the forms first. Learning how they don't work, and why, is just as important as learning how and when the do work.

For now (about the next year or two depending on your own personal growth) don't change technique unless a teacher tells you to.

You can not force your Aikido, it is going to take time. Do things in their proper order and you'll be all the better for it. Rush things, and you'll end up knowing half as much as you could.

Take it easy is my general advice, accept difficult uke's and learn from them. Teach your ego to let go.

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Old 09-01-2009, 10:52 PM   #6
Voitokas
 
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Yeah - what ChrisHein said. There are many bad ukes, from mukyu to the dan levels; it is easy as uke to let your preconceived notion of a technique stop a working technique in its tracks. As nage, part of what you're learning (and what's the most difficult to learn) is leading uke. Techniques are not just reactive, i.e. you are not only going with the flow, changing when uke changes - rather, part of trying to master a technique is creating a pattern that uke falls into, so that uke is reacting and you are leading. You may feel like uke is fighting you (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't), but if uke doesn't feel led, that means there's something you need to work on. I know, the first years are frustrating! (So are the ones that come afterwards)

That said, every once in a while it's fun to switch up on a particularly recalcitrant uke, just to keep them awake. Unfortunately, that's always when sensei will look over at you and see that you're not doing what s/he taught, and then it's "yes, sensei... sorry, sensei... yes, sensei.... thank you, sensei"... <sigh>.

Better to push through, and think about where the flow of leading uke is getting clogged up so that they feel like they should fight you...

I am not an expert
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:27 PM   #7
Rob Watson
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

We do this sometimes on purpose but with a purpose. Uke resists in the sense of staying well balanced and right on the edge of executing a reversal. This way any form break or loss of connection really makes it hard to do the technique so it is amazingly helpful feedback.

Usually this is done progressively so uke (always an advanced or senior) does this primarily to test the juniors ability and then adjusts accordingly to keep just on the edge of the juniors ability.

If this is done too much or in a careless way it is detrimental so there is a fine line between enhanced learinng and just BS ego tripping.

I always look forward to these sessions with my seniors because it really keeps me honest. I still can't do ikkyu very well even though sometimes I think I can.

The other posters are correct in that one must do as sensei has demonstrated even if sempai are not doing it as you saw you must go with what you think you saw sensei demonstrate. Let sensei give the corrections. You will know when sempai is aligned with sensei in this respect and when they are not and so will they so there is no need to point it out. Just keep trying to do what you think sensei demonstrated.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-02-2009, 12:26 AM   #8
jss
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

If your technique fails for whatever reason you have two choices: try to transition to something else (variation of the technique or a different technique altogether) or stop trying to do anything and ask for a new attack. I can think of no good reason to go with the second option while training a martial art. It teaches you to give up when things do not go according to your expectations instead of how to deal with it.
Just don't turn training into a wrestling match and don't let the transitioning get in the way of figuring out what went wrong in the original technique.
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Old 09-02-2009, 12:34 AM   #9
Abasan
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

When you train to drive a circle, your instructor won't give you a square pattern. If uke gives you a square tell him for now you want a circle from him.

Following your basic understanding of driving a circle, square or whatever shape, then he puts you on a normal road. That's when you do what ever is acceptable ie circle square etc. Uke can give whatever shape to you and all you have to do is fit something into that shape. You could like most toddlers try to bash a square into a round hole, or you could be more successful, if you use the appropriate shape instead.

Similarly, you're trying to learn the form of ikkyo, nikkyo etc from attack type a, b, c or d... then you have to do that form regardless. Once you know the form, the teacher can have his students attack you with whatever, now you do whatever is natural.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:13 AM   #10
tim evans
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Agree with all the above but to clarify this happens with one certain uke and I am working through it this isn,t 2 alpha males thumping there chests for supremecy, but if uke or thug in bar pushes or pulls in his attack why not give him what he wants and go with him I know sensei would be pissed if I did something other than what is taught but when your given lemons you make lemonade.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:41 AM   #11
Amir Krause
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

While I think all the answers above are correct, I would like to give a slightly different answer: Do as your teacher instructs, there are more options then one:

Some places, when Sensei demostrates, he expects you to do exactly the same. Other places, you may have more freedom in variations.

