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Old 01-16-2008, 05:23 PM   #51
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

I thought I new something about how to create peace as a teenager in the 60's. Then came Altamont.

My Idealism turned to existential otherworldliness. Mystic religions are great recepticles for people who would rather escape the world by finding simple answers to complex problems. Then two groups go to war because their answers are different.

I turned toward political/christian realism. Muddling through complext issues hoping the blowback was less troublesome than the good we attempted to implement.

At least I was engagimg in the real world rather than hiding from it while pronouncing I had simple answers that could ensure the peace.

Nowdays, I watch alot. We are at a crossroads. A major cycle in history. I doubt that this generation has the answer for how to fix things over the next ten years. Yet, we are headed for some very big adjustments.

I like to spend time empowering the new millennial kids to search for the tools they will need. I suspect they are hard wired from birth with the inate ability to find the answers.

This is my current engagement with the world.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:10 PM   #52
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

In 2004, there was a project manager working in Baghdad with Bremer's team. Daily, he braved the city streets under our protection. At night, he would teach Aikido to servicemen and contractors.

His remedies for fixing the world's problems may have been diametrically opposed to my ideas. That did not matter. That he was engaged with the world in real time was what made his Aikido great, and his aiki spirit indominable.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:49 AM   #53
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Re: real world aikido

In the movie circle of iron/silent flute, the blind dude said that a fish saved him once; he ate it. In one of my previous real world, where we honored the dead with the long wall in Washington D.C., a grenade and a bunch of fishes saved my family for a few days. Admittedly, that fishing with grenade wasn't very sport like, but then survival wasn't sport. using a weapon designed to kill in order to save lives, interesting concept don't you think?
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Old 01-17-2008, 05:53 PM   #54
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

My respects to your personal history.
I just missed visiting your country in 1971.

I am sure you have much to teach us about the real world. Perhaps they are lessons we can discuss now. It think they may be timely.

I sense we are headed for some hard times domestically.
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Old 01-19-2008, 09:09 AM   #55
Dathan Camacho
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Re: real world aikido

I'm late to this thread but I'd like to throw out a line of thought regarding "real world"

By modern standards, is Iaido a martial art? I ask this not to attack Iaido or go off on a tangent, but to put the term "real world" in context. Compare the practicality of Iaido today vs 200 years ago in Japan? How often do you have a katana with you?

I kind of think of Aikido along the same lines. Hand-to-hand combat is an outmoded method of dealing with conflict when put in the context of modern technology. Modern science has brought us a whole new range of martial tools (previously mentioned in this thread) for which there is not an applicable Aikido (or TKD or MMA) technique. You're not going to put an F-16 in Nikkyo or apply an arm bar in a drive by shooting.

You might, however, apply an Aikido principle like "get off the line of attack."

For me, Aikido teaches principles of conflict resolution that may, or may not, have indirect application to a very broad range of situations, and direct application to a more limited range of hand-to-hand combative applications, just like any other martial art.

Cross training always makes sense, but you're still only cross training for a narrow subset of "real world" situations - close range, non mechanized combat.
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:08 AM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: real world aikido

Hand to Hand combat actually is NOT an outmoded technology. This rational is what got us in trouble since World War II, IMO.

We really honestly started to believe that we could effect the desired outcome strictly with technology, long range missles, F-16s and the like.

Absolutely, the right tool for the right job. The application of strategy, tatics etc, is affected by technology, however, when it gets down to business and you boil it down to the base elements....it is about people.

This is why you see a return to jiujitsu in the Marine Corps and the Army today. We learned that empty handed and close quarters combat are a key and essential element to influencing the fight.

The next step, IMO, is to take it one step further and to make our soldiers even MORE skillful by instilling within them many of lessons that we learn through arts such as aikido...that is to deal with conflict on an interpersonal level and to gain more skill along the spectrum of force.

We have come a long way, and you are playing in a dangerous area when you go down this path with people whose job is to employ lethal force.

It is a necessary step on the path to evolution of ending violence though.

Same in society.

Empty handing arts, DO or SU, are as relevant today as they were 300 years ago!

