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Old 01-17-2008, 09:03 PM   #51
senshincenter
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Yes, I agree - as much as you can have in your bag, the better. One doesn't have to use everything. When I'm critical, I'm critical from a theoretical point of view. I'm appreciative of anyone training on a regular basis - no matter what it is.

So, back to theoretical issues...

Here's the video - got it filmed and up today.

It's all on one tape - sorry for the long load times. This was easier for me. Apologies.

Before I say anything, let me say we go through many repetitive and redundant safety procedures that guarantee that there is not only no ammo in our weapons but no ammo in the entire building. I do not advocate this type of training but under some very set-in-stone protocols regarding the danger of training with actual firearms. We, our group, rather be bothered to hell by long safety procedures that we have to repeat over and over through the training , as long as we get to point our duty weapon at a human target and practice pulling the trigger under conditions that call for such responses. That's the choice we make. It's not for everyone - but it is for us.

Additionally, let me say that this type of training is principle-based - not scenario based. That is to say, we are purposefully ambiguous regarding the descriptions under which we are performing a given tactic. If we end up discussing such things as scenario, we do it off the mat, in a group of our peers, while sharing incidents and using multimedia to setup our contexts. When we do that, we still look not to say what is impossible or possible regarding scenarios but rather to develop familiarity and consistency regarding our actions and our reasons for them.

Now the video: In the first section, I have us demonstrating the the 21 foot rule experiment. Again, my take is that pistol rounds do not stop an attacker from moving forward. Additionally, my position holds that it is more likely that you will NOT see your shots hit than you will. That said, in my mind, I'm looking at a situation where it is likely my shots will not stop the forward progress of an attacker. This in turn means, because I cannot see the shots hit their mark, my attacker will respond the same way whether they are hit or not by my rounds. This means I won't know what's what and therefore should train for not knowing what's what.

Note: For some reference... It should be said that Michael is using a level III holster and mine is a level IV.

In the next section, you see part of what we are thinking. We use angles and movement - basic Aikido stuff: using spirals and circles against more linear shapes. We look to move off the line first before we draw, as this forces the attacker to lose his/her initiative, as they now have to react to our movement, vs. us just waiting there for them. When we move, we are looking to put the attacker to our rear on a spiral. This has them appearing close to us from a third point of view - the way roller coasters might appear close to each other when the go by side-by-side. But like that, the cars are actually quite far from each other because they are one behind the other, not one side by side with the other. I've done some slow motions captures of this moment in the video. This is what allows very small movements to make for big misses on the part of the knife-wielder. Additionally, by putting them to the rear, we create distance for us to use our weapons without raising retention issues, and without us being open to other weapons (from man-made to god-man) the attacker might have (each type being diminished according to their advantages - to differing degrees). We are always going to assume an attacking suspect is armed, and armed with more than we see - so this is important to us. The obvious point of this drill is to show that with this tactic, 21 feet is plenty of space to draw down on a knife wielding suspect.

In the third section, we try and put our money where our mouth is: If we don't need so much distance with this tactic, can we do it from normal interviewing distances? Our answer is yes. We get our "yes" by combining Aikido angle of deviations with it's angles of deflections. When we do this, again, we are looking to bring our superior weapon to bear without raising retention issues or exposing us to other weapons the suspect has (e.g. fists, kicks, guns, knives, takedowns). Additionally, we look to combine angle of deflection and angle of deviation to generate an angle of disturbance in the suspect. This in turn makes them reactionary (i.e. lose the initiative).

Note: We do not know what attack the suspect is coming with when they attack with the knife.

In next section, I'm demonstrating two of our gun retention techniques. Here, we are again looking to generate the same things: use movement first to put the attacker behind you on a spiral, combine angle of deviation and angle of deflection to generate an angle of disturbance in the attacker, create distance to bring your superior weapon to bear without raising retention issues and without opening you up to more attacks from more weapons. We are doing these two techniques from a homolateral attack and a cross-lateral attack.

