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Old 02-18-2008, 12:57 PM   #101
Dan Austin
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I've usually been known to imply that Mike is probably better at this stuff than me by virtue if nothing else that he's been at it longer, same for other guys too.
LOL. Do you really not see how egotistical that statement is? It's not that Mike S. could *know* anything you don't know, it's just that he's been *practicing* longer! So, what are the foundation exercises that Mike S (and you of course) do, and what specifically do they accomplish in western, English terms instead of handwaving eastern mysticism? Oh wait, you just asked Mike S to do that, which makes no sense because you say you know the stuff he knows. Nevermind the logic, I look forward to your one-line non-response.

Once again you make a post where the only purpose is to say "me too!" without any substantiation whatsoever. Which, I predict, is exactly what your next post will say, in slightly different language, while dodging any specifics, and then the one after that, and after that.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:08 PM   #102
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Dan Austin wrote:

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I've yet to see anyone who's met one of the Internal Guys(tm) come back and say they already knew what they did, so your implicit claims are rather dubious.
This is not the best analogy in the world, but what the heck....

Sort of like making trying to make Cinnabon rolls at home. We can make cinnamon rolls....but for whatever reason we just can't seem to get them to taste the same!

It was interesting working with Mike Sigman. You realize that you come to the table with the ability to do various "things", You even have elements of it in your training, however when working with him in what I call a "very narrow/concentrated area" of aiki skills, you find that you cannot simply produce the same results as him, as powerful, or as easily. He can simply replicate things over and over again with much more ease than ANYONE I saw in the room those two days.

Ron (who now won't write a review) Tisdale, I am betting would say the same thing, as will others.

i cannot attest to Mike Sigman's ability to "do aikido" since we never really "did aikido" we simply worked on exercises that were designed to produce or develop certain things.

In my 15 years of martial arts training all over the world, I have NEVER met anyone that has spent that amount of time in this area. I could attribute that to a couple of things. One, I have not met the right teachers. Two, I met the right teachers and they did not see it as crucial to spend that time with me, or they did not really understand how to convey these skills in such a way.

So, all I can say is this. The weekend I spent with Mike gave me more than enough material to work on and a "road map" to at least get on the right road in this area.

Will it guarantee success? No, I see this as a long, and difficult journey, but at least now I know where to begin and what I am looking for.

In coming back from that seminar, I have studied with some people in my organization. It is interesting, they have many of the skills that Mike teaches, I realize that now. I see what they are doing in a different light though. Things such as "use your hips", "get in good Hamni", and "put your hand like this". Just are not helpful enought to get you there.

I feel a little more encourage that I might be able to "steal" from them now that I have "felt it better", AND I have a methodology and process to better "steal" it.

What is interesting is that for the most part, I have not found "completeness" to the degree that I felt in Mike in any of the people I have trained with in the past couple of weeks. Some more than others. ALL WAAAY past my level of skill. Yet, I am starting to see "gaps" in their skills.

Maybe it is sort of like getting a "encrypted code" and someone giving you "almost" a complete cypher. You can decrypt the message to a point, but can't quite get the whole thing decrypted, which is important!

Anyway, I have found myself in the past "barking up the wrong tree". It is easy to get stuck conceptually and mentally trying to process what we know and what others know...then make this huge jump to saying we know it physically.

I think this is a big issue when dealing with physical knowledge. Again, I go back to the elephant analogy.

Keep an open mind, it is best!

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Old 02-18-2008, 01:29 PM   #103
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
The writing on the wall appears to be that these skills are valid and not well known, so the people who are currently teachers in Aikido have a choice of reaction. Some will get excited about it, as the people who have gone to see these gentlemen show, while others will be vested in their teacher status and not want to start from square one. Of the latter there will undoubtedly be a subset who will claim that they knew these skills all along, and who will be furiously training to try to get them before anyone discovers that they didn't know them all along. Such is the state of humanity with all that peace, love, and harmony stuff.
This is a very good point, Dan. I see/saw a lot of this happen in the Taiji, Xingy, and Bagua community. Essentially, in the real world, there begins to be a dichotomy (using the Taiji world as an example). The wannabelievers begin to get isolated and continue on with what they've been doing. It is the beginning of the end for their brand of an art (might take a generation or two, but it's a done deal).

