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Old 02-25-2008, 03:38 PM   #126
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Ah, so you're not gonna dish, even after promulgating that there should be open and free discussions of such things on these forums? Tsk. How disappointing!

Now you're saying that you'd hesitate to do so because "even with a pretty-much wide-open discussion on how these things work, there are still many factors that prevent people from acquiring a lot of useable information just by reading it," which is pretty much what I said several posts ago.

But you are, of course, happy to take whatever kernels of goodness might be dropped in open discussion -- so you'll keep encouraging others to dish while you take notes. But then, you've always been pretty open about stating that you're looking for information wherever you can get it; you never said you'd be willing to give in kind.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:51 PM   #127
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Ah, so you're not gonna dish, even after promulgating that there should be open and free discussions of such things on these forums? Tsk. How disappointing!
I've already "dished", Cady. It's in the archives. Very explicative how-to's and theory. And let's not spin it... I've already said very clearly "basics".
Quote:
Now you're saying that you'd hesitate to do so because "even with a pretty-much wide-open discussion on how these things work, there are still many factors that prevent people from acquiring a lot of useable information just by reading it," which is pretty much what I said several posts ago.
In which case, you should quit with the elitist stuff and agree that open discussions of basics are a good thing.
Quote:
But you are, of course, happy to take whatever kernels of goodness might be dropped in open discussion -- so you'll keep encouraging others to dish while you take notes. But then, you've always been pretty open about stating that you're looking for information wherever you can get it; you never said you'd be willing to give in kind.
What are you saying, Cady? The kind of stuff I've gotten from the Aikido forums is pointers to historical methods and perspectives (and I've said that before) on ki/kokyu development. Certainly you've never dropped any actually functional "kernals" and Dan has simply dropped out of sight everytime things have gotten specific or an error of his is pointed out. Once again, I think your perspective of what and how much you know is somewhat skewed. I'm not the one trying to get information through the back-channels on QiJin discussions... Dan is.

Best,

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:54 PM   #128
Haowen Chan
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

In the interest of open discussion I'd point out what Mike's already dished right here on Aikiweb. You can find the info if you have the mind-numbing patience to sort through pages of ridiculous flames and collect the nuggets like I tried to do earlier in my search for info...

But here's an incomplete listing of some stuff. Incomplete since I didn't actually trawl through all the archives, just about a year or so of posts... given that Mike has been active for decades there's potentially a lot of useful info already floating around for hunters and gatherers.

Big thanks to Tim Fong's martial movement wiki which is another great open repository of knowledge.

Martial Movement Wiki.

Also refer to Mike's articles on Aikido Journal and his tutorial written for Internal Strength magazine which are still online somewhere, they're easily googled.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 02-25-2008 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:10 PM   #129
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike, I've already given my take on why discussion of such are not likely to be fruitful, and why it's not wise to be so open in public. It's not about being "elitist," it's about not being so free with knowledge in places where you can't monitor or control where it's going or how it will be used, or even know if it's being understood for what it is. That's just plain good sense.

It's very nice that what you consider to be important, detailed information is already available and archived here and open for discussion. If people pull it up and ask you questions here about how they're training it according to your explicit instruction, and could you give them some coaching, then great. Even so, you'd probably have to say that they'd be better off coming and training with you to actually learn how to do any of it.

Discussion can be fun and makes for something different to do when most folks should be working, but again, it's of limited use and value unless you already have a common point of reference and experience to relate to. It's like those kata books you can buy in any martial arts store. The photos tell you nothing if you have never done the kata; they only hint that something is being done.
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:13 PM   #130
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's in the archives.
Do you (or does anyone) have a collection of links to the various tidbits buried in the archives? Not just your stuff--Rob John, for example, has some excellent material buried around here somewhere. Then again, if someone isn't willing to put in the hours necessary to sort through all the aikiweb archives, are they really hard-core enough? :-)

(EDIT: Thank you, Haowen Chan.)

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... QiJin discussions...
It almost pisses me off that someone is willing to join your closed forum and take information from that forum, against the guidelines to which that person agreed, and pass that information on to someone outside that space who has not agreed to those guidelines and is not a member of that forum.

