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Old 01-22-2008, 03:13 PM   #26
"Anonymous"
IP Hash: 27fc2872
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Re: What to do ?

Oh, Christian posted faster than I did.
No, Sensei does not know anything about that ! I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:14 PM   #27
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: What to do ?

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THIS INCIDENT TOOK PLACE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE OF THE DOJO- IT WAS GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE AND WRONG!

You both are students at the same school. You both are students inside and outside of the dojo. The respect for one another that exists inside of the dojo is not exclusive to the dojo. Your concern about how the police might handle it is genuine and should be considered in how you chose to handle the situation. At a minimum, the teacher should be told yesterday. The teacher has an obligation to the students. The teacher cannot act on that obligation if left in the dark.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:26 PM   #28
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
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Re: What to do ?

If you can't trust someone not to sexually assault other members of the dojo, how can you ever trust them to treat their training partners with respect on the mat?

Not OK,
Not open for discussion.

Beat to pulp, then ban.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:33 PM   #29
Angela Dunn
Dojo: Hartlepool/Peterlee/Billingham
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Re: What to do ?

Not an expert, not qualified and not pretending to know exactly what your feeling and going through right now. But If you want someone who is away from the situation to rant at or talk things through with then I would be more than happy to be that person if you think it could help.

Unfortunately I to had a unwelcome and unexpected run in with a guy in my dojo (and a wake up call to this crazy little thing called the males of the species!). Different circumstances but was faced with the prospect of talking it through with my own Sensei.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=12967&page=5
The post I made at the time and the wonderful help and support I got from this forums.

That thread may be of some help to you with regards to recommendations and useful links etc. I would also recommend reading a book called the gift of fear by Gavin De Becker, from your clarifying posts I can guess at what happened and think you may find that book helpful.

I would definitely find someone to discuss this with at your dojo. As the posts above say it was not appropriate behavior and yes your Sensei can do something about it, and really should for the safety and welfare of their other students. If you really can not face talking it through with a male, (although honestly they really are not all jerks and have opinions like your dojo cho and some can actually listen and help you through it) then is there a higher female grade you could tell and have accompany you when you do talk to him? Or someone who can talk to him on your behalf?

He does need to know what happened. If he was banned I can not understand why they are allowing him back, but if you talk to someone there then they can at least know why you are not comfortable around him. Honestly though I would not want to be in the same room as that person (Fortunately I did not have to be and I would be bricking it if I had to be, even now) and it certainly does not sound as though aikido is the right place for him to be training. As for going to the police, that is a very personal choice that only you alone can make but if you do go them make certain that you have people around you that can help and support you. You may also want to consider contacting a rape crisis center or similar organizations to. (Again no expert, just what I have been trained to say as part of voluntary work.)

Remember, what happened to you was not your fault. That guy did not respect you when you implied that it was not a situation you where not willing to engage in. Do not blame yourself for what happened.

Whatever happens and what you decide, well I for one wish the best of luck for the outcome. If you feel able to please let us know the outcome.

Last edited by Angela Dunn : 01-22-2008 at 04:41 PM. Reason: typos and did not finish what i wanted to say
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:07 PM   #30
MikeLogan
 
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Re: What to do ?

Most people I know, myself included, practice aikido as a means to protect ourselves, with some thought to spare the expense of unnecessary bodily harm to an attacker out of respect for their humanity. Your practice of aikido has led you to be attacked through your former sempai's abuse of your trust. That's should have been the opposite of your instructor's goals for both persons A and B.

It is obvious you can no longer interact with this guy on or off the mat as a matter of sincere defence of yourself. Are there other women in your dojo. Are they at risk of being lured to his flat? Do you feel any obligation to prevent some interaction between another woman and he that you have already experienced to be threatening?

From what you say it sounds as though you think you could have fared worse in the situation. Perhaps it's your culture to let men off easy, or for men to let other men off easy, or simply to be mentally resillient. And right now you may feel hesitant about grabbing the tiger's tail and telling sensei. If you don't have the community support to go about your daily life reasonably secure from some action of reprisal, then yes, I can understand a bit of the trouble you find yourself in. Be careful!
Quote:
Anon wrote:
I am really not sure, if "person B" has to be banned, because this happened outside the dojo.
No, he doesn't have to be banned, he just has to be made to realize how much more likely 'accidents' may occur in his general direction.

