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Old 02-26-2008, 08:03 AM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

In line with the whole discussion, let me re-post some of the comments by Minoru Inaba about ki and aiki. It's a very good and important interview and it's found at:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=107

First a quick comment in the interview about what should be obvious; this form if "ki" power is used throughout Japanese martial, including koryu like KSR:

Quote:
How do you separate or unify the technique of Kashima Shin-ryu and aikido?

For each art I teach the basic form. But I always keep flexibility in mind and am not trapped by the form, while at the same time I do not neglect technique.

In my limited experience, I have felt that while teaching the technique, the important point is self-control, calming the mind, and "ki" energy.
Then a comment/discussion about ki and aiki:

Quote:
How can you put forth offensive power? The first thing you have to do is to focus the power in your center. Offensive power will naturally flow if you focus your power in the center. That is forceful power (iryoku). It is a condition of focused energy that becomes center energy. In budo, people use the terms "bui" or "iryoku", don't they? Most important in martial arts is "iwoharu," showing this powerfully focused energy. It's not good to pretend that you have energy (karaibari). Try to use the energy in the lower abdomen. You can call this energy focused "ki" energy. If you don't have center energy, you are bluffing. Really, you have to develop this energy. The energy will flow naturally if you can focus it in the lower abdomen. If you understand this point, you will understand how to develop your body and mind and how you should train.

If you forget this essential point, you'll think only about winning, and you won't have the power to keep centered. This power won't be released and you will be destroyed.

You do exercises to straighten up your back muscles and relax your shoulders. Drop your focus to your lower abdomen. If you do that, you'll find your center point and you will produce center energy. If your center is not developed, you won't have ki energy available to project through your fingers.

If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.

Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. You have to think about two things, gathering and filling up the power, and then moving the power to where the opponent will attack. Also if you have a weapon, you have to project energy through the weapon. If you understand this point, you'll know how to train and what you need to develop. At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki."
Then a further re-statement about aiki itself in relation to the technique/waza that is jujutsu (althoug of course the waza is also done with the ki-power imbued in Nage):

Quote:
"What is Aiki Technique?"
Make the Opponent's Power Zero


When power meets power on the battlefield and you think about what aiki technique is, how can we overcome the opponent's power and make it zero? I think this is the point of aiki technique. Make the opponent's attack zero; take away the opponent's way to attack again, and overcome the opponent's fighting spirit. These points are important when you think about "jujutsu." Daito-ryu uses the term aikijujutsu. Aikijujutsu is the correct expression. Initially, aiki neutralizes the opponent's attack; then jujutsu is used to remove the means to attack thus also defeating the opponent's fighting spirit. That's why they say "aikijujutsu." If the technique reaches a high-level, these two elements will occur at the same time. When the opponent attacks, he will be immediately thrown. That's the level of an expert.

Originally jujutsu had both elements. If you look at "aiki" and "jujutsu" and you want to polish aiki technique, the point is that you receive several types of attacks and, at the same time, you make the opponent's power zero. If you practice only one pattern of attack, then you lose the ability to apply techniques in different ways and they will become mere form. You must be able to respond to several types of attack. The crash of sumo, the punch of karate, and even the contact in rugby and soccer can be counted as types of attacks. A thrust from a small knife is the same. You have to respond. With each passing generation, the way to attack changes.
These are the endpoints that I wanted the workshop participants to have an insight into and a few starting abilities in that direction.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:05 AM   #152
Robert Wolfe
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

A day or two ago, Mike asked for some comments from those who participated in the seminar at Itten Dojo, particularly with regard to experiences in aikido practices since the seminar.

Let me start by mentioning that I had real concerns prior to the seminar. After reading the frequent comments in various threads very explicitly stating that acquisition of internal skills requires extensive, daily solo practice outside of regular training, I figured I would be pretty well screwed to begin with. Most weekdays, I have barely an hour between the office and the dojo, just enough time to get home, grab a bowl of cereal and my gear, and head out the door. I get home late and get up early the next day to start the cycle again, never getting anywhere near eight hours sleep. I'm already maxed-out.

I was also very concerned to read statements that gaining these skills demands, essentially, a total rewiring of all movement patterns, extending even to routine activities. I was thinking, "Okay, it's bad enough if there's going to need to be an ‘alien' movement pattern imposed on my aikido; what's going to be the effect on the koryu iaido we also practice?"