Some cases, Sempai is adapting the situation \ techinque to fit you, and not the whole group, as part of his role as an assitent instructor. Other cases, the Sempai is disrupting the Kata Sensei teaches.

Some cases, applying a variation helps the harmonyof yourself and Uke, and after you did it once - you will be able to train in the Kata Sensei pointed. Other cases - you will only train differing variations and never learn the intended lesson.

The real snwer is situation dependent. As a Sempai to most in the group (started training ~1990), in most cases I change things as Uke and resist, I follow previous guidlines set by my Sensei to help my Kohai to learn something. However, I too make mistakes (also in this behavior) as Sensei shows me....

Amir
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Old 09-02-2009, 08:08 AM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Huge difference between uke and thug in bar. I hope... I would not look for rules that apply to both situations.

If you have issues with one particular uke, then I would look at your relationship with that one particular uke. Perhaps have a chat with them after class and ask their opinion of what happens when the two of you are training. Take advantage of open classes or after class training to get to know them a bit better in a less formal environment on the mat, where they can give verbal feedback as well as physical feedback.

After a time, you'll be able to make a better decision / judgement about what is going on, and then decide what to do accordingly.

An easier route is to just ask the instructor to watch while the two of you work on the waza at hand. Then proceed as the instructor directs. Their response should tell you a lot.

Or you could do a) and b).

Best,
Ron (rinse and repeat as often as needed...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:01 AM   #13
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Tim,
As a newbie myself, IMHO, it all falls on you. Here are some things that you might want to check: 1) you may have moved late, 2) there was an opening in your technique that allowed him to regain control/balance, 3) you might be colliding with him giving him something to resist to, and maybe 4) you did not perform with confidence.
Allow me to explain:
On #1: once maai is broken you need to move- when he is committed to the attack and he knows he got you this is when you move.
Lets go to #3: lineup to his attack and let him continue on the same direction (initially)- this way you don't collide. If the technique involves grabbing, grab lightly so you don't disturb him (thus colliding).
Now on #2: You need to see the technique in your mind already completed- this way you move almost in one motion, no stops. I normally find this difficult when I'm learning a technique.
On #4: This is when you know the movements and the requirements on the technique and you just have to perform it and trust in yourself that the technique will work.
And also I being from a Ki Society flavor, relax, shoulders down, elbows down. Did I mention relax?

Hope this help even by a bit. Have fun figuring it out man!

Plus Ki
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:22 AM   #14
lbb
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

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Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Agree with all the above but to clarify this happens with one certain uke and I am working through it this isn,t 2 alpha males thumping there chests for supremecy, but if uke or thug in bar pushes or pulls in his attack why not give him what he wants and go with him
You're mooshing sentences together here, Tim, and also mooshing together ideas that don't belong together. The hypothetical much-feared thug in a bar is one thing, uke is another. You should not think of them the same way, and you should not treat them the same way. There are several ways you could go in resolving this difficulty you're having in your training, but you need to get all those, "Yes, but what if some thug in a bar..." ideas out of your head first. They have nothing to do with that situation.

You say that this is one particular individual -- what's his experience level? Let me take a wild guess -- is he fairly junior himself?
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:33 AM   #15
tim evans
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're mooshing sentences together here, Tim, and also mooshing together ideas that don't belong together. The hypothetical much-feared thug in a bar is one thing, uke is another. You should not think of them the same way, and you should not treat them the same way. There are several ways you could go in resolving this difficulty you're having in your training, but you need to get all those, "Yes, but what if some thug in a bar..." ideas out of your head first. They have nothing to do with that situation.