In the next section, you see the gun retention technique I mentioned earlier - the one from the ground. I'm sorry, but we forgot to film the Kimura (standard) version that I rejected as impractical. You only get our version. Here, again, same principle: use movement first, etc., etc...

In the last section, we have the same principles but we are opting to use the yang versions. Same thing: move first, angle of deviation/deflection, create distance, draw weapon, etc....

A final note: In our opinion, one only has to resort to these tactics because one screwed up big-time some place else - such as in talking with the suspect, control the space of the engagement, deploying one's partners, etc. A whole lot of stuff has to go wrong for these kinds of things to come to fruition. But, we still feel it's important to train in them - because of the irreversibility of things when these types of mistakes might happen.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/arcondemo1.html

Last edited by senshincenter : 01-17-2008 at 09:16 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:07 AM   #52
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Dave,

I could not view this on my computer.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/arcondemo1.html

reason; unknown.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:42 AM   #53
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I just watched it on my computer. It's quicktime video.

Interesting, the first part looked exactly like the practice we do for the cross grab shihonage we do when uke is charging at you full speed from a distance, and watching it had the same feeling of the timing.

great stuff.

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Old 01-18-2008, 09:47 AM   #54
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Dave,

I could not view this on my computer.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/arcondemo1.html

reason; unknown.
Chris,

I just pretend I know what I'm doing with computers. I'm afraid I have no idea why it's not viewable. Let me ask though: Are the other videos on our site viewable to you? I'm asking because I put this last one up exactly like those. If those work, then this last one should work (I'm guessing). The only difference might be the size of the file - which might make it hard to view under certain conditions. Or, I might ask: Do you have Quicktime on your computer? If not, you can download it for free from the Quicktime site. You might want to try that.

talk soon,
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:07 AM   #55
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David,

Great website! I couldn't view the clip either, but will try the download of Quicktime and see what happens.

If you ever run into Sergeant Win Smith of UCSB PD, give him my regards. Win used to work for me when I was the contract Chief at Calipatria.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:33 PM   #56
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

hi Mike,

Were you able to view the other videos on the site? Wondering if it's just the ARCON video that is not working...?

I think Win Smith is a deputy now with our agency - SBSO. I'll be sure to pass him the well wishes if I run in to him. :-)

take care,
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:53 PM   #57
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

The video is definitely viewable in both Firefox and Internet Explorer, but will require Quicktime to be installed.

The video is excellent and the discourse in this thread is fantastic. Keep it up guys.

Ps. Were the babies there to add a sense of realism to your training? hehe. It actually kinda freaked me out when the little one is so close to you guys while you are twirling around . . . glad nobody got hurt.
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:42 PM   #58
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Yeah, I realize that is a bit odd from what most folks do. I had second thoughts about showing that to the world, actually. But, we all are family folks, and we don't use the dojo as a man-cave, a place to escape from the world. Does that make sense? This is a very important aspect of our dojo. Our children, our parenthood, is a part of our warrior code - something we want to share with them, something we want for them. They are all in the dojo - it's crowded with them, every time we train. It's always been like that - always will be. Additionally, we take advantage of the awareness issues they raise, such that we can work hard with them on the mat, etc. These are the things we are trying to have and to gain. It's different, but it works for us.

d

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Old 01-19-2008, 07:42 AM   #59
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David:

I love what you said about having children in the dojo! When I ran a school in Connecticut, my youngest child was just an infant. My wife and I brought him to class and he would watch from his car seat. If he would cry, my wife would feed him, or I would even hold him while helping students practice technique.

13 years later, he is preparing for his nidan in Shodokan Karate under Takahashi Sensei, 8th dan, and has been an Aikido student under me since I have opened my school one year ago.

Budo is about protecting our family and our community. Having them in that environment is a powerful reminder of why we do what we do. It also provided continuity into the next generation.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:46 PM   #60
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Okay - I ventured way out of my comfort zone concerning computers and actually got the video posted on Youtube. The quality is much less than that on my site, so some of the detail is not visible, but the points, I think, can still be viewed enough for continuing this discussion.