Happily, both concerns proved to be exaggerated.

Absolutely — internal skill acquisition demands daily, solo practice. But that doesn't have to mean hours of specialized exercises. From what I can see, at least at this beginning level, sufficient daily practice of specialized exercises is needed to recognize and internalize the basic movement patterns, sense of forces, and power generation, but the really key requirement appears to me to be to start trying to apply the skills in all daily activities, right from the beginning. In that way, rather than getting a discrete fifteen minutes, or an hour, of specialized exercises, you're getting additional minutes of conscious patterning and application, minutes that can add up to hours over the course of a day. Make everything training.

I was also relieved to discover that many of the most fundamental movement patterns in these internal skills aren't so alien after all. Sure, there are some esoteric aspects and applications of internal skills — some of which were witnessed at the seminar by those paying close attention — but the basics appear to be primarily mechanical and mental, completely understandable, and are in many cases things fairly common to a wide variety of arts. I've seen, and been instructed in, many pieces of the internal skills, in arts ranging from karate to aikijujutsu, to kenjutsu. However (and it's a BIG "however"), I only ever received disjointed pieces of the puzzle, never a comprehensive picture, and as I came to recognize at the seminar it only takes one missing piece to queer the deal with respect to active application of the skills.

There's no question that integrating internal skills requires an "extreme makeover," but the good news is that most students of traditional arts with any significant length of training will recognize things they've done in bits and pieces and have a good basis on which to start their physical reprogramming. Integrating the movement patterns and power generation is not going to be quick, and it's not going to be easy, but getting started in training the internal skills should not be seen as an overwhelming challenge.

More good news can be found in the fact results are apparent immediately. Obviously, anyone still trying to figure out which foot goes where in basic aikido techniques isn't going to see a lot of benefit from adding the requirement to focus on subtle alignments, weighting, breathing, imagery, sequencing, and force paths, but anyone with reasonable body skills and coordination (i.e., the ability to move intentionally) will see appreciable improvement in the effectiveness of techniques, right out of the box.

It's simply not the case that months or years of intense, solo practice need be invested prior to seeing any tangible results. I'm sure that decades of practice are required for high-level applications of internal skills, but I'm very encouraged and much more likely to make such an investment knowing I've got a better ikkyo today than three weeks ago, the consequence of only utterly superficial exposure to a concise and comprehensive explication of the basics of internal skills. It may not be in high definition, but I've gotten at least a peek at the bigger picture.

My recommendation is to investigate the internal skills, with an instructor who is willing to present a thorough grounding in the basics, in the context of the art in which you're primarily training. You may decide you already do all this stuff, or are at least doing enough to be satisfied, or you may have opened to you a far wider range of possibilities for your practice than you ever imagined.

And, best of all, adding this element of training isn't going to screw up your iaido.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:00 AM   #153
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Robert Wolfe wrote: View Post
My recommendation is to investigate the internal skills, with an instructor who is willing to present a thorough grounding in the basics, in the context of the art in which you're primarily training. You may decide you already do all this stuff, or are at least doing enough to be satisfied, or you may have opened to you a far wider range of possibilities for your practice than you ever imagined.
Hi Bob:

At the moment, there is no complete expert available to westerners who "knows all the stuff" and who is teaching how to do things. The amount of knowledge and the method of presentation vary, but you put your finger on it with the idea of "basics". No matter how good some instructor thinks they are (and maybe some of them have up into "moderate" range on some areas), my opinion is that aside from "basics", that's about all anyone can expect to get at present. The skills are ancient, but this generation of instructors is a very small pool and the upper level of skills is limited. Yeah, I'm an iconoclast.

So that being said, I'd agree with all that you said and I'd caution about anyone assuming that they "already do this stuff", even to a small degree. Over the many years of many time-wasting mistakes, I've learned that the safest approach to training is to constantly have the thought in mind, "What am I doing wrong?". Anyone who dismisses that analysis with a "well, I've already got part of it, so I don't need to concentrate so hard" is suicidal, IMO.

Anyone can learn weak approximations of the static or near-static starts of ki/kokyu usage in reasonably short order. Learning to actually do all these things while moving, and I mean true movement from the center, takes a lot of time and effort. The actual full-blown ability to do even the static level of the demonstration ki/kokyu takes longer than it first appears because the training of the body causes changes that a beginner has no concept of, at first.