On the other hand, of the people that move forward, or try to give the appearance of moving forward, the ones who "knew these skills all along" are something of a problem to me personally because I've seen what happens to their students further down the road. It's a problem.

My personal thought is to go around the people who "already know this stuff" and to make sure that bona fide enthusiasts get more information, in order to level out the playing field (or to even give the advantage to the bona fide enthusiasts). If nothing else, a game of catch-up is really not bad for any art because it fosters some quiet but earnest competition.

Several scenarios come to mind. One is that the guy who "already knows this stuff" has to be careful because he puts himself into a dead-end where nobody will give him any information (or any more information, if he does happen to know some aspects of the skills). So he has to be careful that he doesn't cut his own throat with his self-bragging. Anyone with common-sense recognizes the constraint and begins to settle in to the serious pursuit of acquiring these skills, so it tends to work itself out.

Another scenario is where there is someone with real skills, let's say at a national gathering. If a number of people show up who can do the elementary ki/kokyu skills he's been using to establish his credentials (or his "come worship me" status), he's forced suddenly to show higher-level stuff, almost invariably. It becomes a game of one-upmanship which is, once again, simply a form of competition that is in actuality good for the art.

But the guys who "already know this stuff"... I'm always willing to look or listen and if they've got 'em I'll be the first person to admit it. The guy who is bluffing and trying to learn how things work while at the same time pretending he's known it all along... pass. Not because it's a pecking-order thing, in my perspective, but because I have a bad feeling about what he's passing on a "Truth" to people who are his students. I.e., I just don't see any benefit to allowing the "already can do it" people to play their game while never showing their hand to anyone.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-18-2008 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:39 PM   #104
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
i cannot attest to Mike Sigman's ability to "do aikido" since we never really "did aikido" we simply worked on exercises that were designed to produce or develop certain things.
No question about it, Kevin. I "learned" Judo, Uechi Ryu karate, and Aikido at various times in my life. I can't do or teach any of them. (A.) Because I don't practice them. (B.) Because what I learned was wrong. I didn't know and understand these skills. Can I demonstrate a number of Aikido techniques, etc.? Yes. But I'd do it wrong. It's up to you guys to take the ki/kokyu skills and put them into real Aikido; I missed that boat and will never catch it.
Quote:
In my 15 years of martial arts training all over the world, I have NEVER met anyone that has spent that amount of time in this area. I could attribute that to a couple of things. One, I have not met the right teachers. Two, I met the right teachers and they did not see it as crucial to spend that time with me, or they did not really understand how to convey these skills in such a way.
In terms of people who focus on just the ki/kokyu skills in a martial art, I think it's a unique niche, Kevin. In respect to me, it's because like you, I could never find anyone who would answer my questions and show me (in most cases, almost no one really had a full spectrum of skills, anyway)... so lacking a dancing teacher, I had to find out how to be a dancing teacher, and by the time I learned how to do the skills, it was too late to be a good dancer, for me.
Quote:
So, all I can say is this. The weekend I spent with Mike gave me more than enough material to work on and a "road map" to at least get on the right road in this area.

Will it guarantee success? No, I see this as a long, and difficult journey, but at least now I know where to begin and what I am looking for.

In coming back from that seminar, I have studied with some people in my organization. It is interesting, they have many of the skills that Mike teaches, I realize that now. I see what they are doing in a different light though. Things such as "use your hips", "get in good Hamni", and "put your hand like this". Just are not helpful enought to get you there.

