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Old 01-17-2008, 08:23 AM   #26
ChrisMoses
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I'll play it safe here and stick to what the founder said:

"Not get involved, and get the hell up atta' there"
Care to cite that?

Chris Moses
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:32 AM   #27
Joseph Madden
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Forgive my query. If it is too invasive, please say the word.
1. What exactly do you mean by neutralization? What happens to a person that makes him neutral?

2. It seems that allot of folks feel like they failed in a technique if uke does not end up in some wonderful ukemi. If ukemi is the escape from the technique, is it part of this neutralization you talk about?

3. Is it important to have uke fall?
1. He/She is no longer a threat to your personal space. They have entered into your sphere of influence and have become neutral or stopped.(by the technique(s) you have performed.

2. It is not a failure if uke escapes from the technique. If you continue to hold your centre and continue as shite and they decide to enter again, you just continue. O-Sensei often said if he was to demonstrate a real aikido confrontation, the other person would die.
Not merely from technique I might add, but from sheer exhaustion.

3. It is not important form uke to fall, not at all. Neutralizing a threat means just that. Uke need not be killed or unconscious.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:36 AM   #28
phitruong
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

read a book and found an interesting quote - "only the soul matters". no strategy, no mind, no ki, no technique, no enemy as long as the soul is intact in the end.
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:48 PM   #29
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Phi Throng: "Only the Soul Matters"

In the big picture. I think you are right.
Recently allot of monks have paid the price in Myanmar and left the world with their souls intact.

Was/Is their strategy as efficient as was Ghandi's? Perhaps only time will tell.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:23 PM   #30
Aikibu
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?
Simple is best...

To become one with Your Other... the Universe.. Yourself...

If you can "practice" that at the right moment then you have Harmony.... and are expressing the "Strategy" of Aikido.

William Hazen
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:46 PM   #31
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Would someone assist me in further developing or outright critiquing my last thesis?
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Old 01-17-2008, 06:36 PM   #32
Aikibu
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Sure Chris,

Having read all the posts Most folks are confusing Tactics with Strategy.

Perhaps an understanding of the differance between the two would be a good place to start.

Here's a hint... Any tactic that results in "Defeat" is not the "Strategic Goal" of Aikido.

William Hazen

Off to practice I go...

Last edited by Aikibu : 01-17-2008 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 01-17-2008, 06:39 PM   #33
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido?

A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.

Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose

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Old 01-17-2008, 07:38 PM   #34
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

I will have to look into that author.

I try to run my security consulting company on a win-win "green" for of capitalism. It is an uphill battle as most of my employees are coneservatives who figure capitalism is based on win-lose adversarial relationships. And those are my employees. Any mistake I make, they often feel in was intentional and based on greed or ill will.

In an adversarial real world encounter, let's say I am negotiating the return of a kidnapped person in Mexico, Von Claussevitch's dictum that I "place my adversary in a position where what I want him to do is less devastating to him than that which he wants to do". Is this not also Aiki?
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:54 PM   #35
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

I would not read "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" (A Westbrook/O Ratti) to gain any great philosophical insight on aiki strategy. However, it is a good general over view of aikido and a good distllation/codification of the basics

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Old 01-17-2008, 09:41 PM   #36
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

i know the book.
you are right.
i do like to lead adversaries along the path they wish to take and then deviate by degrees until they are not where they want to be.

Another form of non-contention is the Chinese (and Daito) idea of suck in- spit out.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:53 PM   #37
crbateman
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Is there a common factor that happens to uke no matter what tactic is applied?
Perhaps only the loss of control over the outcome... The failure to complete whatever it is he set out to do.

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Is balance the same as being unstable?
Assuming you meant "Is unbalanced the same as being unstable?", I would have to say unbalanced is a means to become unstable, but there are other ways to be unstable without being unbalanced, so it is not necessarily a two-way equality.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:50 PM   #38
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote:
What do you mean by it?
Hi Chris,

Forrest Morgan (Living the Martial Way) makes an important distinction between doctrine, strategy and tactics; "doctrine" is a set of broad and general beliefs, which I would say encompasses, not just the "principles", but also the quasi-religious and spiritual philosophy of the art. "Strategy" is the general or 'broad brush' plans for fighting, developed according to the beliefs of the selected doctrine. And "tactics", are the specific techniques and maneuvers employed to carry out those plans.

It's not a loaded question, and neither was my answer. You asked, "what is the essential strategy of Aikido, to which I replied "aiki". To me, aiki is the fundamental strategy thru which the tactics of "blend", evade, enter, ma-ai, kuzushi, applied control, redirection, lock, throw, atemi etc. are carried out.

A fundamental principle (i.e. doctrine) of Aikido is not meeting force with force. The general strategy to accomplish this is to join with their force at, or before, the moment of contact - IOW, to "ai" with their "ki". How one does that, on a very simplistic level, is thru the tactics of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki (evasion, "blending"), incorporating the key tactical elements of timing, rhythm, and distance.

Redirection and striking "between the gaps", are also tactics which fall within the general strategy of "aiki" - consistent with the doctrinal principle of not meeting force with force, and yet, still joining with their ki, albeit in a manner that is not at first obvious. (To me, atemi is merely another form of "redirection").