I.e., I'm not trying to throw water on anyone, but I'm really trying to save people some wasted time and effort by pointing out (maybe too many times) that it's harder than it looks to get it right.

I will say that I was extremely encouraged, if not outright impressed, but the level of ability and focus I saw by some of the Aikidoists at the workshop. Whoever your student was who assisted me in the preliminary discussion on "unbendable" arm... he was bulletproof throughout the demo. I was impressed. At that rate of acquisition, I expect great things.... but I'll never compliment him needlessly because the last thing I want to do is potentially slow down his efforts by telling him "that was perfect!". Because there's further that he can go.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-27-2008 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:50 AM   #154
Timothy WK
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Robert Wolfe wrote:
I was also relieved to discover that many of the most fundamental movement patterns in these internal skills aren't so alien after all... [the basics] are in many cases things fairly common to a wide variety of arts.
I do think that traditional marital arts training (along with certain other activities) can help "prime" individuals for internal training. I know a few light bulbs lit up in my own head when I was shown how to *practically* apply those over-used platitudes that I've been hearing for years.

But like Mike said, you do have to be careful about assuming you know how something is done. I went from "I don't know how to do this...", to "oh, now I see how its done...", to "nope, I have NO friggin' clue how that's done."

I think the most important thing you can learn to get yourself ready for internal training is simply the ability to listen to your body. Which muscles are engaging or not engaging? Are you---correction: Where are you holding tension? Where's your balance? Can you feel your body alignment without looking? Can you feel all the subtle movements in your body when you breath? Etc.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 02-27-2008, 10:05 AM   #155
HL1978
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I think everyone misses this and why they think they "already do this" when they see some of the various exercises.

Sure it might look familiar, but there is a different intent.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:26 AM   #156
Timothy WK
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Sure it might look familiar, but there is a different intent.
YES. The first time this was evident to me was when some friends of mine who practice Chen Tai Chi were showing me their basic stance. I was struck by how they "tucked" their tailbones, similar to what I did when I was studying karate. But in karate, I was told to pull the pelvis up with the abs. But my friends explained that they were relaxing the lower back downwards.

Looked almost the same, but totally different feeling.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 02-27-2008, 10:38 AM   #157
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
YES. The first time this was evident to me was when some friends of mine who practice Chen Tai Chi were showing me their basic stance. I was struck by how they "tucked" their tailbones, similar to what I did when I was studying karate. But in karate, I was told to pull the pelvis up with the abs. But my friends explained that they were relaxing the lower back downwards.

Looked almost the same, but totally different feeling.
Well, this is a problem with going to so-and-so and being shown such-and-such about a certain martial art and then taking their word for it. Unfortunately, the Chen-style does not tuck the tailbone. Yes, the lower back is relaxed, but the tailbone is not tucked.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:40 AM   #158
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

This is one of the points I continually have problems with. Relaxing the lower back and extending the spine does not require you to "tuck". But it is easy to get mislead with this.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:46 AM   #159
Timothy WK
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Chen-style does not tuck the tailbone.
That's not what I meant to imply, though that was how I perceived it at the time. At the time I was unfamiliar with the language they were using to describe what they were doing, so I used my karate experience as a reference point. And I haven't seen them in a while, so I'm not sure if that's what were actually doing, or if it was just my perception.

Sorry for any confusion.

Last edited by Timothy WK : 02-27-2008 at 10:58 AM.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 02-28-2008, 07:13 AM   #160
Robert Wolfe
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

The two biggest surprises for me in the seminar were how many times something I'd been shown previously came close (in apparent form) to things Mike demonstrated, in some cases had been demonstrated and described with literally identical language, but missed completely in terms of the effects generated (or only foreshadowed in a very limited way what might be possible), and how many times in the seminar we were able to experience at least an initial measure of the effects we were looking for. Now, sure, the experience was within an artfully set up and carefully controlled, learning environment (both factors a measure of just how much thought and work Mike put into preparations for the seminar). And certainly there's an immense difference between "success" under highly controlled circumstances and being able to do anything similar under more dynamic or freestyle — let alone combative — conditions.

