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Old 01-29-2008, 11:49 AM   #76
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

I'm not srue that anything makes it special...Its one way that folks doing aikido can get an introduction to developing the skills that Ueshiba S had.
I agree with the more religious significance part..

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 01-29-2008, 12:16 PM   #77
jss
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Endurance swimming is not measured in speed -- but in hours of time making progress in water while not drowning. The non sequitur you made, without really thinking about it, is, I think, similar to the disconnect between some participants that frequently happens in discussions on this topic in budo.
I never mentioned endurance swimming, only interval training to enhance endurance. The lack of reading skills that you displayed, without really thinking about it, is, I think, quite common among some participants that frequently participate in discussions on this topic in budo.
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Old 01-29-2008, 09:07 PM   #78
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I never mentioned endurance swimming, only interval training to enhance endurance.
Oh, really?
Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
[What if Takeda taught Ueshiba swimming and weight lifting. And Deguchi taught him how to train endurance through interval training. As a result of Deguchi's training method, Ueshiba starts to swim significantly faster.
Perhaps the words in bold were meant to be read in, say, Turkish? Or did you mean the competitive sport of "endurance weightlifting ?" Or did you mean to say that interval training improves endurance weightlifting?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
The lack of reading skills that you displayed, without really thinking about it, is, I think, quite common among some participants that frequently participate in discussions on this topic in budo.
"Not really thinking about it" is not my kind of error; the overthinking errors are more my style.

It was a simple, and easily overlooked fallacy in your argument, which reveals an interesting observation of a part of the recurrent conflict, not a moral flaw or criticism. Get over it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:19 PM   #79
Upyu
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Fight!, Fight!, Fight!

In all seriousness though, perhaps we could quit the (polite) mudslinging and discuss Chinkon Kishin and related trainings.

My question, as an aikido noob, is what makes Chinkon Kishin special? My background is in CMA and I have been exposed to several different qigongs, which makes me wonder, is Chinkon Kishin any different or any better?

My inexperienced eyes tell me that Chinkon Kishin has more religious significance than martial significance. Is this what some people think led to Osensei's internal power? Some rowing exercises, balance shifting, and deep breathing? Would it be a faux pas to say that Osensei's appears to have poor structural alignment when he performs this?

Regardless, What are other people's experiences with Chinkon Kishin or any other type of qigong/jibengong?

Take Care all

-Blake
Structural alignment is only a stage I think.
Once you develop a certain amount of conditioning you can transmit power even with poor "structural alignment."
Anyways, its pretty easy to see Ueshiba's power releases in some of the flicks out there on the web. That being said, don't discount that he may have been doing things sloppy for the camera
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:44 AM   #80
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Robert John wrote: View Post
That being said, don't discount that he may have been doing things sloppy for the camera
Why do you think that?
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:58 AM   #81
jss
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Oh, really?
Really. I mentioned "swimming" and "endurance", but not "endurance swimming".

Quote:
Perhaps the words in bold were meant to be read in, say, Turkish? Or did you mean the competitive sport of "endurance weightlifting ?" Or did you mean to say that interval training improves endurance weightlifting?
I'm Dutch, not Turkish, thank you.
And I still don't get how the only conclusion you manage to draw from me mentioning "swimming", "endurance training" and "swimming faster" is that I was referring to endurance swimming. Perhaps I was referring to speed swimming? That's not too unlikely if I state "swimming significantly faster" as the goal, now is it? And if you disagree with me about the benefits of endurance training for speed swimming, the fallacy you attribute to me would be one of fact, not of logic.
You might have a point if you said I could have expressed my thoughts more clearly, but for now you're just someone who's trying too hard to disagree. The fact that you're disagreeing with the example I used and not with my actual point, only supports this.

Quote:
It was a simple, and easily overlooked fallacy in your argument, which reveals an interesting observation of a part of the recurrent conflict, not a moral flaw or criticism. Get over it.
I thought you had a sense of humor. Lighten up.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:50 AM   #82
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
And I still don't get how the only conclusion you manage to draw from me mentioning "swimming", "endurance training" and "swimming faster" is that I was referring to endurance swimming.
"Swimming" was the only subject as to which the predicates of both "endurance" and "interval training" and the resultant "faster" could reasonably refer, confirmed by your stating "swimming" faster.

