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Old 01-27-2008, 10:26 PM   #51
G DiPierro
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were aikidoka to get it-they would have a far more effective and even dangerous potential in their art, then many have now. The question is who is going to make it happen and is it going to arrive center stage from the bottom up and from the outside in. Or will the head office finally wake up and realize they are taking a secondary role. What wil happen when a Japanese shihan arrives to meet American 3rd and 4th dans and cannot do anything with them because of the juniors Aiki?
My answer is that it is very unlikely that this will happen. I guess you haven't trained in the aikikai much lately but the standard policy is that you do not (successfully) resist senior teachers, especially if they are Japanese. Check some of the threads I have been involved with recently and you'll see the kind of reactions that gets. Aikido lacks a culture of resistance training and there's no way that's going to be introduced from the bottom (or middle). I do not have any reason to believe that it will be introduced from the top, either.

The type of person you are describing basically has two choices. One is to take the nice ukemi and make the senior people look good so they can save face. That way, he can keep everyone happy and keep moving up the ladder, even if he is living a lie to do it. The other is to leave the organization and go out on his own and do what he wants. Either way, the "head office" and other senior organization people have too much power at this point and no reason to risk losing that, so I cannot imagine them letting anyone do what you suggest within their organizations.

If the people you describe want to stay in the organizations, I would suggest they should expect to be marginalized (to the extent that they are tolerated at all) for trying to "jump the ladder" rather than rewarded for their exceptional progress. The aikikai is not a meritocracy, and unless you are the son of the guy in charge (or able to convince him to put you in charge instead of his own son), you probably aren't going to have very much power to change the way that organization works. While I'd love to see someone prove me wrong and demonstrate that these skills can be reintroduced to the aikikai on a wide scale, at this point I think it is such a long shot that I've personally given up any hope of it ever happening.
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:02 PM   #52
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

I was talking about respectfully and in a more private venue. Never embarrassing someone in public or challenging. There are enough relationships going where, as someone gains these skills, they can be discussed and demonstrated with teachers.
Dan
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:11 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Allen:

I see where Dan's perspective is
1. more kokyu/jin focused,
2. missing what I really mean, too.

Mike
1. No, it isn't.
2. No, I don't.
You undermine your own efforts when you reduce yourself to presumptuous public statements about individuals. Stick to what you know and stick to the subject.

Dan
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:35 PM   #54
G DiPierro
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was talking about respectfully and in a more private venue. Never embarrassing someone in public or challenging. There are enough relationships going where, as someone gains these skills, they can be discussed and demonstrated with teachers.
I wasn't aware that any Japanese shihan were arriving to meet American 3- and 4-dans for private training sessions. But even if they are, and even if these 3- and 4-dans are able to discuss and demonstrate these skills with these shihan in these sessions, I will still be impressed and frankly shocked to see them have any significant impact in the aikikai (especially, although the same thing would also apply to other organizations). My experience is that Japanese-style martial arts organizations work primarily top-down and very rarely bottom-up, and the notion that a change as fundamental as this could be introduced from the bottom or outside is one that I find very unlikely.

My prediction, for the reasons I gave, is that the aikikai will not change, but even if I am right about this I will take no great pleasure in it. In this case, I would rather find that I am wrong, but my experience time and again is that this is simply not realistic. However, there is no point in debating it since it will not have any effect on the outcome, and the issue cannot be settled until the outcome is known anyway. So I'll just say again that I hope you are right, but I'm not holding my breath (so to speak).
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:52 AM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. No, it isn't.
2. No, I don't.
You undermine your own efforts when you reduce yourself to presumptuous public statements about individuals. Stick to what you know and stick to the subject.
Hi Dan:

Before this gets too far off topic (although I think it's been a fruitful thought-starter, already), let's think about this. The discussion had to do with transmission, inheritance, and emulation in regard to Ueshiba.

You basically began your standard tirade about how Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda and Ueshiba wasn't all that good, etc. I pointed out that it might be a valid presumption that Ueshiba got some very important training concepts via Deguchi. You denied it and asked what important martial artists Deguchi had produced. I pointed out twice that Deguchi's contribution would more like have been a form of training procedures. Now you indicate that you already know all that. Once more.