Go Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeqjlN24Hns

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:28 AM   #61
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David,

Query, did you feel more comfortable when you circled to your right? It seemed as if you had considerable more time when you did, as opposed to moving left or reversing direction from right to left.

The irimi movement at the end of the demo looked pretty effective too.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

Michael
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:32 AM   #62
Peter Ralls
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David

That's some very good training demonstrated there. I think what you are presenting is a good example of how you can take aikido principles and by training them in realistic scenario based exercises with committed high energy attacks, you end up developing skills that are very effective in real world self defense. Nice stuff!
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:44 PM   #63
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David,

Excellent training runs. That's the way it should be done.

If I may make a couple of observations...

There was some concern earlier regarding my comment about breaking right (or left) at mai i. Tori is breaking at Mai i in some of the instances. In others, Tori broke at mai i times 2. The way tori did this was to break right as soon as uke posts his left foot during the run. Break left when Uke posts his right foot during the run.

The times Tori got in trouble were when the above timing was off. thus, he was able to be tracked and had to go into a run while shooting backwards.

Regarding the ground fight, as you said, that is a cutting edge workshop. I ran into several LE trainers who attended Frontsight seminars. We had many discussions regarding the subject.

The man I hired to do the majority of the edged weapons stuff (including groundwork) was Felix Valencia. He was danny Inosanto's bulldog in the 1980's. He is a Filipino artist who learned Hawaiian Lua, Silat, and was on the Thai boxing curcuit in Asia. His understanding of ground fighting with a knife was exquisite.

He was given sokeship of the Lameco system a few years ago. His website is: http://www.valencialameco.com/index.html
He teaches police and military seminars worldwide. You may enjoy his perspective. I may have a chance to upload some of his system on u-tube.

Finally, I think few folks are studying Traditional Daito finishes (rather than Aikido finishes) and modifying them for cuffing procedures. The Turkish website below eloquently displays some of what I am talking about. Food for thought...
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=sobukaidojo

Perhaps sometime I can come by and watch a session first hand. I suspect I will learn allot.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:03 PM   #64
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Dave,

A final observation if you will suffer me a while longer...

In the section where attacks are made "at arm's length", I think you and I both agree that the "Ractionary Gap" is just not great enough for a truly efficient "circular retreat", "present weapon from system 3/4 holster" and point" in tactic.

This scenario is what bodyguards train the most. Up close and at arm's reach. we are not protected under "color of law" but the system works well for us.... even better for you.

You enter at the first sense of aggression rather than wait to see what the citizen has taken out of his pocket.

The "lead hand" (support hand) is placed in the crook of the citizen's shoulder (between the deltoid and pectoral - Lung point 1 in acupuncture). We used to call this a "stop hit". I would use this immediately once I even felt an aggressive raising of the arm during a field interview situation. I do not care if he was just presenting his driver's license to me. If it is aggressive, I stop the action.

If I sense that there is more aggression while executing this countermeasure, I would place my weapon hand on his opposite shoulder and my weapon side foot behind the back of this knee. By turning him in a clockwise direction, he is literally screwed into the ground ending up with a spinal lock and his dangerous hand trapped by your weapon hand and in view for your inspection.

If it is a driver's license he was presenting... no injury - no fowl.
If it is a weapon, he gets dumped hard on his tailbone, his arm ends up in an upward ude garami. The weapon is either stripped or his shoulder is displaced. Chokes are great from this position as well. And your partner can flank him in a manner that you are not in the line of fire.
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:30 PM   #65
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
David,

Query, did you feel more comfortable when you circled to your right? It seemed as if you had considerable more time when you did, as opposed to moving left or reversing direction from right to left.