Competing arguments on these topics while superficially seeming engaged, are as often fundamentally disconnected from one another as your two statements are, because endurance does not equal speed, while both aspects have separate importance. I was just trying to point out one source and a pattern of a type of disagreement on this range of topics, which, you have now helpfully illustrated, in further detail...

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I thought you had a sense of humor. Lighten up.
Internal art. I laugh on the inside.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:04 AM   #83
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Ok, you guys cut it out, or I'll start calling you Dan and Mike...

Oops, I'm probably going to pay for that one, rather shortly...

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-30-2008, 11:31 AM   #84
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Structural alignment is only a stage I think.
Once you develop a certain amount of conditioning you can transmit power even with poor "structural alignment."
Anyways, its pretty easy to see Ueshiba's power releases in some of the flicks out there on the web. That being said, don't discount that he may have been doing things sloppy for the camera
Hello Mr. John

Would you say that structural alignment is stage one, then working with the intrinsic (chi/ki) energy through various pathways is the next stage? Could you say what you have noticed as far as "stages" in development at Aunkai beginning with newbie day one all the way up to Ark?

You make a valid point that Ueshiba obviously had the goods. I don't dispute that, but the discussion is whether Chinkon Kishin is the mechanism responsible for or in some way increasing Ueshiba's considerable internal power.

Great points Mr John, I look forward to your reply.

-Blake
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #85
jss
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Competing arguments on these topics while superficially seeming engaged, are as often fundamentally disconnected from one another as your two statements are, because endurance does not equal speed, while both aspects have separate importance. I was just trying to point out one source and a pattern of a type of disagreement on this range of topics, which, you have now helpfully illustrated, in further detail...
My further illustrating of your point resulted in you further explaining your point, so that now I get your point. There still are several ways I could continue this discussion, but none of them will prove (imho) to be interesting to either of us, let alone all the other people on this forum.

Edit: To Ron, couldn't you have posted like an hour later?

Last edited by jss : 01-30-2008 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #86
ChrisMoses
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Just a couple comments.

I've done Chinkon Kishin (with a focus on shin kokyu) with Anno Sensei on several occasions, granted it was always in a seminar format (as opposed to one on one). We started pretty much every class with it. He was obviously working something when he was doing it. However, it was not until I was exposed to the Aunkai basics that I could really find much useful information in the series of movements. So while it's possible that this *could* be one of the places that the good stuff is hidden in plain sight, it was not taught (at least to me) in a way that really made that stuff approachable. It felt much more like a spiritual/cleansing exercise and less of a way to teach internal skills. I know I just went through the motions, but there was also no attempt to offer the kinds of specifics that *I* needed to actually approach any kind of deeper physical lessons. I suppose it's possible that if I had stood under a waterfall for 20 years doing the shin kokyu practice that I would have found these Truths, or perhaps changed by body sufficiently to embody these skills. I dunno. I'm kinda busy, so didn't have time to find out.

What gets difficult for me to distinguish is how much meaning I'm laying over these kinds of exercises *knowing what I do now*. Even with the rudimentary understanding I now have, I see opportunities to practice/study internal dynamics in basically everything I do, not just in the Aunkai exercises, qigong or shin kokyu. Once you really start playing with This Stuff (tm) it starts to become just how you are, so everything becomes an opportunity for study. The first time I met Rob, we talked about opening doors. Not metaphorically, but how every time you learn a new system of movement or structural principle, you start opening doors differently. It's both a reflection of how you as a physical being change, and an opportunity to continue your study. (Right now I'm favoring a similar mechanic to the forearm-grinder Aunkai exercise for most of my door opening needs, I'm kind of combining it with a closed to open power generation thingy, just in case anyone was wondering )

So, am I actually seeing deeper teachings in these exercises or am I inserting my own study into them (just as I am with opening the bathroom door)? I don't know. Clint George was just in town and I only got to stop by for a couple hours of his seminar. I had hoped to pick his brain at the party on Sat about this very subject, but alas, my daughter was not having it. Maybe next time.

Chris Moses
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:01 PM   #87
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Just a couple comments.