Could you explain what I mean about the training procedures from Deguchi, how they work, and how that would affect the transmission then?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-28-2008, 12:27 PM   #56
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

Christianity came from Judaism
Chemistry comes from alchemy
Water comes from snow
Word processors came from typewriters
Ballet comes from fencing
Katana come from straight swords
Momotaro came from a peach
Internal training is a good thing
Lots of people don't know about it, know about it but can't do it, know about it but discount it, or can do it. Many who say they can do it can't, or so others say who can or can't do it.
There are many internal training methods, but they are basically the same, but they are in fact, rather different.
Some internal training makes some people much better fighters than they were before. Other training makes some people healthier. Other training makes you crazy, garrulous, perseverating, obsessive-compulsive or simply very odd. In my observations, the latter is more likely.
Oh, maybe you didn't hear me - Christianity comes from Judaism
From Judaism, I tell you!!!!!!! And Paul was a better Christian than Peter, although some say Thomas was the one who really got the goods. There was a conspiracy of silence to suppress the truth about Christianity's roots in Judaism, but luckily someone noticed the "old testament" was the same as the Tanakh. Whew. Those dastardly conspirators.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:04 PM   #57
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dan:

Before this gets too far off topic (although I think it's been a fruitful thought-starter, already), let's think about this. The discussion had to do with transmission, inheritance, and emulation in regard to Ueshiba.

You basically began your standard tirade about how Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda and Ueshiba wasn't all that good, etc. I pointed out that it might be a valid presumption that Ueshiba got some very important training concepts via Deguchi. You denied it and asked what important martial artists Deguchi had produced. I pointed out twice that Deguchi's contribution would more like have been a form of training procedures. Now you indicate that you already know all that. Once more.

Could you explain what I mean about the training procedures from Deguchi, how they work, and how that would affect the transmission then?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Hi Mr. Sigman,

I do think that Mr. Harden has made an important point that Deguchi never seemed to pass this training on to any other martial artists, or at least, didn't imbue them with the same skills as Ueshiba. Therefore it seems quite logiclal to assume that Ueshiba received MOST, not neccisarily all, his internal traiing from Takeda.

Sooo, as per this discussion, did Ueshiba pass any of this particular internal training on to any of his students? Me thinks that Ueshiba's earlier students would be more likely to have trained in this than his later students, who probably got exercises that are more religiously-significant than martially-significant. Comments?

Take Care

-Blake
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:19 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

My meager understanding of the topic tells me that

a) Internal Training can be done in many ways
b) some are more successfull than others
c) You might learn in one framework, then move to another frame work with the same or even better results, as long as the new framework doesn't physically contradict the old.

More interesting is learning about the the different frameworks, who can teach them, who can help you improve.

As usual, Ellis's post was a hoot!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:22 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
I do think that Mr. Harden has made an important point that Deguchi never seemed to pass this training on to any other martial artists, or at least, didn't imbue them with the same skills as Ueshiba. Therefore it seems quite logiclal to assume that Ueshiba received MOST, not neccisarily all, his internal traiing from Takeda.
Hi Blake:

I don't follow the logic of that premise. The quick answer would be to ask what other already-accomplished martial artists studied with Deguchi's organization other than Ueshiba. If you can point to a few who were also in Omoto Kyo and who also learned the Chinkon Kishin training, we could perhaps analyse whether the CK training was effective or not. I suspect that not many other dedicated martial artists studied with Deguchi's *religious organization* though, so to treat Omoto Kyo as a martial training facility is pretty far off reality. IMO.

I think one of the problems in the discussion is that many people aren't aware of what approaches can be taken to strengthen the body; i.e., how many different approaches there can be. I happen to know from experience that there are a number of different approaches and a number of different levels of accomplishment, and so on, so I don't look at it as "there's this one way to do it and Takeda had it so Ueshiba MUST have gotten it from him". I have not doubt that Ueshiba learned at least some of the stuff from Takeda, but if Takeda's stuff had been complete, I really don't think that Ueshiba would have begun utilizing the Chinkon Kishin; Omoto Kyo would simply have been a religious thing for Ueshiba.
Quote:
Sooo, as per this discussion, did Ueshiba pass any of this particular internal training on to any of his students? Me thinks that Ueshiba's earlier students would be more likely to have trained in this than his later students, who probably got exercises that are more religiously-significant than martially-significant. Comments?
I don't know. The one fairly interesting thing that I've found out over the last few years is that westerner Aikido students tend to know almost nothing about these sorts of training, but the more I look, the more older Japanese shihans, etc., I turn up who have a fair amount of these skills. My previous opinion that almost none of the Japanese knew these things turns out to be simply wrong (although there are a fair number that seem to only have rudimentary skills and that's part of what misled me).