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:05 AM   #31
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I dared to write an E-Mail and send it to Sensei. I really needed a long time for that. Don't know, how he will react, but at least now there is someone else in that dojo who knows, what was going on. Before that I felt that in a strange way I shared a secret with "person B".
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:54 AM   #32
Derek
 
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Re: What to do ?

Just to add a thought...

I agree with what has been said about "slimeball boy." One aspect that is not being accepted by the victum and assumed by everyone else is that what happens off the mat impacts what happens on the mat. This needs to be stated more directly.

We speak of training in aikido and then "taking it with us" into the real world, but the opposite is true that you carry your sins with you. To me, it is not a given that a student who pays the fees should be allowed to train. Every student is a reflection on the dojo and the sensei. It they image they reflect is not what the dojo and the sensei wished reflected than they should not train. The "right" to train at a given dojo is really a privilege that can be taken away due to bad behavior, which this case seems to qualify for. Kick him to the curb.

Derek Duval
Yondan
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:56 PM   #33
"RK from the Y"
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Re: What to do ?

[quote=...But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?...[/QUOTE]

Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo. Some go to the dojo to become better "fighters". Majority of these people who fantasize about fighting in the "real world" will somehow end up in an aikido dojo. They always "win" either as a nage or as an uke. They are not interested in the ethical context of the art. They do not buy into the spiritual size of the art. They will stop you in track if you bring up ethics or spiritualism. They will say, "Don't bring up O'Sensei. He is dead and gone and he was not my teacher".

Mind you, some of these guys are also instructors who see Aikido as a commodity that they can market. They will tell you about their marketing skill selling their brand of aikido to the "targeted" customers. They will brack about the number of dojo they operate and the number of students they have. Most of the students are spawns of the teachers; some of the most egotistical and arrogrant you will meet. They are right about having the right marketing plans.

Look around, you might be in one of these dojo.

Buyers beware!!

Regards

RK
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Old 01-25-2008, 02:58 PM   #34
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Where did you get this noble idea that aikido or any MA can educate or reform violent or overly aggressive people? These people have better chances of reform in a yoga or meditation class than in a dojo.
I think, it's as if you want to give medicine to a child, you need to mix it with some sugar. It's the same with some people. Yoga, Qigong, Dancing, Role play would be much better, but they are not interest in things, if there is nothing "martial" in them.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:00 PM   #35
akiy
 
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Re: What to do ?

Hi folks,

Please let's stay on-topic in regards to the original poster's topic. If you wish to discuss an off-topic subject, please start a new thread.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 01-27-2008, 01:56 PM   #36
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

Talked to Sensei today. He did believe me, He said, that things might have been less dramatic than I told him, but of course somehow dramatic and what B did was no good at all. He will talk to B first, then B, Sensei and I shall have a talk (that's the ususal way to solve conflicts). Then he will inform the other trainers and we'll try to find a way to make it possible for me, to take part in training without training with B. It's annoying for me, that Sensei somehow tells me, how I shall feel about this. He asked me, how I feel, but also told me, that it wouldn't be too bad for me, nothing I couldn't forget, since it was no rape and that surely counseling would be exaggerated. Well, he's a man, he cannot understand that this was not really something completely different from rape for me. At the moment B is doing Aikido every day, and I did'nt go to the dojo since weeks, because he is there.
I think I need to give up that dojo, but first I'm going to fight for my right, to be there as well.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:07 PM   #37
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

No, what I wrote, sounds a bit wrong: We talked a lot about B and how I and Sensei do feel about him. We both decided, that he is worth not to give him up (I did write that post about medicine and sugar). But I do feel, there are only two real possibilities for me: Either to train, and to train with B as well, or not to train at all. It's simply too difficult to organize that we don't partner up. I don't want everybody to know what happened, and it would be weird, if were in the same training lesson not partner up. Everybody would think or say: "Come on, you two go off the mat, talk and solve your problems".
Don't know, how Sensei will talk to B. I don't really believe, that B wants to talk to me in Senseis presence. If I really want to talk with him depends on how he reacts to Sensei and what he tells him.
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Old 01-27-2008, 03:07 PM   #38
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: What to do ?