I feel a little more encouraged that I might be able to "steal" from them now that I have "felt it better", AND I have a methodology and process to better "steal" it.

What is interesting is that for the most part, I have not found "completeness" to the degree that I felt in Mike in any of the people I have trained with in the past couple of weeks. Some more than others. ALL WAAAY past my level of skill. Yet, I am starting to see "gaps" in their skills.

Maybe it is sort of like getting a "encrypted code" and someone giving you "almost" a complete cypher. You can decrypt the message to a point, but can't quite get the whole thing decrypted, which is important!

Anyway, I have found myself in the past "barking up the wrong tree". It is easy to get stuck conceptually and mentally trying to process what we know and what others know...then make this huge jump to saying we know it physically.
Good points. I think you're doing exactly the right thinking, Kevin. To be honest, I had misjudged you, prior to the workshop. I was impressed watching you puzzle things out.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-18-2008 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:41 PM   #105
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Hi folks,

Can you all just please drop all of the personal stuff? It's unnecessary here and I'm frankly sick and tired of seeing it all.

-- Jun

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Old 02-18-2008, 04:30 PM   #106
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Thanks, Mike.

I agree with Jun, that we need to probably drop the personal stuff.

However, the pointed and heated discussions that have taken place in the last two years on this topic have been good ones I think.

I for one don't think I would have spent the time that I have spent in this area if it would not have been for such discussions.

I think it gets personal because our art is very person in nature to us. Along comes new ideas, concepts, paradigms that upset of conflict with what we believe (dissonance), and we start to take it personal as the information we are being presented with conflicts with that which we believe!

I know this has happened to me many, many times in my martial career. It is also dangerous to your progression.

My biggest leaps have been when I have butted up against the "wall" that represents what I think I know, and challenged them. It typically results in a combination of fear, anger, denial and a feeling of wasted time as I learn to cope with it.

This happened to me when I went to BJJ and MMA type training from Aikido. It happened when I went from Karate to Aikido, and now with this "internal stuff".

In all cases, I had to relearn new ways of doing and reacting to what I previously did.

Anyway, one reason I posted the quote from Patton about 18 months ago, was to remind myself of these things when I found myself getting too critical of things!

In doing some of my post graduate work for the military, we actually spend a fair amount of time studying things such as this. that is, learning how to think outside of the box and avoiding simply defaulting to success in the past without taking into account new information and concepts.

Just something to think about!

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Old 02-18-2008, 05:12 PM   #107
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
However, the pointed and heated discussions that have taken place in the last two years on this topic have been good ones I think.

I for one don't think I would have spent the time that I have spent in this area if it would not have been for such discussions.

I think it gets personal because our art is very person in nature to us. Along comes new ideas, concepts, paradigms that upset of conflict with what we believe (dissonance), and we start to take it personal as the information we are being presented with conflicts with that which we believe!
The interesting thing about the ki/kokyu stuff is that it's not really "new stuff", not in the sense of BJJ or Systema or something that "might add to someone's Aikido". The ki/kokyu stuff is in a separate category. It's in a category of "stuff you're already supposed to know", which makes it very weird indeed.

The polite thing to do would be to never question anyone with established and official rank in Aikido (this same comment could apply to a number of other arts, too). But then, what would that be doing to Aikido? What would that be doing to the droves of present and future newbies? In order to be polite and not make waves, the art itself would be sacrificed for the sake of a few "seniors" and the lives and learning of scads of newbies would be arbitrarily defrauded for the sake of "not making waves". It's a fascinating subject to think about.

I noted earlier that I don't have any expertise in Aikido and that part of the reason for that was because I learned it wrong. I learned a bunch of techniques, etc., (no matter how subtle, how well I 'entered', etc., etc.). At one point I had a teacher who had some rudimentary kokyu/jin skills that he could use in set situations in Kokyu-ho and some kokyu-nages.... but he never taught anyone how to do those things because those were his "edge". I knew that what I was looking for in Aikido was missing and western Aikido was too often a political/social game based on technique, etc., so I folded my hand and went to look elsewhere for those skills... and I don't have any compunction saying that the Aikido I did was arguably not Aikido-enough to be called Aikido.