I've done Chinkon Kishin (with a focus on shin kokyu) with Anno Sensei on several occasions, granted it was always in a seminar format (as opposed to one on one). We started pretty much every class with it. He was obviously working something when he was doing it. However, it was not until I was exposed to the Aunkai basics that I could really find much useful information in the series of movements. So while it's possible that this *could* be one of the places that the good stuff is hidden in plain sight, it was not taught (at least to me) in a way that really made that stuff approachable. It felt much more like a spiritual/cleansing exercise and less of a way to teach internal skills. I know I just went through the motions, but there was also no attempt to offer the kinds of specifics that *I* needed to actually approach any kind of deeper physical lessons. I suppose it's possible that if I had stood under a waterfall for 20 years doing the shin kokyu practice that I would have found these Truths, or perhaps changed by body sufficiently to embody these skills. I dunno. I'm kinda busy, so didn't have time to find out.

What gets difficult for me to distinguish is how much meaning I'm laying over these kinds of exercises *knowing what I do now*. Even with the rudimentary understanding I now have, I see opportunities to practice/study internal dynamics in basically everything I do, not just in the Aunkai exercises, qigong or shin kokyu. Once you really start playing with This Stuff (tm) it starts to become just how you are, so everything becomes an opportunity for study. The first time I met Rob, we talked about opening doors. Not metaphorically, but how every time you learn a new system of movement or structural principle, you start opening doors differently. It's both a reflection of how you as a physical being change, and an opportunity to continue your study. (Right now I'm favoring a similar mechanic to the forearm-grinder Aunkai exercise for most of my door opening needs, I'm kind of combining it with a closed to open power generation thingy, just in case anyone was wondering )

So, am I actually seeing deeper teachings in these exercises or am I inserting my own study into them (just as I am with opening the bathroom door)? I don't know. Clint George was just in town and I only got to stop by for a couple hours of his seminar. I had hoped to pick his brain at the party on Sat about this very subject, but alas, my daughter was not having it. Maybe next time.
I didn't share personal experiences earlier because when this was existing on the Transmission/Inheritance thread it didn't seem appropriate . . .

I think Chris makes some good points. Once one starts to get "IT" the external forms increasingly can be seen as a means rather than an end and one begins to see how other's, and all, external forms can be a means to "IT." Obviously if one doesn't have "IT" yet this understanding is less likely to take place and one become more inclined to "wed" one form or another while searching for "IT" or believing they have "IT" and it is solely contained within a certain form, practice or teacher. As a consequence, forms can be passed along bereft of any direct experience of "IT" or any understanding leading to "IT."

I think that the subject of Chikonkishin is further clouded by the issue of spiritual development. Within Tantra the physical/Spiritual realms are not seen as mutually exclusive but rather mutually inclusive. One either manifests understanding or non-understanding in all realms simultaneously. Most folks pursue these things as mutually exclusive entities which I don't think is the manner in which Ueshiba sensei pursued them. Consequently, there was a potential for miscommunication, and like the telephone game, it only gets worse with time.

Discovering the physical/spiritual "IT" within the physical forms of Chikonkishin is, in my opinion, a rather difficult thing to do. It seems to pre-suppose some knowledge, instruction, and rudimentary manifestation. I seriously doubt that this was originally taught without some form of preliminary physical/spiritual practice. I also suspect that this is why teachers like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Tohei appended basic solo body movement forms, and in some cases breath/meditative practices to their teaching curriculums. Like the beginning Aunkai practices it can be much easier to find the beginnings of "IT" (with good explicit instruction) within these forms than within more compounded/complex practices (which I suspect Aunkai teaches too later on.)

Oops. Got interrupted and lost my choo choo of thought. That's all for now!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:48 PM   #88
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Ah I remember now . . .

One more thing. It is an unfortunate reality that, despite one's best efforts, one's presuppositions, prejudices and mode of perception can effectively blind one from even the most explicit of instruction.