Actually, it almost pisses me off because: I will not even log on to QiJin (it's been maybe a year) in order to avoid the situation where I have useful information which I am bound to withhold from people who could use it (either from Dan to QiJin or vice versa). I don't want even the appearance of impropriety. And, I guess, someone else doesn't have that compunction. Arrg. :-|

Last edited by Tom H. : 02-25-2008 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:18 PM   #131
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Getting into the hands of the wrong people? What would they do with it? Heck, I have been end to this stuff for like 15 years now, and I don't know what to do with it.

Somehow I think the "wrong people" tend to self select themselves out of the process as the payoff simply isn't there for what they would want to do with it!

Maybe someone could provide some examples of what kind of things the "wrong people" would do with these internal skills, it would be helpful.

I think this could be done without giving away any trade secrets.

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Old 02-25-2008, 04:23 PM   #132
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Mike, I've already given my take on why discussion of such are not likely to be fruitful, and why it's not wise to be so open in public. It's not about being "elitist," it's about not being so free with knowledge in places where you can't monitor or control where it's going or how it will be used, or even know if it's being understood for what it is. That's just plain good sense.
Perhaps your perspective about "koryu secrets" colors your perspective, Cady. I think your threshold of "this should be secret" is set a lot lower than mine. I think this basic information should be more available in Aikido. So did Tohei, BTW. Regardless, the core of the art is being witheld from the art in general, at the moment, and that doesn't work for me. It cost me years of my life trying to hunt this stuff down in the Aikido corpus and I finally had to go out and look for training (as did Tohei and others). My opinion is that it should be available more easily to the Aikido community.
Quote:
It's very nice that what you consider to be important, detailed information is already available and archived here and open for discussion. If people pull it up and ask you questions here about how they're training it according to your explicit instruction, and could you give them some coaching, then great. Even so, you'd probably have to say that they'd be better off coming and training with you to actually learn how to do any of it.
Well, I'm not very anxious to show what I know to a lot of people, but that's because I'm lazy, I don't have a "school" of any sort, and I don't do martial-arts or seminars for any appreciable part of my income... and I value my free time. Regardless, I think it's a necessary step for information to be available to the people that want it, particularly to the up and coming yudanshakai.
Quote:
Discussion can be fun and makes for something different to do when most folks should be working, but again, it's of limited use and value unless you already have a common point of reference and experience to relate to. It's like those kata books you can buy in any martial arts store. The photos tell you nothing if you have never done the kata; they only hint that something is being done.
First you think the information is too valuable to allow out in public and now you sour-grapes it?

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:24 PM   #133
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

A few years ago when I first got stationed in Germany, a couple of my fellow officers knew that I studied aikido. They were interested in learning. So I said "yes" I'd work with them on the basics.

Ever try and teach aikido with people when you have no one else that has even seen it or done it.

It is like trying to explain an duck billed platypus without the aid of pictures or pen and paper!

I stopped as it was not going very well at all!

I found the same with BJJ with beginners. You can't move on to teaching open guard, x guard etc, until they understand the basics AND have developed the ability to use core muscles and MOVE on the ground properly.

I think the same goes with this stuff. Not that you need to withhold information, but what are you going to do with it, if you don't have the base or have developed physically to do the stuff!

Those that think that it is, or should be some big secret are missing the point I think.

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Old 02-25-2008, 04:42 PM   #134
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Not "secret," Mike. Just valued.
If you value something, you don't broadcast it into the wind like grass seed, without knowing where it's going to land.

If we were talking daughters, would you want yours "giving it away" to every joe, because every man deserves to enjoy her womanly charms? Wouldn't you be sitting by the front door with the shotgun?

I'll have fun perusing the archives this weekend, but I don't expect to see anything earth-shaking. Detailed explorations of the deeper applications of very basic things you might offer ain't gonna see the light of day here (or find their way out of your QiJin site, if they ever see the light of day even there). And it's perfectly understandable why that is.
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:43 PM   #135
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Maybe someone could provide some examples of what kind of things the "wrong people" would do with these internal skills, it would be helpful.