Best.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 01-28-2008 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:33 PM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
I suspect that not many other dedicated martial artists studied with Deguchi *religious organization* though, so to treat Omoto Kyo as a martial training facility is pretty far off reality. IMO.
I don't know about **famous** martial artists, but a network of dojo was setup for Omoto *adherents* anyway, and Ueshiba spent some time going around to them, and sending his students to teach at them. I tend to think though that this is not a very important point in the discussion.

Quote:
...Takeda had it so Ueshiba MUST have gotten it from him". I have not doubt that Ueshiba learned at least some of the stuff from Takeda, but if Takeda's stuff had been complete, I really don't think that Ueshiba would have begun utilizing the Chinkon Kishin; Omoto Kyo would simply have been a religious thing for Ueshiba.
But as you yourself have mentioned, it's not so easy with Ueshiba to seperate the two...it would seem he thought of them as one and the same. That's why I have no issues with what Dan says, and at the same time few if any issues with what you say. It really doesn't matter (in terms of Ueshiba) because he thought about both sides of the issues from an overall religeous point of view.

I also think that Sagawa's quotes dovetail nicely here. No matter how much someone else **shows** you, you have to do the work yourself. So if I learn the possibilities in one fashion, find something else that fits with my temperment and utilize that in a similar fashion, who get's the credit? In the end, who cares??

It still comes down to the work **I** do (or don't do, or don't do enough of).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:43 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

I don't disagree, Ron. One factor that needs to placed in plain view during these discussions on "transmission" is that a lot of the "internal training" stuff is hidden, gokui, etc. In other words, just because someone trained with Takeda or Ueshiba (or many other expert teachers) doesn't mean that they were going to be shown how to do these things. The textbook case is Tohei having to go outside in order to get information... I think Ueshiba's stuff from Deguchi may well have been a similar "go outside to get the goods to add to the techniques". So yes, you have to work, but you have to be shown, too. And you're right, different people can show you different things. But you know what?... it's fun.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:08 PM   #62
G DiPierro
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oh, maybe you didn't hear me - Christianity comes from Judaism
From Judaism, I tell you!!!!!!! And Paul was a better Christian than Peter, although some say Thomas was the one who really got the goods. There was a conspiracy of silence to suppress the truth about Christianity's roots in Judaism, but luckily someone noticed the "old testament" was the same as the Tanakh. Whew. Those dastardly conspirators.
In all seriousness, a subject that is occasionally discussed in private but rarely in public is the similarity in development between aikido and Christianity, particularly in the sense of an organization developing over time that maintains vague and often inconsistent allusions to the message of a charismatic founder, but as time goes on becomes more based on conventional ego-politics rather than the psychologically radical message of that founder. Already the parallels between the aikikai and the Catholic church are quite apparent, and I expect the former to continue to go in the direction of the latter, becoming very politically powerful but losing most of its spiritual substance and replacing it with extensive formal but empty rituals.
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:10 PM   #63
ChrisMoses
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The quick answer would be to ask what other already-accomplished martial artists studied with Deguchi's organization other than Ueshiba. If you can point to a few who were also in Omoto Kyo and who also learned the Chinkon Kishin training, we could perhaps analyse whether the CK training was effective or not. I suspect that not many other dedicated martial artists studied with Deguchi's *religious organization* though, so to treat Omoto Kyo as a martial training facility is pretty far off reality. IMO.
While not exactly what you're looking for above, the interview(s) with Inoue Noriaki (translated in Aikido Masters) offer some interesting insight. So far as I can tell, his aikido was considered to be most like that of Ueshiba Morihei's. I don't have the book with me right now, but if memory serves, one of the reasons he distanced himself from Aikido and OSensei was his perception that he (meaning OSensei) had stayed too far (or perhaps not been faithful enough) to the teachings of Deguchi Sensei. I felt that it was fairly clear that he considered Deguchi Sensei to be both of his and OSensei's true teacher, rather than Takeda Sensei. I certainly take his devotion to Omoto Kyo into account however with all of his statements.