To use a personal example, I was taught Kokyu Dosa (in many forms but the primary one being agete) much in the same way that Ark teaches Agete in the Aunkai. I was also taught many, many waza variations off of this form (Daito Ryu). For a long time I concentrated on developing the mechanical/tactical/mental skills to execute these waza on an actively resisting opponent. I pretty much avoided the "rudimentary" Agete alone practice just as I did with the Shiko that I was taught. I dutifully taught them BUT I didn't work on them too much because I saw them as antiquated progressive resistance training which I could do "better" with weights in the gym. I did (and do) practice the Tandokudosa I was taught by Shirata sensei and my understanding and development improved on these with each decade. Finally (or not), one bright sunny day, I was working with one of my students relating all of the "stuff" one should do with the breath, mind, body and, "Theoretically you should be able to just do agete without reverting to waza out of necessity." Bam! He goes up. I ask him to hold me down with everything he's got. Bam! He goes up. So I let him know what I'm doing and he produces a similar result. So then I wonder . . . and hold him down using the same principles that I would to go up. Clunk! He's stuck. I have him do the same, with more or less the same results. So it seems that there is such a thing as a ratio, or balance, of power no matter the source.

I relate all of this as an example. I wasn't doing anything "new" or "different" from what I had been previously shown by my teacher on the outside or the inside. What was "new" and "different" was that I was finally beginning to understand and do what my teacher had previously shown without interfering presupposition. AND, it changed everything to a degree because I saw (yet again) how this was intended to be taught from the first and fill and sustain everything that came afterward. How would I teach it? Pretty much exactly as it was taught to me. I don't see how it could be made more explicit.

BTW, this was all pre-Aunkai training and experience. My Aunkai experience has served to emphasize that my understanding (such as it is) is on the right track.

Now, if I could just have a deltoid-ectomy I might REALLY get somewhere!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:59 PM   #89
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

One more thing, I am not advocating the use of partner practice for the building up of "IT." Presently, I see solo practice as one's best primary source, partner practice as a good secondary builder (when done correctly) and bridge to application of power (and I'm not referring to waza.) With partner practice one must stay in the realm of pushing the envelope without breaking down completely. I would define "breaking down" as reverting to old neuromuscular patterns. One doesn't profit from reinforcing old (inexpedient) habits either mental or physical.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:14 PM   #90
ChrisMoses
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Now, if I could just have a deltoid-ectomy I might REALLY get somewhere!
Just do the Aunkai walking cross drills for an hour or so before every class, that usually renders mine completely flaccid for at least the remainder of class.

/dang I'm helpful!

Chris Moses
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:36 PM   #91
Upyu
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Hello Mr. John
Would you say that structural alignment is stage one, then working with the intrinsic (chi/ki) energy through various pathways is the next stage? Could you say what you have noticed as far as "stages" in development at Aunkai beginning with newbie day one all the way up to Ark?
You make a valid point that Ueshiba obviously had the goods. I don't dispute that, but the discussion is whether Chinkon Kishin is the mechanism responsible for or in some way increasing Ueshiba's considerable internal power.
Hi Blake,

In answer to your first question,
step 1) Understanding and utilizing basic structural alignment, and recognizing the existence of certain physical "pathways" in the body.
step 2) Taking these pathways and structure and strengthening them.

step 1&2 fall into the "Frame" stage.
Conceptually, its like keeping a set of training wheels on. You strengthen things and develop them within the context of a set "frame."
This lasts for a long time (I haven't even begun to scratch the surface really)

step 3) Start to disolve the "Frame"/training wheels. At this point you don't need "good" structure to necessarily execute techniques.
The conditioning of the pathways, and of the body can support loads, and exert force in ways that are unusual to anyone that hasn't trained this before.

That's a really condensed version of what happens.
I'm definitely only at step 2

As for whether Chinkon Kinshin was at the heart of Ueshiba's development...can't say for sure. My guess was that it was working his conditioning even further than the other spear/sword work that he used to do.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:13 PM   #92
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
step 1) Understanding and utilizing basic structural alignment, and recognizing the existence of certain physical "pathways" in the body.
step 2) Taking these pathways and structure and strengthening them.