The irimi movement at the end of the demo looked pretty effective too.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
M,

I don't think I have a side I tend to go with. It is more a matter of what the attacker is providing, plus some environmental conditions that existed at the time - not to mentioned how smooth my draw may have been (for whatever reason - it's almost never the same). So, sometimes the attacker, let's say, looks to head me off, and should I continue, he won't be on the spiral. That might be one reason why I change direction. Or, let's say some of the kids are on the mat - noting there were two more on the mat than visible on camera. Hence, another change in direction. So, I have to adapt - not picking a favorite thing to do, etc. I can't say that's always the case for my attackers. They often have a strategy they go with and they attempt to play that over and over again - hence, why some of the things I end up doing look similar time and time again.

That said, the only other constant principle I have, other than the ones already mentioned, is that I want to be just out of the range of the attacker - or, I want to be as close as I can get to make my shots more sure of hitting their target, at the same time that I'm not exposing myself to all the other issues that come with having my weapon out and being close. This is more important when I'm having to shoot one-handed and while on the move. Shot percentages go way down when you have to do that - as you know. But, if I'm making a shot from about one or two feet away, aiming at the broadside of my attacker, I'm going to do pretty okay. :-) (A good thing when having to shoot a weapon in public - too.)

Additionally, another thing I do as a constant - but is more technical - is that if I go to my support side I shoot one-handed. If I go to my primary side, I shoot two-handed (at least a bit sooner). Another technical thing I try and maintain is that I don't move to the rear - only facing forward. This is to prevent tripping and to increase my ability to adjust my speed, to keep me in the proper range for this kind of high-stress shooting.

In terms of strategy, I never want to get too far away from the idea that a cop is a weapons-man - a gunfighter. I am not against empty-handed fighting, but I think cops should be gunfighters first and last. If I use my hands, it's only because I had too, and I only had to in order to get to my firearm: a gunfighter. So I don't like to stand there toe-to-toe and try some hand-to-hand technique in order to settle the situation, at least not in these life-or-death environments. Getting an arrest may be a different story - at least tactically (not strategically) - but this situation of experimenting with the 21 foot rule is not about affecting an arrest, they are about surviving and going home. They are self-defense, when weapons are involved. In these kinds of situations, my experience suggests that folks that stay and fight with empty hands - used differently than was demonstrated - folks that try techniques like you see time and time again in the video links I posted, well, these are folks that get ran over, overwhelmed, tied up, caught in retention issues, taken to ground (where their belt and vest - the gunfighter's tools - become more obstacle than benefit) BUT FOR WHEN they are not really in a life-or-death situation. Once you stick in more adversaries and more weapons - the point becomes obvious, for me at least. But, I feel it should be obvious already. okay - I'm rambling - and I got my next shift to get too. Talk more on Wednesday - will reply to all the comments then.

good night,
d

Last edited by senshincenter : 01-20-2008 at 11:34 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:05 AM   #66
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David Valadez wrote:

Quote:
In terms of strategy, I never want to get too far away from the idea that a cop is a weapons-man - a gunfighter. I am not against empty-handed fighting, but I think cops should be gunfighters first and last. If I use my hands, it's only because I had too, and I only had to in order to get to my firearm: a gunfighter. So I don't like to stand there toe-to-toe and try some hand-to-hand technique in order to settle the situation, at least not in these life-or-death environments. Getting an arrest may be a different story
I think this is a very important thing to point out. The SITUATION, CONTEXT, and TOOLS, dictate the response. Thanks for all your info, knowledge, and wisdom.

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Old 01-21-2008, 07:54 PM   #67
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Peter Ralls wrote: View Post
David

That's some very good training demonstrated there. I think what you are presenting is a good example of how you can take aikido principles and by training them in realistic scenario based exercises with committed high energy attacks, you end up developing skills that are very effective in real world self defense. Nice stuff!
Peter,

This is pretty much in line with my own thinking: "you can take aikido principles and by training them in realistic scenario based exercises with committed high energy attacks, you end up developing skills that are very effective in real world self defense." For me, it just makes no sense to see Aikido training in any other way. I'm not saying this because I am looking for an "evolution" of the art. Nor am I looking for a "modern" application of the art. For me, the art is principle-based in terms of its training. It is therefore principle-based in terms of its application. AND, if those principles are universal - as Osensei says they are (and I agree) - then one is supposed to be able to apply Aikido principle in everything, all the time, for forever.