But supposed I'd stayed in Aikido. By now I might be a Rokudan or some such. Would I be doing Aikido, though?

If I was a Rokudan, I'd be incensed at anyone suggesting that I was not a certified Grand Poobah. And I'd let them know what I thought. The question is, who has the greater personality problem.... the outraged Sigman Rokudan or the guy who points out to him that he's missing something crucial? Fascinating subject. And personally, if I was a Rokudan, I'd appreciate the moderators of various internet forums being on my side and relegating outlaw discussions about Ki to "non-Aikido Martial Traditions".

The point I'm getting at is that there are so many facets to this subject and so many ramifications that it deserves a complete airing. Personal remarks need to be left out, of course, but there seems to be some confusion on this forum about what the difference between a clinical discussion that "hits close to home" is and a real "ad hominem" attack.

If the topic is too sensitive for AikiWeb, then some of the more serious practitioners need to find another place to discuss the topic... no discussion forum is more important than this topic. And I'm serious about the need to thrash out the subject, even though a lot of people still would like to see it die, for largely (I suspect) personal reasons. The longer this topic gets muffled, the more of a disservice is being done to a number of members of the Aikido community, particularly the up-and-coming rank and file.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:31 PM   #108
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Hi Mike,

Just to clarify, I am not speaking about the topics being discussed, but the rather personal tone that some people are employing which derails from the topics at hand. I welcome the discussions (and workshops and such) like that going on in this thread; I do not, however, welcome some of the tone that I have perceived.

-- Jun

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:15 AM   #109
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
PS

Actually, after reading today's threads, I think I've changed my mind about posting a review.

Best,
Ron
Ron,

If you have a review done I'd be interested in reading it. If you don't want to post it you can PM me. As a fellow yoshinkan guy, I am interested in your review because I know you have been to seminars/training sessions with Ark, Dan and now Mike and I'd like to hear your comments about similarities, differences an which approach you find fits best with your yoshinkan background.

I've been to see Ark and want to go see Mike and Dan in the next year. You insights will no doubt provide me with some encouragement and food for thought.

Thanks,

Dan.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #110
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Hi Dan,

I am working on the review still. I'm sorry I lost it above...I just have too much on my hands to deal with the pointless bickering. Please be assured that is not a personal dig at anyone.

As a result, I am going to post the review and my progress on working on these skills in my blog on this site. Anyone interested in discussing these things with me can do so there. HEADS UP...I will summarily cut off discussion with anyone not interested in honest discussion. Simply don't have the time or energy for it.

Best,
Ron (the seminar was wonderfull, as were the other two I went too...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:16 PM   #111
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Thanks Ron, I will definitely be reading it and I am interested in your progress as I proceed in my own training. Maybe I should do the same so maybe we can all work through this together!

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Old 02-19-2008, 09:42 PM   #112
Keith R Lee
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Damn. Sounds like this was a really good seminar. Wish I could have made it!

Keith Lee
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:13 AM   #113
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I'd like to make a comment about the discussions of some of these workshops, from my perspective. But first I'd like to note that not everyone who teaches the so-called "internal" skills is doing the same thing in the same way, the same skills within, the same level, etc., so some of the implications that every instructor in "internal" skills is interchangeable is simply wrong. That has to be born in mind when these topics are talked about.

I went to see Ushiro Sensei in Glenwood Springs a couple of years ago because I was curious about what he could do at what level, but mostly I was curious about his teaching method and the clarity of his exposition. Part of my worry about whether he was explaining things clearly was fostered by the very vague-but-positive remarks from people who had seen him demonstrate/teach, etc. After seeing him teach, I understood what he showed and to what level, but I could also see that things weren't clear enough for most people to get something in the sense that they could describe it clearly and kick-off a good thinking-conversation that would benefit people in the Aikido community, or at least on AikiWeb. The point being that whatever people may or may not have derived from Ushiro's workshops, there's not much in the way of explication on public forums about what it really is, how it works, or how to train it.