step 1&2 fall into the "Frame" stage.
Conceptually, its like keeping a set of training wheels on. You strengthen things and develop them within the context of a set "frame."
This lasts for a long time (I haven't even begun to scratch the surface really)

step 3) Start to disolve the "Frame"/training wheels. At this point you don't need "good" structure to necessarily execute techniques.
The conditioning of the pathways, and of the body can support loads, and exert force in ways that are unusual to anyone that hasn't trained this before.
I re read recently your description of Aunkai exercises and the whole cross contradictory tension frame. What struck me as I re-read this is that most of what you are actually doing is exhausting the more typically voluntary postural musculature, which, at the end of a training period, you point out how exhausting it should be and Chris points out reverts "tight" components of strucure into a very loose "structure." Or from most people's perspective, not much structure at all

This is actually NOT the case, but what it changes into is not usually understood by people as "structure". It is converting the mental concept and inherent physical dynamic of the body structure from "trabeated" (a fancy word meaning post-and-beam), to a "funicular" structure (another fancy word meaning formed by cables or chains). There is an engineering principle of supporting structure called the funicular load curve, or sometimes, for point loads, the funicular polygon, whereby whether in compression or tension the loads follow that curve in any stable structure.

I point this out only because my epiphany on a related aspect of training came in Saito's training paradigm, after my first deployment when I had done little but weapons suburi and slooooow shadow-boxing kata of various aikido waza, quite intensely, for six months aboard ship since I had no training partner. That kind of structural exhaustion was a powerful component of the feeling at the end of training, where straight limbs became loosely hung, wiggly, and yet suburi became MORE powerful, not less.

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
As for whether Chinkon Kinshin was at the heart of Ueshiba's development...can't say for sure. My guess was that it was working his conditioning even further than the other spear/sword work that he used to do.
The two are directly related, as with the "divine techniques" he used to do with the jo with the center-drive spirals and the "spearing-heaven" jabs

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:28 PM   #93
ChrisMoses
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What struck me as I re-read this is that most of what you are actually doing is exhausting the more typically voluntary postural musculature, which, at the end of a training period, you point out how exhausting it should be and Chris points out reverts "tight" components of strucure into a very loose "structure." Or from most people's perspective, not much structure at all

This is actually NOT the case, but what it changes into is not usually understood by people as "structure". It is converting the mental concept and inherent physical dynamic of the body structure from "trabeated" (a fancy word meaning post-and-beam), to a "funicular" structure (another fancy word meaning formed by cables or chains).
No, that was not what I was saying at all. The structure does not become loose. It is a dynamic yet rigid stucture. It is selectively rigid and loose, often rigid where most people are loose, and loose where most people are rigid. It's a re-wiring of the way you move.

I have a Physics degree so I understand what you're saying with the fancy words. That's not really what's going on, at least not what I'm doing. I don't speak for the Aunkai, I'm just me.

Do yourself a favor, and get out and actually feel it before you describe what it is.

Chris Moses
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:15 PM   #94
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
No, that was not what I was saying at all. The structure does not become loose. It is a dynamic yet rigid stucture. It is selectively rigid and loose, often rigid where most people are loose, and loose where most people are rigid. It's a re-wiring of the way you move.
I get that. I was not ascribing to you the concept that the structure in particular use is necessarily rigid or flaccid -- you just pointed out a result of your training is a flaccidity of (presumably tight to begin with), underlying structures. Whereas compression structures are preferentially rigid in all conditions, the cable in tension is rigid, and if tension is released -- is loose. This has dynamic implications as well as stability effects

It seemed that aspect we have in common from our respective experiences. They both relate to a variant idea from the commonplace understandings about stability structures -- not rigid mass columns, span-beams and cantilevers, rather Euler columns, guyed stability and using buckling gyration as a primary dynamic. Manipulating multiple inverted pendula (as I view the balance system, (respectively the lower body, upper body and head). The Aunkai paradigm (at least as Rob describes it in his earlier and extensive posts), isolates in various ways the lower, middle and upper pendula so that they can be examined and trained independently, and I presume, (although his exposition has not really gone that far yet ) later coordinated more closely.