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Old 01-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #57
Aikibu
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Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Dathan Camacho wrote: View Post
I'm late to this thread but I'd like to throw out a line of thought regarding "real world"

By modern standards, is Iaido a martial art? I ask this not to attack Iaido or go off on a tangent, but to put the term "real world" in context. Compare the practicality of Iaido today vs 200 years ago in Japan? How often do you have a katana with you?

I kind of think of Aikido along the same lines. Hand-to-hand combat is an outmoded method of dealing with conflict when put in the context of modern technology. Modern science has brought us a whole new range of martial tools (previously mentioned in this thread) for which there is not an applicable Aikido (or TKD or MMA) technique. You're not going to put an F-16 in Nikkyo or apply an arm bar in a drive by shooting.

You might, however, apply an Aikido principle like "get off the line of attack."

For me, Aikido teaches principles of conflict resolution that may, or may not, have indirect application to a very broad range of situations, and direct application to a more limited range of hand-to-hand combative applications, just like any other martial art.

Cross training always makes sense, but you're still only cross training for a narrow subset of "real world" situations - close range, non mechanized combat.
Since I no longer have Access to Indirect Fire Support, CAS, or heavy weapons, I think I'll stick with Aikido...

Besides why should I call for fire in a despute over a parking space...

That peskey reality messes with the best of posts...LOL

Sir Kevin handle the essential need for "hand to hand combat training" in the Service and I know of one Action Guy (An Army Special Forces NCO) Who won a Silver Star in Afganistan for his heroism fighting the Taliban in hand to hand combat encounter where he saved the lives of some of his Team Brothers while seriously injured himself.

I sure other Real Deals and Grunts could cite a few more experiances...

In fact there are hundreds...

So my friend it may be time to re-examine your "theories" in the light of "reality"

And I mean that with all due respect.

William Hazen

PS. There is an excellent thread on Army Combatives over on ebudo.com. take a gander and I am sure you will find it very enlighting.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:10 AM   #58
Dathan Camacho
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Re: real world aikido

My dojo has been conducting combatives training for the local reserve unit here, so my thought process took that interaction into account. The ratio of hand-to-hand training that the military has provided these folks, relative to the volume of training they've received in other areas, proves my point. The hand-to-hand training is a valuable tool, and is particularly essential for policing actions, but it is not the primary focus of their overall preparation because it isn't a real world defense against mechanized warfare... except in movies like the Matrix.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:29 AM   #59
Dathan Camacho
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Re: real world aikido

Also, I should add that I was classifying small arms as a subcomponent of "mechanized" in that it isn't a sword or a knife that requires close range attacks for which Aikido is so effective.

And why would anyone fight over a parking space?

If someone is that upset over a parking space, blend with their mindset and move your car.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:14 PM   #60
Aikibu
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Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Dathan Camacho wrote: View Post
My dojo has been conducting combatives training for the local reserve unit here, so my thought process took that interaction into account. The ratio of hand-to-hand training that the military has provided these folks, relative to the volume of training they've received in other areas, proves my point. The hand-to-hand training is a valuable tool, and is particularly essential for policing actions, but it is not the primary focus of their overall preparation because it isn't a real world defense against mechanized warfare... except in movies like the Matrix.
Again on the surface this post makes allot of sense but to bring it back to your cited reality.

How Many Mechanized Tank Brigades do Al Qwacky and the Insurgents have...

In fact among (now finally) most Military Thinkers concur that any enemy of the United States would be a suicidal fool to try and engage the United States with the latter on that "leval of warefare" (Perhaps the reason The NKPLA does not cross the border?) and that is the reason the D.O.D. is placing huge emphasis on Asymetric Warefare (A lesson I admit they have been rather SLOW to learn and somewhat easily forgotten between "Guerilla Wars.")

On the contrary the New Army Combatives Approach has is one of the most important war fighting tools in our high tech arsenal.

The Martial Way is just a relevent as it was hundreds of years ago.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:24 PM   #61
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Compare the practicality of Iaido today vs 200 years ago in Japan? How often do you have a katana with you?