Again, dragging back toward transmission and inheritance ( ), I think he's a singularly interesting figure in the evolution of Aikido. In many ways, I think of him as the "Ghost of Aikido as it Could Have Been" should OSensei had decided to settle down, teach at a small private dojo and not make any concessions to internationalizing Aikido/Aikibudo training. He was in a unique position to witness it all, and even his decision to retreat into obscurity I find telling. I'm hoping Peter has some thoughts on him in a future article. Pretty please!

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 01-28-2008 at 02:12 PM.

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Old 01-28-2008, 02:34 PM   #64
Allen Beebe
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Other training makes some people healthier. Other training makes you crazy, garrulous, perseverating, obsessive-compulsive or simply very odd. In my observations, the latter is more likely.
Takes one to know one!!


~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:48 PM   #65
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Takes one to know one!!

Heh. Actually, there are traditional stages of development and hopefully a person develops in all areas, not just the physical.

Take a look at the table on this page with the 3 general steps of development in internal skills for martial arts; notice the mental as well as physical development that is part of progress:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xy...uoyongBIS.html

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:15 PM   #66
jss
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
I do think that Mr. Harden has made an important point that Deguchi never seemed to pass this training on to any other martial artists, or at least, didn't imbue them with the same skills as Ueshiba. Therefore it seems quite logiclal to assume that Ueshiba received MOST, not neccisarily all, his internal training from Takeda.
Since something very important is hidden in this argument, I'll translate it to show you why it is not valid.
What if Takeda taught Ueshiba swimming and weight lifting. And Deguchi taught him how to train endurance through interval training. As a result of Deguchi's training method, Ueshiba starts to swim significantly faster. However, Deguchi never teaches his method to any other swimmers, or at least not with the same results. (The others didn't ddo regular interval training, so didn't get the results.)
Does this imply that what Deguchi taught to Ueshiba is meaningless?

ps.: And the interesting part with internal training is that the skill and the conditioning are more interrelated than they are for swimming.
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:53 PM   #67
Allen Beebe
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Heh. Actually, there are traditional stages of development and hopefully a person develops in all areas, not just the physical.

Take a look at the table on this page with the 3 general steps of development in internal skills for martial arts; notice the mental as well as physical development that is part of progress:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xy...uoyongBIS.html

Regards,

Mike
Gee thanks Mike . . . now I'm a THREE TIME looser!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:35 PM   #68
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5: Important revelations

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Already the parallels between the aikikai and the Catholic church are quite apparent, and I expect the former to continue to go in the direction of the latter, becoming very politically powerful but losing most of its spiritual substance and replacing it with extensive formal but empty rituals.
Ah.

A heretic.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-28-2008, 04:44 PM   #69
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
... What if Takeda taught Ueshiba swimming and weight lifting. And Deguchi taught him how to train endurance through interval training. As a result of Deguchi's training method, Ueshiba starts to swim significantly faster.
Endurance swimming is not measured in speed -- but in hours of time making progress in water while not drowning. The non sequitur you made, without really thinking about it, is, I think, similar to the disconnect between some participants that frequently happens in discussions on this topic in budo.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:06 PM   #70
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dan:
You basically began your standard tirade about how Ueshiba owed everything to Takeda and Ueshiba wasn't all that good, etc.
Tirade? I don’t feel strongly enough about it to go on a tirade.
I gave pointed, specific, commentary as to what he MAY have owed and WHEN he may have started building off of it. Further I stated he most likely did as the other students of Takeda added to their extensive solo regimens as well
The rest is your continued misunderstanding and inner dialogue of what you think I meant.
"Ueshiba wasn't good?" Site where I said anything like that. Then look at the sum of my replies.
We go round and round because you...do NOT read what I write, you hear an inner dialogue that colors everything I say. You always have. People who like us both have noticed it. It’s why I said "Were we to meet we would need a translator to say hello."
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I pointed out that it might be a valid presumption that Ueshiba got some very important training concepts via Deguchi. You denied it and asked what important martial artists Deguchi had produced.
I did not deny it! Never did. While you accuse me of being too strong on the one hand-Daito ryu-you are too strong on the other side and too dismissive of a subject –Daito ryu’s internal training-you know little about. So again that is NOT what I said, and tried to clarify if for you-repeatedly. Again, You...do NOT read what I write. you hear an inner dialogue.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I pointed out twice that Deguchi's contribution would more like have been a form of training procedures. .
I pointed out several times I have no problem with that. Only just what may prove to have been of *little* additional worth or of *significant* worth. You-don’t have those answers.
Other than that (for the third time) I only addressed certain time-frame issues Peter raised that could be inaccurately misread. Such as Kissomaru stating it was after Deguchi that Ueshiba gained power. I offered a counter point. Which was, this is curiously right after Takeda trained with him daily for 6 months and for the first time allowed him to teach. Curious again that it was at this time that Deguchi was so impressed with Aiki that he suggested to Takeda to change the name of the art.
What do you think impressed Deguchi so much?
Some stupid joint lock?