As I view the Chinkon Kishin and related kokyu undo they train the coordination of these more dynamically and often simultaneously, Being more complex it is not necessarily easier or faster than a reductive method, such as I see in Rob's exposition of the Aunkai training. depending on the student's innate learning style.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Do yourself a favor, and get out and actually feel it before you describe what it is.
I am not describing what you do, merely noting an aspect of what you yourself observed about your own training. I am describing my own experience, as I have mentioned before, in things that to me seem related. Whether what you are doing is useful for you is what counts --it does not really speak to me, whereas the chinkon kishin elements do.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:10 AM   #95
Upyu
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I re read recently your description of Aunkai exercises and the whole cross contradictory tension frame. What struck me as I re-read this is that most of what you are actually doing is exhausting the more typically voluntary postural musculature, which, at the end of a training period, <snip>
Hi Erick,

Well first off, we'd have to meet to hammer out anything definite, that being said if I were a betting person, I'd wager a lot that you're off the mark.

The musculature being exhausted is only a side effect of the training, there's a lot more involved in the exercises than that.
Also, the musculature that's being exhausted tend to be the major muscle groups (not the deeper postural muscles inside the groin, close to the spine, and inside the illial psoas), simply because people tend to flex/use these muscles first out of sheer habit.
If the postural muscles were engaged in a meaningful way that would be a good thing! Unfortunately it takes a while to access and develop these parts, although it definitely does eventually work them in a certain manner.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
This is actually NOT the case, but what it changes into is not usually understood by people as "structure". It is converting the mental concept and inherent physical dynamic of the body structure from "trabeated" (a fancy word meaning post-and-beam), to a "funicular" structure (another fancy word meaning formed by cables or chains). There is an engineering principle of supporting structure called the funicular load curve, or sometimes, for point loads, the funicular polygon, whereby whether in compression or tension the loads follow that curve in any stable structure.
I disagree,
you are right that it does change the mental concept gradually, but the body physically changes over time because it conditions certain physical aspects that we wouldn't generally associate as being able to be conditioned. But, you have to be aware of these components first, and how they align etc.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I point this out only because my epiphany on a related aspect of training came in Saito's training paradigm, after my first deployment when I had done little but weapons suburi and slooooow shadow-boxing kata of various aikido waza, quite intensely, for six months aboard ship since I had no training partner. That kind of structural exhaustion was a powerful component of the feeling at the end of training, where straight limbs became loosely hung, wiggly, and yet suburi became MORE powerful, not less.
I'll take a stab at this.
I'm not you, so obviously I could be wrong, but it sounds to me you had a breakthrough in relaxing the body. Which is great for what it is, but not necessarily what we're doing.
I had a background in doing CMA-based mantis training, which is basically all striking basics done with arms extended to develop a "feel" for what it means to be loose and not to tense the shoulders.
Again, great stuff, but it's elementary preparation for what comes next. The manipulation of the body on the inside is something completely different.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The Aunkai paradigm (at least as Rob describes it in his earlier and extensive posts), isolates in various ways the lower, middle and upper pendula so that they can be examined and trained independently, and I presume, (although his exposition has not really gone that far yet ) later coordinated more closely.
Ok, so for me, this statement for me pretty much seals it.
The upper is stabilized (but not isolated), nor are the middle and lower isolated.
Plus, if as you've hinted that we "coordinate" the upper, middle, and lower, meaning that you do something similar, then you're definitely way off the mark, at least with regards as to what we do.
The upper, middle and lower are quite literally connected. Meaning if I raise my leg slightly, the conditioned element in my body will quite literally cause movement to happen in my arm (which one is dependent on intent, and which pathway I use), because it passes force through my body in a different manner. Same thing goes with a "through the back" connection. If I, to put it in an extreme way, move my fingers on one hand, you'll see a corresponding movement (slightly weaker) on the fingers of my opposite hand, but not because I "coordinate" them.
There is a HUGE difference between "coordinating" the body and physically "connecting" it.
Anyways, that's my 2c.

We may be dropping by the east coast sometime in May.
I suggest you get up and have a feel for yourself

If I'm wrong, and you were totally on the mark and you do the same/similar things we do, drinks are on me
Rob

Last edited by Upyu : 01-31-2008 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:33 AM   #96
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Lest we forget. It is my understanding that Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, and Rob John all have quite different training methods that achieve similar results.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:58 AM   #97
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Well first off, we'd have to meet to hammer out anything definite, that being said if I were a betting person, I'd wager a lot that you're off the mark.
Seeing as I am not a betting man, no worries.