Rob John has attempted to articulate Akuzawa's approach to some degree. I met up with Rob and I listened and I felt, but to be honest I was listening once again more for how well the definition and articulation of Ark's process. Rob articulates pretty well on QiJin when he posts, but the people who have been to see him or Akuzawa have really posted very little (other than about their muscle burn) on any forum that I've seen. The theory, perceived usages, etc., are not discussed. Again... same problem.

Dan is his own category and regardless of his original suggestions that his stuff couldn't be talked about because it involved "koryu secrets", yada, yada, yada, the end-result is the same, if not a little worse. People who have been to see Dan and learned whatever are under a constraint to not talk about the how's, why's, training methods, etc. I'm always leery of that sort of approach, personally, because I know that so many things, not necessarily always good, can be hidden within that approach. But regardless, the point is that the discussions among the Aikido community about the basic information aren't coming out from that source either.

Personally, I don't see any reason why the basic skills can't be broadly talked about. It's tough to get started and a lot of cross-talk, competition, discussion of theory, etc., is good for everyone, in my opinion. It's very hard to get much from the discussions alone (it has to be felt, etc.), so there's not much danger of any major secrets getting spilled. For someone to learn some of the more advanced stuff, even if they know some basics they'll still have to be personally shown, so there's no real worry about the "secrets" being divulged in a written forum.

The point of my comment is that I'm encouraging everyone who was at that workshop in Pennsylvania to feel free and write things. Try to articulate what you learned and how you're practicing it, and so on. The more you talk and question each other (and outsiders), the more you'll be forced to think and to examine what it is that you're trying to do. I'm certainly not going to be upset that you're revealing the "secrets", so I'd be quite happy to see discussion on AikiWeb or Aikido Journal that openly discuss these things. It would help everyone in the community, in my opinion. If you want these skills to blossom out in Aikido, you've got to be part of the process.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:14 AM   #114
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Thank you Mike. That was one of your best posts ever!
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:46 AM   #115
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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so I'd be quite happy to see discussion on AikiWeb or Aikido Journal that openly discuss these things.
Sorry, I should have mentioned TWK's new website:
http://www.internal-aiki.com/ also. And other sites. What I meant was "sites dedicated to the Aikido community", as opposed to rec.martial-arts, Bullshido, etc.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:09 AM   #116
ChrisMoses
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Rob John has attempted to articulate Akuzawa's approach to some degree. I met up with Rob and I listened and I felt, but to be honest I was listening once again more for how well the definition and articulation of Ark's process. Rob articulates pretty well on QiJin when he posts, but the people who have been to see him or Akuzawa have really posted very little (other than about their muscle burn) on any forum that I've seen. The theory, perceived usages, etc., are not discussed. Again... same problem.
It sounds like you're associating the lack of specifics posted online with a lack of specifics with how Akuzawa instructs his system. IMHO this would be a mistake. Rob and Ark are excellent at exposition, particularly at bridging terminology across people with varying experience. I don't post many specifics about my own training (either WRT Neil's stuff or the Aunkai methods) because I know there are people on these forums in much better positions to comment *and with greater ownership over the material* than I have. I think it would be absurd for me to start expounding in detail on the training methods of the Aunkai online. That would imply a greater understanding than I would ever claim to have. Further, I think it would be quite rude. The only info I would feel comfortable discussing online, would be those concepts and exercises that Rob has already posted. In that case, why should I comment when his text would likely be a better resource for someone who was interested?