Nevertheless, it was very encouraging to discover that what we learned in the seminar could make a difference in our practice, right away. Something as "simple" and purely mechanical as into which area of my foot I direct my weight makes a difference. So what if something like that's the most rudimentary precursor to actual internal skills? It's effective, it's simple enough that beginners can comprehend and integrate the concept to technique and, quite frankly, that one tidbit alone would have for me been worth the price of admission.

And there was so much more.

I will say most definitely that the past five years of our training guided by Amdur Sensei, with his particular focus on vectors of movement and his plan that our training eventually move into investigation of internal skills based on that foundation, have provided a distinct advantage in starting this study. But I think anyone with a creditable background in traditional arts is going to see things on exposure to internal skills provoking a response of, "Oh!" Not in the sense of, "Oh, now I know exactly all about that!" but rather along the lines of, "Oh, so that's what that was about!" It's a starting point.

Our dojo tends to operate on the principle of, "More is better, and too much is not enough." We're never satisfied. So I'm interested if something adds even so little as a consistent 5% improvement in the effectiveness of a technique. From a going-in position of moderate skepticism, I'm more than willing now to concede that acquisition and incorporation of internal skills has the potential to increase the effectiveness of techniques very substantially, perhaps hugely beyond a happy 5%, to a degree probably limited only by the dedication of the student over an extended period of time and his access to quality, knowledgeable instruction ("close" clearly doesn't count in this area of study).

Based on more than 30 years exposure to a fairly wide segment of martial arts in the United States, I think there's only a very small percentage chance that most of the people saying "We already have that" with respect to internal skills really have anything at all to speak of. And — in consequence of that attitude — there's virtually a 100% chance they're never going to get it. But, again, so what? People train for a lot of difference reasons, and if whatever they have is good enough for them at the moment, great. Researchers like Mike are offering an avenue of study and training that has the potential to transform one's practice, even one's physical well being.

I'm grateful for the opportunity.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:47 AM   #161
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Robert Wolfe wrote: View Post
Based on more than 30 years exposure to a fairly wide segment of martial arts in the United States, I think there's only a very small percentage chance that most of the people saying "We already have that" with respect to internal skills really have anything at all to speak of. And — in consequence of that attitude — there's virtually a 100% chance they're never going to get it. But, again, so what? People train for a lot of difference reasons, and if whatever they have is good enough for them at the moment, great. Researchers like Mike are offering an avenue of study and training that has the potential to transform one's practice, even one's physical well being.
Hi Bob:

Well, "researcher" is probably a good term to apply to me because it indicates that I am indeed (and admittedly) outside of an formal affiliations with any person or style. And I try to stay that way, by choice. These skills and methods are also the basis for many qigongs, for sho-do, for iaido, for the tea ceremony, and so on, when they're done correctly. A lot of people don't realize all of that. But my interest is more along the path of "what's the full range of these skills for health and strength?", so while I enjoy some interest in the martial aspects, I'm too old to ever go in that direction again.

I'm quite happy to see people grab things and run and for me to simply be an information depot of sorts. Other than that, I'm out of it and curious to see what schools like yours wind up with in a few years. Probably, it's going to be more the school I wish I had been able to find when I was doing Aikido, complete with ki skills and practicality.

My suggestion would be to give it a while in order to get some initial practice of skills behind you and then begin to do events with other schools and Aikidoists (like Jim Sorrentino's) who are also working on these things (and who I think will also become very good). You guys are wonderfully situated geographically and people should make it a point to drop by and see what you're teaching and practicing. I'm actually looking forward to some good things happening and I'd like to see the results sometime.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:49 AM   #162
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Okay, I got a friendly quiz for everyone that attended Sigman's workshop (you lucky dogs...).

How does one establish a groundpath to neutralize an incoming push when there is no back leg? So if someone was in a parallel horse stance and someone pushed them at 90 degrees on their chest, how would one ground that?

Hopefully, Mr Mead doesn't read this thread and tell us that it is impossible because of the force vectors or the earth's rotation or something (kidding!).

But seriously, any takers???

Thanks

-Blake
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:16 AM   #163
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike has already talked about that in different threads. If you start using the back leg, then you can move the front leg parallel, and then source the connection from there. Or probably share the load between the two.