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Robert John wrote: View Post
The musculature being exhausted is only a side effect of the training, there's a lot more involved in the exercises than that. ... Also, the musculature that's being exhausted tend to be the major muscle groups (not the deeper postural muscles inside the groin, close to the spine, and inside the illial psoas), simply because people tend to flex/use these muscles first out of sheer habit.
I tend to agree in my own perception, with a slightly different take. Removing the "fog" of voluntary muscle stiffness merely reveal what is underneath, so that it can be perceived and more clearly and its mechanisms capable of being used without using the leveraged musculature. Don't get me wrong, I would not contend without having practiced with you that the Chinkon kishin and traditional kokyu undo are doing exactly what you are doing, and I think I can see from what you have described that the methodology is different. For shorthand sake (although it is an overbroad attribution) I am simply going to refer for this discussion to all the kokyu undo variations collectively as chinkon kishin.

I would describe bio-mechanically what you style as "contradictory tension" to be the forming of internal isometric strains in various elements of the body. When that voluntary strain is matained long enoucgh to temporarily deplete the volunatry musculature of that element and is then released, the voluntary muscles do not at that point control the structure for a time, thus providing you the training window to perceive an alternate structural mechanism (which was always there), and which window practice increasingly widens the ability to perceive and use. The progression is from external static to internal dynamic.

From stillness -- motion.

I perceive the methodology of chinkon kishin and various kokyu undo to be the same planet, other pole. Whereas your training isometrically and initially more statically isolates the voluntary muscles, the practice of the kokyu undo places the voluntary musculature into the mode of driving the dynamic form of that alternate structural mechanism. Ideally this also occurs to the point of substantial exhaustion, where the alternate progressively takes over from the voluntary musculature in that form. Suburi, lots of happo undo, lots of funekogi, to the point of as you said in your lengthy practice descriptions: "sweating like a pig." Then furitama, and ten/chi/shin kokyu breathing to feel the dynamic connections that have opened up throughout the body with finer, less gross, but systemic movements.

From motion -- stillness.

What I can see are these functional similarities, as you have described them in your practice. It is is clear to me that their respective approaches to the problems are distinct but not in any fundamental sense aimed at different things -- it is not clear to me that the intended and achieved result is in any way significantly different, apart from the student who is ill-suited to learn one way than the other (and I submit that either one may be ill-suited depending).

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Robert John wrote: View Post
.. but the body physically changes over time because it conditions certain physical aspects that we wouldn't generally associate as being able to be conditioned. But, you have to be aware of these components first, and how they align etc.
Or else have the form of the exercise align them generically and practice wear the dynamic shape into your body, so it is also available statically.

It is a different approach to the issue of conscious awareness of what is happening I will grant you. From the chinkon kishin perspective you only really become conscisious of what you ahve gained when you have gained it in some measure as a whole. Conversely, in your descritpion of your training progression (and Chris's too), you work on a consciousness of elements making up that that whole. In the practice you describe it seems that you early on are conscious of and moving toward elements of a form that you understand and perceive in each part as you gain it, and then more and more elements of that form in the terms you are given. This too is a distinct difference in learning style that separates the two approaches. Cinkon kishin requires more patience and trust of the process.

I will note that a recurring theme of those who are attracted to your training is a certain lack of trust and marked impatience in their training goals. This is not meant to be derogatory, as healthy skepticism and ambition to progress are good in and of themselves. It only a generic sense of certain personality type I have perceived. One can as easily be too trusting as too distrustful.

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I'm not you, so obviously I could be wrong, but it sounds to me you had a breakthrough in relaxing the body.
More than that. Much more power, without commensurately greater sense of effort at all. Entry without a sense of hurry. A sense of when to stay, when to go and where to go when going.

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Ok, so for me, this statement for me pretty much seals it.
The upper is stabilized (but not isolated), nor are the middle and lower isolated.
I may have got you wrong or misspoken, as what I meant in "isolating" elements was the isometric aspect of the contradictory tension you are using to perceive connected structure, as I described above, which is otherwise disguised by voluntary muscular leverage. I do not view the three inverted pendula of the body (hip to ground, hip to neck, and head, respectively) as EVER really disconnected (short of amputation, decapitation or bisection -- Ewww.) They may work together or in counter to one another, the latter of which is the foundation of osae waza.