I think this could be done without giving away any trade secrets.
Personally, the main thing I see that can happen "in the wrong hands" is that the wrong-hands people will try to parlay the knowledge into power. I've seen it happen many times in the past and, IMO, it's the greatest threat to the general martial-arts practitioner. The questionable people who get a few bits and pieces of this stuff tend to start lording it over other people and attracting students based on it. That's their right, of course, so I don't begrudge it... I simply try to offset them where I can by showing what little I know to other people so that a balance develops.

And don't get me wrong. From my perspective, I'm slogging through this stuff and I've spent 30 slow years collecting information and working my way through it, sometimes right and sometimes wrong, because I know it's the core of Asian martial arts. There is enough supporting literature, etc., to easily assert that part of it. So I'm an amateur. I've met some real professionals and I'm not silly enough to present myself as an expert because I know the story wouldn't fly with a real expert and I'm not into impressing beginners. The problem is that as an amateur I keep running into "seasoned instructors" that don't have any skills in these basics, so there's a disconnect. I understand the disconnect and I want to work within the system to help fix it, but I don't want to put up with a lot of political infighting in the process.

But in terms of turning some "Ki Terrorist" loose on the population, I don't think it's a worry (well, there's always the thought of Cady running amuck on the MTA, I guess).

Notice how that even after Tohei started giving special instruction on Ki things to Hombu instructors... how many of those post-war instructors wound up being mind-blowing ki-specialists? Having the information out there doesn't mean that it's going to be used. It takes too much work. Granted, I think that at some time in the future all of this stuff will become more codified, but then too, so is gymnastics... and what part of the gymnastics community is world-class?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:49 PM   #136
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Not "secret," Mike. Just valued.
If you value something, you don't broadcast it into the wind like grass seed, without knowing where it's going to land.

If we were talking daughters, would you want yours "giving it away" to every joe, because every man deserves to enjoy her womanly charms? Wouldn't you be sitting by the front door with the shotgun?
My, my. How sexist, Cady. I wouldn't want my son to "give it away" either, but the analogy in relation to ki/kokyu skills simply fails, so I'll drop this part of the repartee.
Quote:
I'll have fun perusing the archives this weekend, but I don't expect to see anything earth-shaking. Detailed explorations of the deeper applications of very basic things you might offer ain't gonna see the light of day here (or find their way out of your QiJin site, if they ever see the light of day even there). And it's perfectly understandable why that is.
We're talking basics, Cady... so your complaint about "the advanced ain't here" doesn't really fly. Still, I appreciate hearing your opinion.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:00 PM   #137
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Haowen Chan wrote: View Post
Also refer to Mike's articles on Aikido Journal and his tutorial written for Internal Strength magazine which are still online somewhere, they're easily googled.
Definitely good stuff there.
http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/peng-index.htm
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #138
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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I don't think it's so good. In fact, it's pretty amateurish. But we all have to start somewhere, as much as we'd like to think (or pretend) that we were born with knowledge of this stuff in our DNA. Well... maybe we'd like to think that our teachers were born with it in their DNA. Nah.... all of that is fantasy. Hard work and access to knowledge is involved.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:26 PM   #139
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike Sigman wrote:

Quote:
Personally, the main thing I see that can happen "in the wrong hands" is that the wrong-hands people will try to parlay the knowledge into power. I've seen it happen many times in the past and, IMO, it's the greatest threat to the general martial-arts practitioner. The questionable people who get a few bits and pieces of this stuff tend to start lording it over other people and attracting students based on it. That's their right, of course, so I don't begrudge it... I simply try to offset them where I can by showing what little I know to other people so that a balance develops
I would agree. I think we have seen this in general with MA coming to the West post WWII to present. I think about everyone that hung up a shingle in the 70's with "American Kickboxing/Karate". To day you'd be hard pressed to attract students as we have more informed people out there with MMA coming of age. (Although, it still amazes me that you can still find this stuff out there with followers!).