I do not believe in an open and completely free exchange of ideas *online*. There are some things you can talk about, and others that I feel face to face contact is required. When I teach, I will answer any question asked of me to the best of my ability. But that's because the person asking the question has made some effort (even if it's just coming to class) to interact with me personally. As an added bonus, it negates many of the negative issues of this kind of medium: perceived skill vs. actual skill, questions of legitimacy, verbal confusion. I believe people should have to work for something if they actually want it. Everyone who comes into the TNBBC is on probation, if they don't work out after a few months, they don't come back. In my sword line first you have to be willing to get up and make it to class at 7am on Saturday, even then most people do nothing but basic pre-kata movements for six months or more. Then before they're shown any of the inside kata, they have to achieve shodan (~3-6 years). Partly that's preserving the tradition of private and public teaching within the ryuha, but it's also a way of making sure that a student has the skills necessary to actually accomplish/appreciate the inside material.

It might sound like I'm being elitist here or making excuses, but that's really not my intention. I've never been paid a cent for any instruction that I've done including multi-week private lessons or workshops. I've also never turned down a request to train or to help someone get ready for an exam or just work on something they've been struggling with. But there's a LOT that I simply won't talk about in public forums.

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Old 02-25-2008, 10:17 AM   #117
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
It sounds like you're associating the lack of specifics posted online with a lack of specifics with how Akuzawa instructs his system.
I'm not, if you'll read it.
Quote:
But there's a LOT that I simply won't talk about in public forums.
Well, if someone posts useful information, I hope you'll have the grace to not read it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #118
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Sounds to me like Mike's criticism is thinly veiled baiting in the hope that he'll glean new information from sources that currently are not broadcasting such tidbits openly across the 'net.

Nothing wrong with desiring that, but why would anyone be so foolish as to cast something of value -- and which is potentially "dangerous" information in the wrong hands -- into the wind that way, not knowing where it's going to land?

The approach being taken thus far seems wise -- to let it be known that there is more to aikido (and other martial disciplines) than is being taught, that there are people who can teach it, and that if one is sincere and dedicated and takes the initiative to advance their own knowledge, one can approach and train with those people and obtain the skills.

Besides, talk is talk, and can easily be misinterpreted and misunderstood. You can discuss till the cows come home, but that will not transmit skill. As has been stated so many times, hands-on experience and transmission is the only real way to learn.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-25-2008 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:05 AM   #119
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Sounds to me like Mike's criticism is thinly veiled baiting in the hope that he'll glean new information from sources that currently are not broadcasting such tidbits openly across the 'net.
Well sure... that's why I check into AikiWeb all the time, because of the mountains of pointers!
Quote:
Nothing wrong with desiring that, but why would anyone be so foolish as to cast something of value -- and which is potentially "dangerous" information in the wrong hands -- into the wind that way, not knowing where it's going to land?

The approach being taken thus far seems wise -- to let it be known that there is more to aikido (and other martial disciplines) than is being taught, that there are people who can teach it, and that if one is sincere and dedicated and takes the initiative to advance their own knowledge, one can approach and train with those people and obtain the skills.
Y'know, I think I see the problem... you and Chris actually think this very basic stuff is higher-level than it is, Cady. It ain't. If you think the basics are a big deal, then sure, you think they should be protected and only allowed to a "few".... like you, for instance.

Personally, none of the stuff I've seen publicly posted or even the "I can do" stuff, is very high level. You're worried about anybody getting hold of the alphabet and my position is that letting the alphabet be talked about isn't going to make someone an essayist or poet.