The point of training then is to apply principle, not ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, irimi nage, etc. Sure, you might apply these technique, but that is simply the tactical coincidence of a multitude of situational elements that can occur because these techniques can be used to carry principles (like a vessel carries a liquid) to the student of the art. In other words, it's not really a matter of Aikido technique being effective, for this or that, for police work, it's if one's understanding of the art allows for one to move beyond it's pedagogical idealizations (techniques, its prescribed attacks, etc.) or not. This is a vital point to understand, BECAUSE idealizations are only idealizations because they are NOT universals. That means, at a profound philosophical level, techniques like shomenuchi irimi nage CANNOT possibly be Aikido.

For me, every time I hear someone ask or state something on the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of Aikido, they are always talking about technique or training methods. This is a very limited understanding of the art - in my opinion. It's similar to mistaking the map for the territory. Now, of course, most dojo, at least all the ones I have ever been to, go ahead and tell their practitioners, either directly or indirectly ("Do this and only this if you want to get good at Aikido" or "Don't do that if you want to be good at Aikido"), or by way of negative or positive statements (e.g. "Aikido is not about fighting," "Aikido techniques do to work in a fight."), that technique and training method is all there is, all that counts, etc. - that they should all be very satisfied with the map. So what is someone to do? Because that is one uphill battle - one a person wages with him/herself, or not at all.

I'll get to the other replies as soon as I can - please forgive.
d

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Old 01-22-2008, 11:51 AM   #68
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Great post Dave on principles versus techniques.

Kata embodies techniques. Techniques embodies principles.

Principles are the core of the art, techniqes are its shell.

To be aikidoka is not only in how well you demonstrate technique but in how throroughly you have embodied the principles in every aspect of your life. As the nacrocosm evolves, so you can see iit n each microcosm.
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:21 PM   #69
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Great post Dave on principles versus techniques.

Kata embodies techniques. Techniques embodies principles.

Principles are the core of the art, techniqes are its shell.
Hi Chris,
I would be inclined to phrase this differently...

Kata embodies principle. People who don't understand Kata training, the folks who advocate sparring as the only way to develop proper skills for instance, are apt to look at Kata as sterile forms. But if you look at classical kata, they are specifically designed to embody certain principles. Once the practitioner has mastered the principle in that kata, he moves on to other kata which embody other principles or perhaps expand upon the ones done earlier.

At a certain point the practitioner has internalized the principles and the Kata begin to shift. In other words, the kata are not memorized sequences of movements but rather a series of movements embodying various principles. When the principles have been mastered, the practitioner is able to apply the principles generally, allowing his technique to develop out of principle.

Technique, if it is more than just a simple motor skill, is a spontaneous expression of principle. It is created in the instant when principle manifests in an actual encounter.

So principle exists, we use Kata (Forms) to align ourselves with principle, then as we move through the world, this internalized principle manifests as technique.

Now many people do kata, for instance Saotome Sensei has 12 Kumitachi (paired sword forms) which the folks at Nidan need to demonstrate. My experience has been that most folks merely memorize the moves and go through them with a partner without any understanding of the underlying principles.

The result is movements which mimic technique but are not because they are devoid of principle. No one teaches what the underlying principles are and people are generally too unmotivated to discover them for themselves. So in the end there really is no Kata in the true sense because the forms are devoid of principle. Endless repetition of these forms will never yield "technique" merely hollow movement which cannot actually be applied. No amount of mere repetition will yield understanding of the principles at work. One must take each movement of each form and analyze it, look at its variations within the structure of he form to discover the principles governing the movement. Then put the movements into the whole again and look at their relationship, once again investigating the possible variations.