Find another dojo.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:18 PM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Find another dojo.
You sound REALLY uncomfortable with the dojo you're in so I'll quote Ricky Wood....

Find Another Dojo.
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:03 PM   #40
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: What to do ?

Dear Anonymous,

I don't know where you're from or your local culture, so I can only view your situation from my own perspective. Your teacher's comments suggest to me that you and your concerns are being discounted significantly. If he thinks your interest in counseling is "exaggerated" and that you're really OK because you weren't actually raped, then he is way off base, at least in my viewpoint.

Ricky Wood summed it up perfectly - leave and find another dojo. This isn't a healthy environment to train in. You may certainly have the right to train where you are, but what is the point? How can you possibly train with joy and confidence, knowing what you do about your own situation? Find a healthier place to train.

Best wishes.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:04 PM   #41
"RK from the Y"
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
..I did write that post about medicine and sugar). But I do feel, there are only two real possibilities for me: Either to train, and to train with B as well, or not to train at all. It's simply too difficult to organize that we don't partner up. I don't want everybody to know what happened, and it would be weird, if were in the same training lesson not partner up. Everybody would think or say: "Come on, you two go off the mat, talk and solve your problems".
Don't know, how Sensei will talk to B. I don't really believe, that B wants to talk to me in Senseis presence. If I really want to talk with him depends on how he reacts to Sensei and what he tells him.
As I have implied before, you could at the wrong place and wrong time to train considering the situations you were in and you are now. In chorus with the majority here, find other dojo to train. You would be in a better state of mind.

RK
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:40 PM   #42
MikeLogan
 
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Re: What to do ?

That's pretty messed up, Anon, and if you want to be doing anything more significant than just swinging your arms around and falling down, I would say get out of there. For your teacher to have so little regard for your personal wellbeing, why should he have any regard for your ability to defend yourself. There doesn't seem much need for further discussion, hope you followup with some genuine counselling.

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:26 AM   #43
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What to do ?

Perhaps there is a cultural difference here, but I cannot imagine a situation in my own dojo, here in Hiroshima, where, as senior instructor (the 'Sensei'), I would ever allow any discrimination in training. In a normal training session there are 15 - 20 persons on the mat, usually with three instructors, so we would spot any problems immediately.

It is a given that every student has to be prepared to train seriously with every other student. It is also understood that an essential element of the training involves learning to cope with the idiosyncrasies of each student.]

I cannot understand why 'Sensei' does not 'see', in this case.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:31 AM   #44
Angela Dunn
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Re: What to do ?

On the possitive side you found the currage to tell someone and talked to your Sensei and for that I congratulate you. And your Sensei is at least trying to find a solution and a way to work things out. It's a shame that he has gone about it in a way that kind of disregards your feelings on the matter and his comments where insensative to the point I felt like slapping him on your behalf.

If your really not comfortable with the way things have worked out, and seriously who could blame you for that, then I think you may be best looking to train elsewhere. At least now your Sensei is aware and if he chooses to make the decision he has done, for whatever reason he has done, you know where you stand.

Try not to let you put this off other dojo's and training in the future though. If/when you do start training and it is elsewhere it may be worth mentioning what has happened and why you left your current dojo so they can be aware of that and ease you in gently.
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Old 01-28-2008, 06:34 AM   #45
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I cannot go to another dojo (there are some in our town, but they are too far away), so for me it is: this dojo or no Aikido at all.
Of course, that "solution" we've found, is no solution at all. For a conflict-solving talk there has to be a conflict both people want to solve - so where is B's conflict ? He can go training now, why should he take part in anything, that's not comfortable for him (like talking to me and Sensei) ?
Also we were wrong about my safety. We agreed, that Senseis action (confronting B) will not cause any threat for my safety, but weren't we stupid ? We thought about things like go to my place and hit me or something, but if B really wants to damage me, he can easily do so "by chance" when playing aikido with me.
The last word is not spoken yet, and Sensei, of course, has to think a lot about this and talk to the other peoples involved.
About the 100%-responsibility he told me, that of course the man is 100% responsible as well... His explanations didn't make really sense for me, but at least he does not say, it was all my fault.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:05 AM   #46
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: What to do ?