In the U.S. at least I think "caveat emptor" applies. Certainly, with things like internal skills it can be difficult at best to quantify who has want and what constitutes quality.

The catch I think is, that it seems that attempts to quantify it, (contest, test, and competitions), can be a catch 22 as you know.

I think your approach is best. It is confrontational, and may not be comfortable or "polite", it does attempt to shed light, and hold some degree of accountability.

This is how I approach all my training these days. If you tell me what you do, or can do, then define the parameters or end state and show me. I will then judge for myself if this is correct.

For example, if you tell me that these skills will improve your ability to fight in UFC type venues, then I will expect you to demonstrate that ability under the same set of conditions.

Failure to be able to do this, may not mean that you do not have any modicum of skill, however you get a big "F" in my book for what you held yourself out to be able to do.

It could be that what you do does apply, but until you can "put up" it is just speculation on your part.

I don't think you can stop people from taking a little bit of knowledge and then parlay that into something more.

On a same parallel the Modern Army Combatives Program takes heat from outsiders because we are doing a MMA type of paradigm for training these days. Typical opponents are the "old school" TMA guys or the Fairburn-Sykes advocates.

Couple of reasons why they hate the program, one they really do not understand fighting. two, they no longer have a vehicle to say they have something to offer the military. three, they are having an increasingly hard time of using "former teacher of seal team 6" as a resume builder because they trained with a Seal at a seminar for an hour.

The model we use holds people alot more accountable for their skills and knowledge...We took an "Open Source" focus like MMA and vice a "Microsoft" approach.

It certainly is more difficult to do this with IMA stuff as it can be hard to quantify success. However, I think your approach (Mike's) to this being more "Open Source" and encouraging synthesis back into your current art with those of us in arts like aikido is a good strategy.

Hopefully there will be enough out there with an open mind to complete this synthesis without getting ego or politics involved.

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Old 02-25-2008, 06:40 PM   #140
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
In the U.S. at least I think "caveat emptor" applies. Certainly, with things like internal skills it can be difficult at best to quantify who has want and what constitutes quality.
I agree. To some extent the student has to be smart enough to think things through and discern what is real/functional and what's not. If they're not smart enough to do that, they're not smart enough to go on a "Tao/Do". A Tao/Do involves these skills as part of the Way; it is mentioned and referred to in all the classics, although many westerners thought it was just "Asia-speak".
Quote:
I think your approach is best. It is confrontational, and may not be comfortable or "polite", it does attempt to shed light, and hold some degree of accountability.
Y'know, one tries to be polite, but after a while it's a matter of realizing that not everyone is cut out for (or interested) in these things. So you try to cut out the emotion, the "rank", the "status", the "protocols", etc., and cut to the chase.
Quote:
This is how I approach all my training these days. If you tell me what you do, or can do, then define the parameters or end state and show me. I will then judge for myself if this is correct.

For example, if you tell me that these skills will improve your ability to fight in UFC type venues, then I will expect you to demonstrate that ability under the same set of conditions.
Well, we've had this discussion before. To use a worst-case approximation, you're saying that an 80-year-old Ueshiba, Takeda, etc., wouldn't have substantive information for you because they couldn't cut it on the mat with Chuck Liddell. I disagree. I think you have to be more cautious, analyse (this will truly determine whether you're really smart or not) the applicability, and so on. Just the fact that Asian martial artists have said "this is the optimal way to go" for thousands of years should tell you something. Of course, they could be wrong and you might be smarter than generations of them.
Quote:
On a same parallel the Modern Army Combatives Program takes heat from outsiders because we are doing a MMA type of paradigm for training these days. Typical opponents are the "old school" TMA guys or the Fairburn-Sykes advocates.

Couple of reasons why they hate the program, one they really do not understand fighting. two, they no longer have a vehicle to say they have something to offer the military. three, they are having an increasingly hard time of using "former teacher of seal team 6" as a resume builder because they trained with a Seal at a seminar for an hour.

The model we use holds people alot more accountable for their skills and knowledge...We took an "Open Source" focus like MMA and vice a "Microsoft" approach.