In the koryu with their forms that have been handed down over centuries the forms themselves embody these principles. If one does the forms with an experienced senior partner or teacher, he or she takes the "losing" role and guides the practitioner through the form in such a way that eventually the principles embodied in the form become internalized, often without overt discussion of those principles. They are simply in the form.

But Aikido has no Kata of this type. All of our Kata were made up by our teachers. These are not 500 year old Kata but rather forms created in our lifetimes. Oft times these forms were created to give some structure to what otherwise had none, namely the Founder's sword technique which he never taught systematically. So you have a sort of backwards process taking place whereby certain teachers looked at the techniques O-Sensei did and then tried to construct forms which contained them. Some, like Nishio Sensei, specifically created weapons forms that directly related to empty hand movement. Others, like Saito Sensei adapted whole forms he had done with the Founder that derived from O-Sensei's exposure to classical ryu ha. However, these forms cannot be seen as identical to the classical forms because they are taken out of context and the underlying principles operating are different even though the outer forms are similar.

My point is, that with the sword forms of Aikido, regardless of which teacher's, there is no essential benefit to merely repeating the forms over and over, which is what most people do. The Kata are merely a tool for giving some structure to your training, they have no inherent value in and of themselves. People need to use them to discover principle for themselves. The forms can be changed based on your understanding; in fact I don't think you should be doing them the same at 6th Dan as you were at Shodan. Use the Kata to discover Principle; Principle will then yield technique.

The same thing applies to empty hand but it's harder to see because the practice in Aikido empty hand is less structured than it is with the weapons work. I have actually heard people say that Aikido has no Kata, revealing that they don't understand that our basic training format is all about Kata. However, most folks have trouble with the flexible Form Aikido empty hand takes and attempt to focus on technique rather than principle.

This is one of the main problems with how we train. We are supposed to be discovering the principles of aiki by way of our training. Yet the structure of most classes is anything but aiki. The teacher demonstrates a technique, usually a specific variation of that technique. While the teacher might have been skilled enough for this technique to be executed according to aiki principles, the students are expected to reproduce that technique exactly as the teacher just did it. So they immediately begin to manhandle their partners to look like the outer form of the technique regardless of whether their partner had given them the type of attack, with the proper energy to make that technique the one that flows naturally from the attack. In other words, quite often the uke is giving his partner quite a different energy from what the teacher's partner had given him, but if the student responds by making the adjustment that would naturally flow, he is corrected.

If we are to develop any real skill in aiki we need to be allowed to let the technique become what it needs to, not what we "want" it to. If the teacher wants to teach a very specific principle, then an exercise should be designed which would very narrowly focus on that principle. Often, when I see a student do something different from the way I showed the technique. before I correct them, i do the technique on their partner. Often I discover that the partner is doing something which makes a variation the proper version. Aiki is about connection and letting the energy go where it needs to go based on how you have come together. Either you structure the Form in a way that is very specifically designed to teach a particular principle, such as the forms used in Daito Ryu, or you encourage the students to develop an understanding of principle through "feeling" what the technique needs to be. Years of grabbing and manipulating your partner to make his form conform to the form of the teacher's partner will not yield an understanding of aiki. I know this because that's the way I trained and it didn't yield any understanding of what my teacher was doing. Actually, quite the opposite. I could have kept training for decades the way I was training and I wouldn't have figured it out.

In a given Aikido technique there are many principles functioning simultaneously. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to discover them merely through endless repetitions of waza. When the class is doing waza, there should be the flexibility to allow variation of the technique to occur as the uke changes how he attacks. If the teacher wishes to teach a particular technique in a particular manner, he or she must instruct the ukes how to deliver the type of attack which naturally leads to that technique. Otherwise you have a mat full of people getting all sorts of different variations of an attack and trying to come up with exactly the same result. That is fundamentally not the way to develop aiki skills.