The way in which I perceive this mechanical relation may be different from the way you perceive it. Thus "isolating" from my perspective means reducing the effective pendulum to one or two from three (reducing degrees of freedom for training purposes -- fewer balls to juggle). In your terminology that may legitimately be viewed as increased connection, and we may be debating verbiage.

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Robert John wrote: View Post
The upper, middle and lower are quite literally connected. ... If I, to put it in an extreme way, move my fingers on one hand, you'll see a corresponding movement (slightly weaker) on the fingers of my opposite hand, but not because I "coordinate" them.
The connections are what funekogi, tekubifuri, furitama and the three kokyu breathing work on -- everything moving together in a certain, dare I say, "harmony"

These disconnections become easily observed failings in the waza, which is why the waza are useful when training in this mode so as to disclose them. They disclose structure that is not articulated together -- literally disjointed -- if one is looking for it to correct. The best thing in the world for tai-sabaki is a couple hundred suburi, happo undo or other such chinkon kishin exercises beforehand. Then you know if you are connected or disconnected when you move. If connected there is hardly any effort in movement and if disconnected there is hardly any possibility of movement.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:45 AM   #98
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Lest we forget. It is my understanding that Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, and Rob John all have quite different training methods that achieve similar results.
Rrrm... different but similar.
They still use the same pathways. And practices that one person does can be pretty easily recognized as "sure I can see that working,” "or that's complete BS!".

There's a reason why mike's universal exercise drill can be similar in shape to the "tenchi" drill we do. Ark's never met mike, but the pathways that exist in the body are the same.
I've never met Dan, but I'd bet good money that some of his drills are going to look similar in certain aspects, even if the approach might be different.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:55 AM   #99
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am not describing what you do, merely noting an aspect of what you yourself observed about your own training. I am describing my own experience, as I have mentioned before, in things that to me seem related. Whether what you are doing is useful for you is what counts --it does not really speak to me, whereas the chinkon kishin elements do.
Please don't use the, "I'm just quoting you..." defense, you are not. With all due respect, you are attempting to describe things which you do not understand by attempting to wedge them into what you already know. I did the same thing over on e-budo before I met Ark. Granted I didn't do it with the verbosity that you do. That's not a personal attack, that's just math.

I'm genuinely glad that you have a training paradigm that you enjoy and take pleasure in, but don't assume that it's all the same. Without sounding like a late night infomercial dood, there is a simple brilliance to the Aunkai training methods. (And like Ricky pointed out, it would be an assumption to lump all three of the buzz-worthy folks into the same box, all of my comments along these lines are based on my exposure to Ark and the Aunkai and should not be interpreted to be all-inclusive). I'm also not saying that the Aunkai is the only place to get 'the goods' by the way, just keeping my comments in the framework that they were intended.

When I came back from meeting Rob the first time, a number of local Seattle folks looked me up to discuss what I'd experienced. A few of these folks had quite extensive martial arts backgrounds: koryu, Chinese arts, aikido... and had even been corresponding for a decent amount of time (up to a year) directly with Rob in an attempt to learn some of the Aunkai methods. Basically, they had the perfect background to be able to understand the Aunkai methods from a distance. All of them were doing things fairly differently than I had been shown in Japan. Why? Because, like anyone, they brought what they knew to the table in an attempt to understand something new, and a lot of this requires letting go of what you think you know. I went through the same process when I started studying Aikibudo with Neil, everyone comes in thinking, "Oh, we do that too..." and they don't. You can study all the films, videos, photos and Rob's excellent (and generous) exposition online, and it would still fall woefully short of the kind of understanding you would get in an hour of face time. If you're interested, even just so you can proclaim to the world that you already know it, go check it out. Otherwise, please stop attempting to describe that which you do not know.

Chris Moses
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:51 AM   #100
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I've never met Dan, but I'd bet good money that some of his drills are going to look similar in certain aspects, even if the approach might be different.
I'm *awfully* hopeful that Ark will be able to meet Dan some day soon so they can feel each other, then work together to advance the state-of-the art, so to speak. What if Ark has a method of using the body that Dan can't stop, and vice versa (I'm not talking about a power differential, but more like different kinds of power). Wouldn't that be great?
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