It certainly is more difficult to do this with IMA stuff as it can be hard to quantify success. However, I think your approach (Mike's) to this being more "Open Source" and encouraging synthesis back into your current art with those of us in arts like aikido is a good strategy.

Hopefully there will be enough out there with an open mind to complete this synthesis without getting ego or politics involved.
I like MMA because it is another of the steps forward from the Fairburn/Sykes stuff, boxing, early judo, Karoddy, etc., progressions. On the other hand, I don't think it is the end of all forward progress, either. I often hear MMA guys put down the Chinese because they don't compete in MMA stuff. Of course, in the present day, China doesn't have the ranks of fighters it did in the days (like in the Tang Dynasty) when your position in the army depended a lot on how well you could fight. In those days, the ki/kokyu skills were the top, in addition to the subtleties and techniques. You threw someone or you hit them very hard. Most of the MMA stuff I've seen depends on submission.... but submission was an alien concept because if you were that close to someone, the rule was to maim, rip out flesh (hands were often trained to pulverize the porcelain in a cup between the fingers!), take out eyes, rip out sternocleidomastoids, etc., etc. The idea that a close encounter went to a "submission" was alien.

Secondly, and you can get an inkling from some of the elementary stuff we did at the workshop (remember, I'm essentially an amateur), I don't think most MMA guys can really hit very hard and the ones that can are only generalists. The really big-dog CMA guys could shake buildings, put fingers through metal, etc. I think we're on the road to re-discovery, but I don't think our soft western culture is as tough as the MMA guys would have us believe yet. But we're headed in the right direction, IMO.

P.S..... I don't want to turn this into a MMA versus Internal discussion.

YMMV.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:43 PM   #141
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike wrote:

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Well, we've had this discussion before. To use a worst-case approximation, you're saying that an 80-year-old Ueshiba, Takeda, etc., wouldn't have substantive information for you because they couldn't cut it on the mat with Chuck Liddell. I disagree. I think you have to be more cautious, analyse (this will truly determine whether you're really smart or not) the applicability, and so on. Just the fact that Asian martial artists have said "this is the optimal way to go" for thousands of years should tell you something. Of course, they could be wrong and you might be smarter than generations of them.
Of course not! I think 80 year old Ueshiba would have wisdom enough not to make categorical and broad statements of this nature. He would also probably have a much more complex view of things and offer proper guidance and advice.

However, if he made such a claim, he or someone he trained should be able to qualify said claim.

No I don't think MMA is the end all of everything either, that is, the endstate of the path. My hope is that there is a maturation or synthesis, further progression, or refinement.

I will be sorely disappointed if this turns into a MMA versus thread, that was not my intent in using MMA paradigm as an example. The conversation should be much more evolved than this.

I would tend to agree with you on the hitting power these days. However, all the exercises and CMA stuff I have seen or been exposed to tends to take place in a limited and constrained way. Hence my frustration when people offer conjecture that it applies to "X" or "Y".

My questions would be how do achieve the same power when so many variables are going on?

I think if and when synthesis takes place, we might have some new issues to deal with WRT to safety and rules.

Yes, headed in the right direction!

I think it is simply wonderful that there seems to be people coming forward that want to see this synthesis happen.

What I like about what you have said is that if someone says that they can do this or that...you visit them and see if they can do it better.

All I am really saying is the same thing. If someone says they can hit harder than Chuck Liddel then I would expect them to define EXACTLY what you mean by that. one, in general in a CMA context, or in the ring. If they mean in the ring, then I would expect them to do so under the same conditions.

PS...for those that read only the beginning and the end of a post and don't pay attention to the salient points...this IS NOT intended to be a discussion about MMA vice Internal MA.

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:00 PM   #142
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Of course not! I think 80 year old Ueshiba would have wisdom enough not to make categorical and broad statements of this nature. He would also probably have a much more complex view of things and offer proper guidance and advice.