I think we put way too much attention on technique with no understanding of principle. It should be the opposite. We should focus on developing an understanding of principle and then and only then start layering in technical manifestations of those techniques. I think this approach could shorten the learning curve by decades, literally.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:32 PM   #70
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I believe I fully understand your position.
my use of the words kata and technique came more from pugilism, I.e. Traditions that focus less on the connection between two centers. Kata being a string of techniques.

Renshi Clodig teaches few techniques and teaches them quite slowly so that you fully understand the principles involved. When tested, you must be able to perform under any conditions( no matter what form of energy is given to you).

It doesn't take studying many techniques before you evolve beyond technique. In the videos where I irimi while I take a punch to the jaw and where I smother a boxer's flurry, I envisioned no specific ending or technique. In the third video, my uke moved faster than I was talking and I had to move quite instinctively. In one instance I threw him with my chin. The principles make the technique happen. Often you can barely name the waza according by a traditional name, only by the principles you applied to topple uke.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:59 PM   #71
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I believe I fully understand your position.
my use of the words kata and technique came more from pugilism, I.e. Traditions that focus less on the connection between two centers. Kata being a string of techniques.

Renshi Clodig teaches few techniques and teaches them quite slowly so that you fully understand the principles involved. When tested, you must be able to perform under any conditions( no matter what form of energy is given to you).

It doesn't take studying many techniques before you evolve beyond technique. In the videos where I irimi while I take a punch to the jaw and where I smother a boxer's flurry, I envisioned no specific ending or technique. In the third video, my uke moved faster than I was talking and I had to move quite instinctively. In one instance I threw him with my chin. The principles make the technique happen. Often you can barely name the waza according by a traditional name, only by the principles you applied to topple uke.
Actually, Angier Sensei was one of the people I credit with changing my perception of proper training. He would take a very simple movement, not a whole technique, but just the crucial element and do that slowly until you felt it in your body. The level of relaxation he exhibits is phenomenal. We once spent one day and a half at a seminar in which we did one simple movement. At the end of that time, the only ones who were still with him, not sitting around talking or messing about with other stuff, were the three Aikido guys, which I thought was funny... where else are you going to find folks who think that how you turn your wrist over when grabbed is interesting enough to spend almost two days doing it?

Anyway, it really struck me how he wouldn't go on to something more complex until you had the component piece correct. There's simply no point. I think we could learn a lot from that. If we spent quite a bit more time at the beginning of our training developing a sense of how correct technique should actually feel, precisely what your body is doing when executing technique, practice of waza would be far more productive. We spend years repeating technique wrong and then have to re-program ourselves when we finally figure it out.

Anyway, I have never met Clodig Sensei but Don Angier is one of the very finest martial artists I have ever seen. The first time I trained with him back in the 80's was when I first realized that an American Caucasian could actually be every bit as good as the best of the Japanese teachers. I had never seen anyone functioning at that level and it inspired me. I wish more people could have the chance to feel what that level of skill is like... and then realize that it can be explained and taught in a systematic fashion.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:08 PM   #72
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I think I understand what you are saying regarding a reaction gap. From that point of view, I would say you are absolutely right. That kind of distance, when combined with that type of exact tactic, is probably going to be pretty problematic. However, here is the totality of my thinking on the topic.

First, let me say again that we are training in terms of principle. By that I mean that we are not looking to do or wanting to say, “When this, then that.” I.E. This is not scenario training. Additionally, I’d like to again point out that an officer that got him/herself in this kind of situation already made a heck of a lot of other mistakes. For example, the lack of a use of backup, not placing the subject in a position of disadvantage when interviewing, not doing a visual search on a person that his primary hand down and back behind him, etc. So, this, for me, makes it clear we are not training in a scenario aimed at developing a specific technique (When A, do B), because no one should want to even be in such a situation (ie. everyone should be training to not get in this kind of situation in the first place.). Additionally, it is much easier to not get in this kind of situation (in terms of action and in terms of learning how not to get in this kind of situation) than it is to get out of this situation (in terms of action and in terms of learning how to get out of this kind of situation.