The push on the chest is hard though...regardless. One thing that seems to help me is the imagery Dan provided about seeing their push as a rope, and pulling the rope down into your body and feeding it to the ground. I'm pretty lousy at this overall though...ask again in a year or so

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:07 PM   #164
Tom H.
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
How does one establish a groundpath to neutralize an incoming push when there is no back leg? So if someone was in a parallel horse stance and someone pushed them at 90 degrees on their chest, how would one ground that?
I think it's the same thing, just a little bit more difficult. Your intention sends the incoming push straight to the ground; who cares what shape your body is in (Easy to say and hard to do).

Caveat: I wasn't at the workshop.

Try a progression like this:
* Start in 50/50 weighted hanmi
* Receive a push through an extended arm.
* Check to make sure you're relaxed and grounding.
* Take your arm out of the equation and receive the push directly on your chest. Make sure it's going to the ground.
* Shift your weight over your back foot. Keep receiving to ground.
* Lift your front foot off the ground. Keep receiving to ground.
* Set down your front foot parallel to the weighted back foot. Keep receiving to ground.
* You are now receiving a push in a parallel stance.

The idea is to find a progression of baby steps. Try this sequence or make up your own. Identify where you fail. Try to move the point of failure back; maybe it's when you shift your weight, or maybe you fail while lifting your foot because you can't lift without disturbing your spine. Those are examples. Keeping the force gentle will help isolate the mind control ("intent") component of the failure. Think of it as something akin to a mental block; you already know how to ground, just in limited circumstances.

Spend a couple hours working on this with a partner to see how far you can take it. Revisit again in a week or two. See how much force you can receive before you fail. See if you can push that limit back as well.

I think that once you get far enough along your body will kind of realize that it can remain connected (grounding can be a decent test of that connection) somewhat irrespective of where your limbs, your weight, and the incoming force are.

Like Ron says, particular imagery may help muster the proper intent. "Your imagine must be full," as one Chinese guy puts it.

Last edited by Tom H. : 02-28-2008 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:16 PM   #165
MM
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Okay, I got a friendly quiz for everyone that attended Sigman's workshop (you lucky dogs...).

How does one establish a groundpath to neutralize an incoming push when there is no back leg? So if someone was in a parallel horse stance and someone pushed them at 90 degrees on their chest, how would one ground that?

Hopefully, Mr Mead doesn't read this thread and tell us that it is impossible because of the force vectors or the earth's rotation or something (kidding!).

But seriously, any takers???

Thanks

-Blake
From the seminar:

Mike showed how to stand in a sort of hanmi, right leg forward and right arm forward. So, uke pushed on the right hand. You grounded all of the force into the back left leg/foot/ground. Then Mike showed that if all the force is there, you can actually move your front leg. And then Mike moved his front leg backwards until he was standing with feet side by side, shoulder width apart.

Of course, there's also Ueshiba's version:
Use of the te-gatana [hand-sword] (or fist): in order to deliver a devastating blow to an enemy, one must be enlightened to the principles of heaven and earth; one's mind and body must be linked to the divine, and there must be a perfect balance between the manifest and hidden, water and fire. Heaven, earth, and man must blend together as a single unified force—in this case a te-gatana—and one must move in harmony with the cosmos propelled by the divine; heat and light should radiate from your entire body.

Now, if you think of heaven and earth as places where you are focusing your intent, it becomes a bit clearer.

As Mike stated, you are grounding the force coming in.
That's earth.

So, what's heaven? As those keeping up with these threads, you'll note that people talk about the head being pulled up by a string, stretching the spine upwards.
That's heaven.

enlightened to the principles of heaven and earth means understanding how to keep your intent going in both directions.

your intent to heaven, your grounding to earth must all blend within your body. "Heaven, earth, and man must blend together as a single unified force"

heat and light radiating means that when you do this stuff right, you start building up heat within and sweating your butt off.

Or so my theory goes.

Mark
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:40 PM   #166
Budd
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I'll just revisit my earlier words (which I think I've been fairly consistent on) . . . go see what people are doing . . . never assume you know much of anything. Make friends where you can.

Best,
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:13 PM   #167
Marc Abrams
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I wish that I could have made that seminar....