You say that this is one particular individual -- what's his experience level? Let me take a wild guess -- is he fairly junior himself?
Mary, the uke/thug analogy was strong and I do apoligize my point was if my uke pushes/pulls during the technique do I give them what they want but not in the same context as a thug/bar scenario my bad on that analogy another point your correct on he is a beginner like myself were all in this together it,s a win-win for both I just don,t understand the stronger than normal resistance.TIM Got to go to class to work on this .
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:34 AM   #16
tim evans
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

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Larry Cuvin wrote: View Post
Tim,
As a newbie myself, IMHO, it all falls on you. Here are some things that you might want to check: 1) you may have moved late, 2) there was an opening in your technique that allowed him to regain control/balance, 3) you might be colliding with him giving him something to resist to, and maybe 4) you did not perform with confidence.
Allow me to explain:
On #1: once maai is broken you need to move- when he is committed to the attack and he knows he got you this is when you move.
Lets go to #3: lineup to his attack and let him continue on the same direction (initially)- this way you don't collide. If the technique involves grabbing, grab lightly so you don't disturb him (thus colliding).
Now on #2: You need to see the technique in your mind already completed- this way you move almost in one motion, no stops. I normally find this difficult when I'm learning a technique.
On #4: This is when you know the movements and the requirements on the technique and you just have to perform it and trust in yourself that the technique will work.
And also I being from a Ki Society flavor, relax, shoulders down, elbows down. Did I mention relax?

Hope this help even by a bit. Have fun figuring it out man!
Larry going to class to try and figure this out TIM
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:56 AM   #17
Amir Krause
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Mary, the uke/thug analogy was strong and I do apoligize my point was if my uke pushes/pulls during the technique do I give them what they want but not in the same context as a thug/bar scenario my bad on that analogy another point your correct on he is a beginner like myself were all in this together it,s a win-win for both I just don,t understand the stronger than normal resistance.TIM Got to go to class to work on this .
If you are both beginners, you should learn the technique, and he should just let you do it. Of course he can resist, you do not know the technique well enough yet. For the same reason - He should not resist - you learn to make a step, then two then a walk and only later to run - same here.

Onve he resumes and you find it difficult, ask Sensei, or a Sempai to watch over. This should solve the problem.

One of them will explain to him that you are now doing Kata, and you are not in a fight, nor should you imitate a fight situation. The situation is defined, he knows your response, fights do not happen this way.

Amir
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Old 09-02-2009, 03:06 PM   #18
Phil Van Treese
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

If I am working with an uke and he doesn't like to cooperate, I owe it to him/her to ask them to cooperate with the technique. If they don't like to cooperate or they continue to choose not to cooperate for whatever reason, I will drop them in a heartbeat and then tell them, in no uncertain terms, that we are to do what the instr has taught us. With cooperation, we all learn. If someone doesn't like to cooperate then they are taking away a chance to learn. That is pure ego and that we don't need.
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Old 09-02-2009, 03:57 PM   #19
lbb
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Mary, the uke/thug analogy was strong and I do apoligize my point was if my uke pushes/pulls during the technique do I give them what they want but not in the same context as a thug/bar scenario my bad on that analogy another point your correct on he is a beginner like myself were all in this together it,s a win-win for both I just don,t understand the stronger than normal resistance.TIM Got to go to class to work on this .
Well, by "stronger than normal resistance", do you mean that he resists more strongly than most ukes...or that he resists only you more strongly than he resists other people? The answer may make a difference in how this should be handled...and then again, it may not. The best solution, I think, is not to play games with him, and it's not to try and instruct him. I'd just say, "I don't think I'm doing this right, could we get sensei to watch?" and let sensei handle it. If he's not taking ukemi as he should, sensei will get that sorted out.
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:09 PM   #20
Mark Freeman
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Re: In the moment....transitioning into another technique

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
An easier route is to just ask the instructor to watch while the two of you work on the waza at hand. Then proceed as the instructor directs. Their response should tell you a lot.
Although there are some interesting responses to the original post, surely Ron's advice is the most useful?

I am always slightly bemused by some of the 'technical' questions brought to the forums by fairly new students. Why ask a bunch of unknown aikidoka (ok, ok, some of you are known ) for advice, when your teacher is there for exactly that reason, isn't it a bit disrespectful? I'm just trying to imagine how I would respond if one of my students was doing something I hadn't instructed and if I asked why he/she was doing it that way, they replied, "someone on the internet suggested I do it this way"

Having said that, I'm not saying don't try to learn anything from here on the forums! there are some excellent posters and some really sage advice. I have learnt a great deal about the wider world of aikido, but if I want a technical question answered the first stop is always my teacher, so far he has always managed to deliver, if I ever felt that he couldn't I may have to search elsewhere. That time is still a long way off

regards,

Mark

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