But, on another, more interesting, level, one could also employ the same strategy of "aiki" using the tactic of obtaining kuzushi at the moment of contact.

So, to me, "aiki" is the fundamental (basic and essential) strategy of the art. No "ai", no "ki" or no "aiki" => no aikido. Obviously, what that means to different people is going to be different. Considering that the strategems of the ryuha is kept secret to maintain a combative advantage and superiority, I'll end by saying this: aiki is simply one of many "basic" combat strategies... and it would behove people to heed Morgan's advice of building skills around a doctrinal core.

But I'm sure you already know that.

Ignatius
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:45 AM   #39
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

excellent
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:09 AM   #40
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido? A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.
Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose
IMHO, I think of those as the possible outcome frame of references. The strategy is the map the get there. The tactical is actually driving the car.

Guess its all about the direction we drive. And since we are going in circles, I think I'll just get dizzy.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:26 AM   #41
ChrisMoses
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, "WIN/WIN" is the strategic goal of aikido?

A. Westbrook and O.Ratti do a good job of explaining the various basic strategies that can be employed in the first few pages of their book.

Win/win
lose/win
win/lose
lose/lose
Those are outcomes, not really strategies. No one goes into an encounter with the strategy of, "I'm going to lose, they're going to win."

Dynamic Sphere should be left on the shelf these days. In another thread you talked about how much has changed in how some military combatives are taught since 1999. ADS was written in the 60's by some relative novices in the art, and should be approached with that context in mind.

Chris Moses
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:20 AM   #42
MM
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

Forrest Morgan (Living the Martial Way) makes an important distinction between doctrine, strategy and tactics; "doctrine" is a set of broad and general beliefs, which I would say encompasses, not just the "principles", but also the quasi-religious and spiritual philosophy of the art. "Strategy" is the general or 'broad brush' plans for fighting, developed according to the beliefs of the selected doctrine. And "tactics", are the specific techniques and maneuvers employed to carry out those plans.

It's not a loaded question, and neither was my answer. You asked, "what is the essential strategy of Aikido, to which I replied "aiki". To me, aiki is the fundamental strategy thru which the tactics of "blend", evade, enter, ma-ai, kuzushi, applied control, redirection, lock, throw, atemi etc. are carried out.

A fundamental principle (i.e. doctrine) of Aikido is not meeting force with force. The general strategy to accomplish this is to join with their force at, or before, the moment of contact - IOW, to "ai" with their "ki". How one does that, on a very simplistic level, is thru the tactics of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki (evasion, "blending"), incorporating the key tactical elements of timing, rhythm, and distance.

Redirection and striking "between the gaps", are also tactics which fall within the general strategy of "aiki" - consistent with the doctrinal principle of not meeting force with force, and yet, still joining with their ki, albeit in a manner that is not at first obvious. (To me, atemi is merely another form of "redirection").

But, on another, more interesting, level, one could also employ the same strategy of "aiki" using the tactic of obtaining kuzushi at the moment of contact.

So, to me, "aiki" is the fundamental (basic and essential) strategy of the art. No "ai", no "ki" or no "aiki" => no aikido. Obviously, what that means to different people is going to be different. Considering that the strategems of the ryuha is kept secret to maintain a combative advantage and superiority, I'll end by saying this: aiki is simply one of many "basic" combat strategies... and it would behove people to heed Morgan's advice of building skills around a doctrinal core.

But I'm sure you already know that.
Hi Ignatius,
I think I'd have to generally agree with your post. But, I think aiki might blur the line between strategy and doctrine. At least for Ueshiba Morihei Aikido. I believe his way of being, his body, his mind was literally aiki. So when he talked about being one with the Universe, it was him and how he was aiki that allowed it to happen.

For others, their aiki was used differently. In that, it becomes more of a strategy than a doctrine.

But, the original question was "What is the essential strategy in Aikido technique?" That question is really what is a strategy within a tactic? Kind of a convoluted question. To gain a better answer, I think we need to rewrite and ask as you noted, What is the essential strategy in Aikido.

Even then, there will be a myriad of replies, none necessarily wrong. For each student went his/her own way. To get a much better answer, one would have to ask specifically, What is the essential strategy of Ueshiba Morihei's Aikido or What is the essential strategy of Ueshiba Kisshomaru's Aikido or What is the essential strategy of Shioda's Aikido, etc. Each student's strategies tended to run slightly different.

Goldsbury sensei very well illustrated what Kisshomaru's Aikido doctrine was in his latest column. We can all see how Kisshomaru's strategy worked its wonders throughout the world and gave Aikido a very large following. That's one example of defining doctrine and strategy. Probably not exactly the answer some were looking for, but you can see how general the questions really are.

In a general sense, I like what you wrote about the doctrine, strategy, and tactics of Aikido. I think it mostly fits Ueshiba Morihei's Aikido, too. But, people have different definitions and physical abilities with respect to "aiki". One of these days, maybe I'll figure out what Ueshiba Morihei really meant.