My 1-cent suggestion:

Feet parallel and shoulder width apart. Big toes should line up with the shoulder joints. The focus is to have the weight of the body centered in the mid-foot (ideally, where the ankle bones attach to the feet). Pretend as though you were going to sit back into a chair so that your hips relax towards your rear, leaving a light bend in your knees. Your shoulders should be entirely relaxed. Your spine should be naturally aligned so that the spine draws an imaginary line into the ground, in line with where the center of your weight is (where the ankle bone meets the foot). Your head should be held so that the spine maintains a natural alignment (neither tilted back or down). A push in your chest from this position should be grounded-out. At least that is what I experience when I can actually line it up properly.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-28-2008, 01:43 PM   #168
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

But why does it work? What is the physics part of it? The ground at your feet is the fulcrum. You are the lever. He provides the force against the lever. What can you do with your mind and body to artificially arrange a force that counters (comes in under) Uke's incoming force?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-28-2008, 02:08 PM   #169
Marc Abrams
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike:

That is an excellent question that I am too new to fully understand. If I think about your question from how I experience the force (when I am actually aligned properly), I would say that in my mind, I am part of and connected to the ground and the person is simply pushing directly into the fulcrum point.

Any wisdom on your part would be greatly appreciated in helping me conceptualize why it actually works!

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-28-2008, 03:24 PM   #170
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But why does it work? What is the physics part of it? The ground at your feet is the fulcrum. You are the lever. He provides the force against the lever. What can you do with your mind and body to artificially arrange a force that counters (comes in under) Uke's incoming force?

Best.

Mike Sigman
Blasted physics!! But me thinks Sigman gave us all a hint : "comes in under uke's force"

So, I am gonna make a wild guess, and if I am way off, I promise to sit in a corner for the rest of the day and talk to no-one...

In Sigman's videos, he talks about using a stick to connect one's dantien (hara) with the incoming force. So what if one uses that idea to come under uke's chest push so that the resultant force vector (Fx + Fy) is above you. Use the back bow to raise the force.

-Blake
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:43 PM   #171
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
gave us all a hint : "comes in under uke's force"
Sure. If your responding force is based on the ground and it comes up under the incoming force from Uke, then Uke is essentially pushing himself away. He is "floating". But to do that, you have to relax the upper-body and use the mind to rig the upcoming force.

If you want to fake it, you stick one foot behind you and use it as a "brace". If you want to do it with "ki", as Tohei, Ueshiba, and others have shown, then you will have to train the skill. It helps to have someone show you how and work with you on it. Particularly if you're going to really make it hard on yourself by standing with feet parallel or try to do it standing on one leg. But those are good ways to train... by pushing your limits.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:04 PM   #172
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Sure. If your responding force is based on the ground and it comes up under the incoming force from Uke, then Uke is essentially pushing himself away. He is "floating". But to do that, you have to relax the upper-body and use the mind to rig the upcoming force.

If you want to fake it, you stick one foot behind you and use it as a "brace". If you want to do it with "ki", as Tohei, Ueshiba, and others have shown, then you will have to train the skill. It helps to have someone show you how and work with you on it. Particularly if you're going to really make it hard on yourself by standing with feet parallel or try to do it standing on one leg. But those are good ways to train... by pushing your limits.

Best.

Mike
Sooo, was I way off and have to sit in the corner now...?

I seem to remember Chen Xiaowang performing the one leg thing but Im not sure if he was using the same ideas and mechanics.

Ah, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

Soo, if we can deal with a head on push with no "back leg", academically at least, can we do the same thing with a strike?

Somewhat on a sidenote: an iron vest qigong that I do, I was told that the movements increase the strength and thickness of the fascia, and the standing postures teach one to relax into the ground. So in theory, when one is hit with a strike, the fascia dispurse the force while your relaxed structure grounds the rest of the force. Is this similar to what we are talking about?

Where is Harden and Sigman when you need them...

-Blake
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:11 PM   #173
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I told you the exact truth, Blake. I told you more than you need to know in order to figure it out. The idea of "steal this technique" implicitly contains the idea that you have to be smart enough to understand it before you can steal it. I have great faith in you, Blake.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:34 AM   #174
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
How does one establish a groundpath to neutralize an incoming push when there is no back leg? So if someone was in a parallel horse stance and someone pushed them at 90 degrees on their chest, how would one ground that?
I saw this exact trick performed on the National Geographic Channel in a documentary about the building of Chartres Cathedral.
The architect used something that is called flying buttress.
So it is pure science.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:35 AM   #175
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike,

When does your European tour starts?
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