However, if he made such a claim, he or someone he trained should be able to qualify said claim.
But what if in your neighborhood in Northern Virgina you are introduced to some skinny old guy who tries to tell you that he has a "better way"? I.e., he can't compete in the MMA, etc. You should be able to see what he does, analyse the feel of it, and think how it might be applicable to generating forces, overcoming an opponent's position, etc., without having to "get it on". That's what I mean. In other words, the primary analysis is done with the mind, not the bout in the ring.

Similarly, if we're lifting weights and I show you how to use pressure, groundpath, and the back-bow to increase the amount of lift in a military press, you should be able to calculate the addition to available forces and realize that such a tactic indeeds adds forces to the total-force-chain without making me do a press of 500 pounds in order to prove it. That's what I mean about seeing the truth through thought and analysis (based, of course, on your own wisdom and experience).

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:21 PM   #143
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Sure, I did that except it was a fat old guy in PA a couple of weeks ago! (couldn't resist!)

I agree and I think I feel that what you offer MAY be of value.

Where I stop short is saying that it does have value. I think it would be absurb at this point for me with a limited exposure to a few exercises to start with rhetoric that says "wow, this is great stuff and it has application here and here and here!"

The challenge is for me to approach things honestly with a beginners mind and work through this in attempt to learn and synthesize it in what is useful to me.

Hence, alot of my questions to you in person trying to relate things back to things I already had concepts of, BJJ, grappling, Aikido, yoga.

My cynicism rears it's ugly head when people start making claims or speculations, yet cannot adequately demonstrate application. This seems to happen alot in Martial Arts.

I like your weight lifting analogy, it is a good one. Better than MMA, and less emotionally wrought. Weight lifting is quantifiable.

I agree that you should not have to demonstrate that you can lift 500 lbs. Wouldn't you think though if you showed me how to do this, and assuming that I could do it correctly, I should see some improvement in the amount of weight I could lift or efficiency.

I think the weight lifting example is indeed what you did for us at the seminar. Which is okay. Again, what would be wrong would be for someone to attend, then walk away and say it will improve your weight lifting, yet they cannot show how!

Jimmy keeps saying to me, "we are going to learn this stuff, no matter how much it is going to hurt you!"

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:28 PM   #144
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

back to primary analysis being done with the mind, not in the ring.

Key to being able to perform the analysis is experience. You could do the analysis with the mind if you have experience upon which to base this on.

So, a more direct answer to your post is this:

"Yes, it would be possible for Chuck Liddell to meet an 80 year old man and learn somethings from him, and Chuck Liddell could evaluate mentally how this might be helpful."

Could an aikidoka with no experience in the ring make that same conclusion. My submission is No. It is simple conjecture on his point since he lacks the necessary experience to make a qualified evaluation.

We see this alot in martial arts.

The key is to keep the synthesis within the boundaries of your own experiences, or try and broaden them to allow you to make more qualified ones.

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:42 PM   #145
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Where I stop short is saying that it does have value. I think it would be absurd at this point for me with a limited exposure to a few exercises to start with rhetoric that says "wow, this is great stuff and it has application here and here and here!"
Well, clinically, I'd suggest that you saw some demonstrations of a few things that would be of imaginable benefit martially. If you didn't see forces, etc., at work that had *potential* you would have simply shrugged it off and I wouldn't blame you. But that's where you have to start.. potentially useful ways of using forces that seem perhaps more efficient than just muscular use of strength.
Quote:
My cynicism rears it's ugly head when people start making claims or speculations, yet cannot adequately demonstrate application. This seems to happen alot in Martial Arts.
Obviously, I should have hit someone a little harder or thrown somebody in an impressive way, but unfortunately I was mainly interested in leading everyone through a chain of logic. And everyone was brain-fried enough without us going into side issues. Maybe another time.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:53 PM   #146
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

No, you hit me hard enough to get my attention.

Yes, most certainly I saw from my limited point of view, that I can conject at this point where it might have martial value.

What you do is certainly NOT out of line with the principles that I have learned in the past, both from TMA, MMA, and from stuff such as proper shooting postures close quarters battle that I learned in the military environment.