Are you at least trying to hear me?
I offered other plausible explanations. Were you remotely honest about trying to research...scratch that.. using honest sounds negative when I am not intending to be. If you were -seriously neutral- about all this you would want/desire/obsess, over all possible avenues. I just don't see that.
I stated it was as equally logical, perhaps more logical, that during this period it was Takeda that gave him Aiki through a series of solo training exercises and Ueshiba improved dramatically over time.
Explain the impossibility of that assertion?

Worthy of note is that Takeda somehow magically performed this same feat with five other men.
Ueshiba...did not.
Deguchi did not.
The top men in the higher level schools of Daito ryu have extensive regimens of solo training that have real world results.
Aikido does not.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Could you explain what I mean about the training procedures from Deguchi, how they work, and how that would affect the transmission then?
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Could you explain what I mean by the training procedures of Daito ryu? How they work? How they would affect the transmission of the art …they… created-Aikido? They are complex and increase from basic kokyu/jin onward-or should I say...inward

1. Equating what Takeda's teachings are, were or were not and or the effect it had on Ueshibas skills is to imply a deep knowledge of them.
2. Stating the effect that later training may or may not have added, modified, been very similar or entirely different is to imply a knowledge of both to the extent one can make a comparative analysis.

Any takers?______________________

Nowhere that I can see has anyone explored all the possibilities that are in evidence enough to give any serious credibility to the discussion.

1. Evidence of the effect of Takeda’s teaching are known and tied with a timeline of Ueshiba demonstrable skills
2. Evidence of the providence of these skills are known and exist in a time line preceding Ueshiba- in Takeda, Sagawa and Kodo.
3. Evidence exists that these skills are attained by extensive solo training.
4. Evidence of the providence of these skills in a time line- concurrent- to Ueshiba are evident in the words of many of his students. Who stated that Takedas skills were magnificant, and mysterious and inexplicable as to how he did what he did.

If as Peter contends Ueshiba was "doing these things before he met Takeda." Then I contend Ueshiba literally crying in the corner in front of witnesses bears testament to Takeda's superior understanding of...these things.
That Ueshiba was not walking in real power was curiously already known. That there was a difference AFTER Takeda's arrival and training that culminated in him being given the tools for power coincided with him being allowed to teach for the first time-leads to to more probable explanations for his power increase during that period.