**Sigh**...There is really nothing to think about. If "Sensei" believes you, his only principled action is to toss B out the door, preferrably to land on his head. That's it in a nutshell.

Doesn't matter so much what art you train if you are dedicated to training. Find another dojo.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:13 AM   #47
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
**Sigh**...There is really nothing to think about. If "Sensei" believes you, his only principled action is to toss B out the door, preferrably to land on his head. That's it in a nutshell.

Doesn't matter so much what art you train if you are dedicated to training. Find another dojo.

Best,
Ron
Ron is right. The art is much less important than the teacher. Visit some other budo dojo's.
Not training at all is a better option than training under the circumstances you have described.
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:12 AM   #48
Walter Martindale
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I cannot go to another dojo (there are some in our town, but they are too far away), so for me it is: this dojo or no Aikido at all.
(snip)
Sorry... I disagree - The current dojo is unacceptable.

I was recently told a "tale" of a former Olympic athlete who wanted to train - desperately. She took a bus from home, then walked for 30 minutes, then trained in a racing single scull for about 90 minutes, changed, walked, took the bus and THEN went to school. After school, she repeated the travel, training, travel, and got home at 9PM to study for the next day's school. That was school days. (She competed in 2 Olympics including 1984, won 34 national championships, and several international medals.
If you WANT IT badly enough, the other dojos aren't too far away. They'll take a lot of effort to get to. I would frankly get out of the current place and either into another Aikido dojo (if you want it that badly) or (as has been suggested above) take up another martial art...

W
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:22 AM   #49
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

You are right, it would not be really impossible (hopefully this year I'll get a better job, then I could effort the more expensive dojo and train ticket), but I somehow feel as if someone had slaughtered my dog. Of course I could go and buy a new pet, even a more beautiful one, but it would not be the same at all.
This dojo community has been like a familiy to me and I found so very much healing there, that I really should try to leave without bitterness. There's not only Sensei and B, but also very nice people and very engaged junior trainers, who spended lots of effort and time to teach me, although I'm not talented at all. They really struggle to keep this dojo running, since their Sensei left town, it's not easy for them.
Now it's like a case of abuse in a real familiy: If neither B nor I do leave, the whole dojo would turn into an dysfunctional family with unhealthy secrets.
And of course, decisions are not for eternity. I can keep in touch with them and come back, when something changes.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:51 AM   #50
ChrisMoses
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
You are right, it would not be really impossible (hopefully this year I'll get a better job, then I could effort the more expensive dojo and train ticket), but I somehow feel as if someone had slaughtered my dog. Of course I could go and buy a new pet, even a more beautiful one, but it would not be the same at all.
This dojo community has been like a familiy to me and I found so very much healing there, that I really should try to leave without bitterness. ...
To be quite frank, the dog is dead. It would be best to mourn and move on. I really do understand the community that comes from a dojo. Those bonds (if real) should not be entirely dependent on your continued training. I have studied at and left several dojos. I still see some people from the first dojo I ever trained at almost daily. Others I see every week or so. Some of these people I still train with, others haven't trained with me in over a decade. We're still family however. I've spent more Thanksgivings with those folks than I have with my blood relatives (at least in the last 15 years or so). Those other people, the other members of your dojo family should also want Dirty Slimeball gone. If they don't feel the same way, they are not as good a friends as you may think that they are. This isn't the kind of thing that should be kept a secret. Tell your friends, they should insist that Dirty Slimball be removed from the community before this kind of thing happens to someone else. If none of your friends will come around to your side, you should really read this article. Many dojo (IMHO) develop VERY unhealthy relationships. Often the bonds formed in these situations are even stronger than in healthy dojo. That's why it's even more important to be aware of the actual situation.

Good luck.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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