I kind of think of Aikido along the same lines. Hand-to-hand combat is an outmoded method of dealing with conflict when put in the context of modern technology. Modern science has brought us a whole new range of martial tools (previously mentioned in this thread) for which there is not an applicable Aikido (or TKD or MMA) technique.
Today's military is similar to tactical policing. I have done allot of work on that. So has John Clodig, my aiki teacher. Interestingly, military folks including Marine Corp DT instructors often join our classes when in town over at Parker Linekin's Academy of the Martial Arts or directly with Renshi Clodig.

Here is a real-world example. Suppose you are tethered to your M-4 and you turn a corner. As soon as you do, the back guy is pointed in and has the drop on you. You are in arm's reach.

Bad idea to trade bullets. You will be a few behind. Best to go hands free and grapple his weapon out of his hands. There are many techniques based of the Jo and "No Sword" systems that make this work with efficient leverage.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:52 PM   #62
Aikibu
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Re: real world aikido

Sorry aobut the spellwings and graamerz in postz folks...

Burning both sides of the candle with a blow torch lately...

William Hazen
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:12 PM   #63
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Re: real world aikido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjS7m3gzEaE

This should give you a good perspective of the realities of fighting in today's environment and how we are preparing soldiers and marines today.

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Old 01-19-2008, 04:04 PM   #64
Dathan Camacho
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Re: real world aikido

That is interesting perhaps I'm completely misinformed. Any thoughts on why the unit that our dojo is working with is about to get deployed but hasn't had any hand-to-hand combatives training in 8 years? I should point out that I don't know what this unit does, they could be an IT unit for all I know. I'm wondering if they exaggerated a bit to make us feel better about the value of the training we provided. Oh well.
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:44 PM   #65
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

Quote:
This should give you a good perspective of the realities of fighting in today's environment and how we are preparing soldiers and marines today.
Kevin,

Great set of videos. Thanks for the resource.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:22 PM   #66
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: real world aikido

Dathan,

No your experiences were "normal". Combatives training is realitively new (last 5 years), In the last two years Army Reg 350-1 (Training) was changed to put an emphasis on Combatives as well as a few other things.

If you asked how many soldiers you were training have been exposed to combatives, you would have found that the ones that have been to basic training, basic NCO training or basic officer training (BOLC) have been exposed with about 1 weeks worth of the training. Sr NCOs and Officers (Leadership) has not. Who plans the training schedules???

Anyway, it is slowly becoming more pervasive as we get soldiers more comfortable with the training, and get them to adopt the paradigm.

My last class, I had about 50% of the soldiers I trained had at least 40 hours of it under their belt, that is a huge improvement.

Sr Officers like myself and SR NCOs that are training in the system, and are believers are trying to do our best to expose soldiers and to get leaders to integrate it into their training.

Yes, you will find it more in infantry units, vice rear echelon units....but that is not always the case. My combat camera team in Germany was better trained than my infantry Battalion. (they had more time to devote to it).

Anyway, you are also correct, it is not always the first and highest priority for training with all the stuff we have to do to prepare for war.

One of the paradiqms we are trying to adopt is to approach it from a integrated training strategy...that is, it is supportive in nature to other training, and integrated...not trained separately.

The problem with this is that we must have all soldiers (at least a majority) with a common base and understanding, hence the huge upfront investment in basic combatives training that we are going through in the last several years.

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Old 01-19-2008, 06:58 PM   #67
Chris Parkerson
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Re: real world aikido

Kevin,

Has the Army put together a completed system with evolutions and ranking like the Marine Corps has?
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:16 PM   #68
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: real world aikido

Yes and no. We have a formalized curriculum and POIs for "instructors", level I through IV. It is a pretty comprehensive program. However, no ranking etc like the Marine Corps.

There are several advocates out there that would like to adopt a similar system, with some differences from the Marine Corps, however, I think that is a way off.

There is also a push outside the army to set up an association/system that would provide structure and formalization for soldiers. The intent is to provide organization to enable soldiers to find competent and qualified instruction, avoiding those "one night wonders" that have trained "100's of soldiers, and invented the system that the Navy Seals are using today".

It would also provide structure, keep the cost low, avoid organizational politics, and improve the quality of training.

This is kind of what the Air Force did when they set up the Judo association years ago.

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