What are we doing then? In essence, we are working on several strategies and principles that are relevant to a person that is under state an agency policies, and that carries the weapons generally used in law enforcement, and that is expected to perform a duty of law enforcement, AND THAT DOES NOT WANT TO DIE/lose while carrying out this duty. What are these strategies and principles? They are the things I’ve mentioned throughout the thread, but taking one in order to make this point would be: Learning how to use your firearm without raising retention while reducing the number of additional attacks that can be raised by your opponent. In essence, the strategies that work toward this principle involve those things that were listed above – those things that tie what is being demonstrated here to Aikido training. The tactics involved with this principle, and these strategies, involves knowing how to establish distance when you don’t have it.

This is what the 21 foot rule is saying, “You don’t have the distance.” When this was learned, a lot of folks early on just tried to have things happen further out. That is when folks started asking for distances greater than 21 feet and when folks started thinking they can shoot suspects when they are closer than 21 feet. We reject this type of thinking. We say, a person does have room, AS LONG AS A PERSON KNOWS HOW TO CREATE ROOM. So, in the video, we move do the 21 foot rule experiment to show how easy it is to shoot someone running at you from that great a distance. Then, we show that using the same strategies and principles, one can do the same thing from interviewing distance. Then, I go on to show how these things can be carried out from a ground-fighting situation – which is even closer than an interviewing distance. Then I show how this principle can also be applied inversely – as when the person is coming at you but without yang manifested (i.e. the palm heel to the chest technique).

So, as you can see, in the last example, I think I’m thinking what you are thinking – initiate action at the slightest hint of intention from the suspect.

But, here’s the thing, for that last tactic to work, one has to be sensitive enough to sense the time to initiate. And, if a person is that sensitive, one is also able to employ the other tactic (e.g. the one done from the interviewing distance) without it necessarily falling into the category of “reaction.” In other words, if one is sensitive (as one should be), one can initiate a circular/spiral yin pattern, pulling them into the next shot, and the next one and the next one and the next one.

Now that might seem like a very small difference, and from one perspective it is. BUT here’s my thing, what I’m totally against:

(these videos were just picked at random – as almost everything demonstrates what I don’t like any videos would have done: a lack of sensitivity (no capacity for initiative – all reaction), the delusion that folks respond to strikes in the middle of fight immediately and with high probability, the lack of awareness concerning follow up attacks and the presence of additional weapons, etc.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIajRXvhJis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-zvz71WnXQ

Well, I’ll stop here – see if we can all chime in on the videos and these points. The short reply to your fine post is this: Yes, reaction – not good, not good at any distance. Initiation always best. But, initiation requires sensitivity, and if one is sensitive, one can initiate even when performing yin tactics.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:23 PM   #73
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Sensei Ledyard,

It is bvious that the fruit did not fall far from the tree in John Clodig's case. The method is quite the same and thus there are, by attrition and by design, few students.

Ths momsnt I saw you move last weekend, i could see the similsrity in depth. Each movement of your body has a direct effect on uke.

Dave's last post suggests that one should not think, if this...then that. I bet you think very little, whether you move yin or yang. In minimizing thought, by focussing on a few basic things, I believe the mind is indeed unfettered.

Where is his center?
where does it wantto go?
here is his falling point.

All the rest is by feel. Even the three questions are simply felt.
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:31 AM   #74
Mato-san
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

It is simple... Aikido does not always work.
I seen that article long ago... it inspired me to take other arts.
Aikido teaches you to move with what you are given. Also if you are are given nothing you can use Aikido, but as a law enforcer Aikido alone will not complete your arsenal... I don`t care what anyone thinks on this.You need ground and strike skills. Period. Full stop.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:34 AM   #75
Mato-san
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

yeah I will put in a sankyo for the police force....sankyo...sankyo...sankyo ...not gonna work everytime

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