Mark
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:47 PM   #43
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Good points on the win/win thing being on endstate...not a strategy! Thanks for correcting me on that! duh!

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Old 01-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #44
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

I agree on ADS Chris. Hence, why I said "basic" and "overview"

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Old 01-18-2008, 05:49 PM   #45
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Situation and Mission

In my work, I go out into the world to some (1) really bad places and/ or (2) with people who are at risk for one reason or another.

I expect that if some bad guys have us in their sights, they will probably have avoided my surveillance detection efforts and my protective intelligence system.

My mission is to avoid or at least mitigate the risks despite the intelligence failures that have occurred.

Doctrine of Battle:

I will do whaterver it take to efficiently mitigate a threat to my charge. That includes, physical, financial or legal harm and/or embarrassment. I personally choose the way that least damages my soul (Karma).

Strategy
I choose to command an incident by splitting the opponent's mind so that I can regain control of an incident. At first contact, whether it be physical, vocal or visual, I choose tactical methods that cause either mental or physical instability. While that instability is occurring, I seize the opponent's balance, thus taking control of both the King (stability) and Queen (Balance) on the chessboard.

Tactics
Voice
Posture and weight shift
Heavy hands with applied geometry for biped tipping

Techniques
Miriads of learned movement that are instinctive at this point.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:05 PM   #46
eyrie
 
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, I think aiki might blur the line between strategy and doctrine.
An astute observation, Mark... There is a fine line between doctrine and strategy, but as Morgan points out, strategic objectives are the bridge between doctrine and strategy - to which I believe is what the various intepretations of "harmonizing with your opponent" alludes to. IOW, if the doctrine is to not meet force with force, then one strategic objective might be to "harmonize", by way of the overarching strategy of aiki.

Quote:
At least for Ueshiba Morihei Aikido. I believe his way of being, his body, his mind was literally aiki. So when he talked about being one with the Universe, it was him and how he was aiki that allowed it to happen.
I believe Bruce Lee alluded to the same thing in the opening scene in Enter the Dragon.

Quote:
Each student's strategies tended to run slightly different.
True, BUT the fundamental strategy for each of those you mentioned, is (should be? oughta be?) essentially the same. Otherwise, it might have been called something else other than aiki-whatever.

Quote:
Goldsbury sensei very well illustrated what Kisshomaru's Aikido doctrine was in his latest column. We can all see how Kisshomaru's strategy worked its wonders throughout the world and gave Aikido a very large following. That's one example of defining doctrine and strategy. Probably not exactly the answer some were looking for, but you can see how general the questions really are.
I haven't read the article, so I can't comment. But it seems like you're alluding to a strategy for promulgating the spread of aikido - which, to my mind is a different thing to what Chris' question asks. However, I interpreted the question to mean martial/combative strategy, and judging by the responses, is what most people have interpreted it to mean. Thanks for pointing out a different perspective though...

Ignatius
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:48 PM   #47
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
i find it quite gutsy and risky to irimi with blades drawn.
I'd think most would prefer to irimi in the opposite direction with blades drawn.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:17 PM   #48
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Situation and Mission
I like how you've introduced language-specific elements of military combat and maneuvering, and chess - both of which, I think, are highly appropriate to how people engaged in martial pursuits should be thinking.

For me, the primary mission in any encounter is to avoid, escape and evade (E&E) safely - based on my personal values and beliefs, which I believe are consistent with the overarching doctrine of the art. Secondary missions might involve other considerations.

In terms of strategy, this will generally depend on context, situation and circumstances. Generally, Plan A will be to, using a military analogy, create a diversion and effect a safe exit. Plan B might be to "defend the fort" - in this case my personal safety and/or that of my family. If all else fails, Plan C could be to launch a counter-offensive and force the enemy to retreat. Plan D, E, F, G might be something else, and in all cases, enable me to complete my primary mission.

Tactics are fluid, and generally this will involve any skill, technique or maneuver that will allow completion of strategic objectives and the primary mission.

I realize that some of these terms crossover - e.g. E&E can also be strategy and tactic. However, I think if one approaches it in the manner of waging war, and defining it in terms of Objectives, Plan of Attack and Execution, it becomes clear which is which.

Ignatius
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:57 PM   #49
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Regarding Irimi with blades.
i have spent some time working with Munenori's idea of "no sword" style. Concerning 4 foot razorblades, inside can be pretty darn safe. they also become wonderful levers. Uke's sword becomes mine and uke gets cut with it, often while uke is still holding it.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:00 AM   #50
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Re: Strategy and Aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Regarding Irimi with blades.
i have spent some time working with Munenori's idea of "no sword" style. Concerning 4 foot razorblades, inside can be pretty darn safe. they also become wonderful levers. Uke's sword becomes mine and uke gets cut with it, often while uke is still holding it.
Hi Chris,

I don't know you or what you're about -- so please just take this at face value. Are you serious about that or is it a rhetorical expression of a technical ideal? I understand the gist of what you are saying, but I am genuinely curious what the confidence you express above implies about your apparent attacker. Does the sword confer a handicap or is he necessarily a slouch for attacking?

-ck
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