At this point though, I would not offer to say how it translates, nor start talking about applications in those environments. It is premature for me to do so and possibly dangerous.

right now, I am going to Aikido and BJJ classes and stumbling around like an idiot, running into people, hitting them too hard, off balance, getting choked out, and all that fun stuff.

Also this, please don't think my comments are directed at you in anyway. When I speak of cynicism, it is of a general nature and speaking in macroscopic terms.

What I saw and experienced with you...was not that at all, but of surprise and validation!

Nothing like I expected!

I guess what got me started on this tangent tonight was all the talk about secret techniques and why we have to protect others from themselves and the power of what this "can do".

that is all!

Been a good discussion and helped me think about a few things!

Thanks

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:58 PM   #147
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Key to being able to perform the analysis is experience. You could do the analysis with the mind if you have experience upon which to base this on.

So, a more direct answer to your post is this:

"Yes, it would be possible for Chuck Liddell to meet an 80 year old man and learn somethings from him, and Chuck Liddell could evaluate mentally how this might be helpful."

Could an aikidoka with no experience in the ring make that same conclusion. My submission is No. It is simple conjecture on his point since he lacks the necessary experience to make a qualified evaluation.

We see this alot in martial arts.

The key is to keep the synthesis within the boundaries of your own experiences, or try and broaden them to allow you to make more qualified ones.
I agree. But it works both ways. For instance, submitting someone is cool, but it's an alien concept to many fighters in the world. In the very old days of Chinese martial arts, close-in fighting was meant to be ended quickly, hence the studies of Dian Xue, muscle grabbing tricks, joint locks, training the hands to rip out flesh, and so on. Not to mention many other things, all of which are not allowed in a UFC cage. Different strokes for different folks. If you're saying that someone has to play by MMA rules for it to count, I'd point out that you would object if I told you an MMA fighter had to fight a Pigua fighter on their rules. All of which becomes nonsensical.

On the other hand, if you boil down the techniques that are important to the most effective in terms of survivability in combat, then it's a different animal entirely, isn't it? In which case, all the extraordinary strengths, neutralizations, tactics, etc., change... and the way you evaluate things has to change, too. I think more along those lines, not MMA. I don't want someone to mangle me in a bar and have him walk away with everyone murmuring, "Wow, that guy is a nasty fighter!".... I want to walk away from the bar with everyone saying about me, "Wow, that guy is a nasty fighter!".

BTW, my groundwork is limited, but I still did a fair amount of it in judo, etc. And I watch all the MMA fights (because my wife makes me sit there with her). There are some comments I could make about some of the skills that would be applicable, but I just don't want to go into it in this thread. There's more than we had a chance to cover in that workshop, but let me emphasize that my focus for many years has been how to acquire these strengths and I don't want to get off into a martial-arts comparison because I'm not offering to do that. I can show you how to do some things, but you'd have to practice if you wanted to learn how to apply them in your favored arts.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:13 PM   #148
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I agree that it becomes nonsensical.

boiling things down to what works in combat doesn't work either. Re tried that with Fairburn Sykes type mentality and look what that did for us!

It would be a shame to get down to a technical martial focus with what you are teaching. How would that work anyway???

I think it is up to individuals to interpret applications based upon a sound base of principles. When you start teaching technically, you start having issues.

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Old 02-25-2008, 09:20 PM   #149
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I agree that it becomes nonsensical.

boiling things down to what works in combat doesn't work either. Re tried that with Fairburn Sykes type mentality and look what that did for us!

It would be a shame to get down to a technical martial focus with what you are teaching. How would that work anyway???

I think it is up to individuals to interpret applications based upon a sound base of principles. When you start teaching technically, you start having issues.
I agree. I would be such a complex subject and I'm frankly not qualified to do it, as I tried to say. There are guys who can train and demonstrate the way these skills are used in combat, but heck, I had to waste about 30 years just being focused on how to get to these skills, so I don't claim anything martially except what I can do for myself.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-26-2008, 07:36 AM   #150
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

And the applications we did work on were great as a starting point for how to realize the skills in our chosen art.

Frankly, anyone with a brain can figure out applications, between their own experience and just trying things out. Enjoyed the conversation!!

Best,
Ron

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