OK, where he went from there, and what he added later, is quite worthwhile. As I pointed out among the top students of Takeda- THEY ALL DID. That said, anyone stating definitively what he had here, then what he had over there, and what he gained and from whom, and when- has been fraught with lies- open, outright, lies, and shadowy innuendo, fortunately countered by much documentation and corroboration
I’d hate to see a more informed but none-the-less flawed repeat of the 1980 myths and wild goose chases.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2008 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:27 PM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
--Daito ryu's internal training-you know little about. ....[[snipsky]]...The top men in the higher level schools of Daito ryu have extensive regimens of solo training that have real world results.
Aikido does not.
Well, before we go down that road, Dan.... how is it that you are privy to Daito-ryu's internal training? Who have you studied with long enough to become a receiver of the supposedly secret inner trainings?????
Quote:
Could you explain what I mean by the training procedures of Daito ryu? How they work? How they would affect the transmission of the art …they… created-Aikido? They are complex and increase from basic kokyu/jin onward-or should I say...inward
So how do you know this, Dan? Whom did you study with? Essentially, you're presenting yourself as knowledgeable about Daito Ryu's secretive training techniques, yet you never answer any questions publicly about the how's and why's. I at least try to post cogent analyses. It's very difficult to debate your purported knowledge and assertions about Daito Ryu and Aikido, in terms of "internal" skills, when you offer nothing but assertions and select quotes from books.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:19 PM   #72
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Try addressing the topic directly instead of me. It really speaks poorly of your internet presence. As it is, my post addresses some interesting ideas and things you simply do not know.
As for me? I got what I got by training with the right people and practicing. It wasn’t long ago you told everyone I didn’t know anything about internal skills in two public forums. A bunch of folks felt some real serious pros as well as Ark, -you- and me, some several times over, and writing in publicly about the experiences- It is apparent you have no cause for your attitude. Nor, should you be writing such claptrap about me as you did here. And I see where Dan's perspective is more kokyu/jin focused, missing what I really mean, too.
You have some good skills, Mike. Good for you. I applaud the effort. Stop undermining a good effort here. Maybe you should take your own advice before assuming so much.
My previous opinion ….turns out to be simply wrong.
Instead of continually telling us about how many times you have –been-wrong, why not slow down and get it right. Obviously... there is much right here in this discussion that you still don't know.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2008 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:42 PM   #73
Mike Sigman
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Try addressing the topic directly instead of me.
I have, Dan. You make definitive assertions about Ueshiba and what he knew, what he learned from Takeda, what people in Daito Ryu practice, etc... unless you can support them, no one can debate you because you simply fall back on more assertions.

How can you say what Ueshiba, Takeda, experts in D.R. do, etc., if you can't show any bona fides in Daito Ryu to support your claims? Should we just take your word on things, then? I asked a simple question about assertions you've made and you then attempt to divert the conversation to me personally.

Can you answer the question about how you know what is contained in supposedly secretive Daito Ryu training, or not? If you didn't study much in Daito Ryu and yet you were given this information, then the logic of not revealing DR secrets seems groundless. If you did study comprehensively under a known DR teacher, then giving his name should be easy to do.

The points you're making about Ueshiba and his knowledge and the transmission of Aikido should be supportable in the above respect... or you need to preface your comments with the fact that you're only speculating from a distance.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:53 PM   #74
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I have, Dan. You make definitive assertions about Ueshiba and what he knew, what he learned from Takeda, what people in Daito Ryu practice, etc... unless you can support them, no one can debate you because you simply fall back on more assertions.

Can you answer the question about how you know what is contained in supposedly secretive Daito Ryu training, or not? If you didn't study much in Daito Ryu and yet you were given this information, then the logic of not revealing DR secrets seems groundless. If you did study comprehensively under a known DR teacher, then giving his name should be easy to do.

The points you're making about Ueshiba and his knowledge and the transmission of Aikido should be supportable in the above respect... or you need to preface your comments with the fact that you're only speculating from a distance.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Are you actually writing this? You?
I'm glad you have kept your sense of humor intact. I certainly enjoyed that.
Dan
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:19 AM   #75
Blake Holtzen
Location: Florida
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Fight!, Fight!, Fight!

In all seriousness though, perhaps we could quit the (polite) mudslinging and discuss Chinkon Kishin and related trainings.

My question, as an aikido noob, is what makes Chinkon Kishin special? My background is in CMA and I have been exposed to several different qigongs, which makes me wonder, is Chinkon Kishin any different or any better?

My inexperienced eyes tell me that Chinkon Kishin has more religious significance than martial significance. Is this what some people think led to Osensei's internal power? Some rowing exercises, balance shifting, and deep breathing? Would it be a faux pas to say that Osensei's appears to have poor structural alignment when he performs this?

Regardless, What are other people's experiences with Chinkon Kishin or any other type of qigong/jibengong?

Take Care all

-Blake
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