Like I said, the stuff I covered at the Pennsylvania workshop, pretty basic and necessary stuff for Aikido... anyone who was there, feel free to discuss it publicly. It won't give anyone the ability to do it, just reading it, but it will certainly begin to tune the ear of Aikidoists in general to the "ki" side of Aikido.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:24 AM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
...and that if one is sincere and dedicated and takes the initiative to advance their own knowledge, one can approach and train with those people and obtain the skills.
Good heavens, Cady. Does one "approach" on bended knee, kowtowing, banging the head obsequiously, etc.? And if one is worthy, one gets to study with who? A well-known master of all aspects of internal skills or perhaps one runs into the same old game that is found in the rest of martial arts.... a person with incomplete knowledge acting like they are a master? The more things change, the more they remain the same. One has to be careful that in seeking the secrets he doesn't wind up with Bupkis mit Kuduchas.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:11 PM   #121
Timothy WK
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Mike might be coming on a bit strong right now, but I appreciate his sentiment. I also appreciate Chris' attitude that he doesn't want to speak beyond his experience.

I won't fault anyone for not wanting to talk, but I am a fan of open discussion. I believe the rarity of quality information makes it easier for frauds and non-qualified teachers to make false claims. If the curious have no way to reference the information they receive, how can they know what to look for when they seek instruction?

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:54 PM   #122
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Since when does "sincere, dedicated" and "taking the iniative" amount to kow-towing? It's just a state of interest that means that the individual will make an effort to seek out a source and take an active role in his own training.

There's a reason why teachers have been careful of whom they teach; for one thing, the onus is on them if a student abuses his acquired skills. Would you want your knowledge to end up in the hands of a sociopath or someone who would use it to do harm, or for exploitation? This is a very old story, and shouldn't have to be rehashed.

But as far as I know, anyone who has taken an interest and had the motivation, has been able to train with you, Ark, Dan and Ushiro. It's not like they had to offer their first-born into indentured servitude.

Detailed discussions may be fruitful among those who have already had a reasonable amount of exposure to these skills, but such conversations can take place in a private venue. I just don't see any value to such things being openly discussed on a public forum.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:38 PM   #123
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Since when does "sincere, dedicated" and "taking the iniative" amount to kow-towing? It's just a state of interest that means that the individual will make an effort to seek out a source and take an active role in his own training.
And who is to make the judgement about which people are qualified and qualified for what? I understand your point, but I've already diagrammed and explained a lot of the material I'm talking about on this very forum, yet no major city has burned to the ground.
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Would you want your knowledge to end up in the hands of a sociopath or someone who would use it to do harm, or for exploitation?
I think the point is more along the lines of which I spoke: basic knowledge should be available in a wider forum... your idea of "basic knowledge" is probably different from mine. If I remember correctly, you were offering to move me around at will, once upon a time, and here I've been doing seminars on this stuff since the early nineties; is it possible you're overestimating a few things? Here's a vid clip someone found that's a part of tapes I've had out since the mid-90's, Cady. How many sociopaths other than me are now wreaking havoc on the martial-arts world because of this exposing this dangerous knowledge?
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...20230360622262
Quote:
But as far as I know, anyone who has taken an interest and had the motivation, has been able to train with you, Ark, Dan and Ushiro. It's not like they had to offer their first-born into indentured servitude.
My corral is full enough of first-born, already, Cady. I actually restrict the workshops I do, for some people. One of the reasons I restrict the workshops is partially because I don't want any select few people to monopolize this kind of subject and set themselves up as essentially one-eyed kings in the Country of the Blind. I don't do workshops for a living and I abhor "followers" of any kind, so I tend to do what I want in this regard.
Quote:

Detailed discussions may be fruitful among those who have already had a reasonable amount of exposure to these skills, but such conversations can take place in a private venue. I just don't see any value to such things being openly discussed on a public forum.
Tush and Piffle! But each to his own opinion. Send the sheriff for me if I've broken any laws.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:48 PM   #124
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Well then, I'll sit here with rapt attention, waiting for you to start dishin' out them vittles: heaping helpings of specific step-by-step details on how to attain, develop and effect the most sophisticated applications of these internal skills, Mike!
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:11 PM   #125
Mike Sigman
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Well then, I'll sit here with rapt attention, waiting for you to start dishin' out them vittles: heaping helpings of specific step-by-step details on how to attain, develop and effect the most sophisticated applications of these internal skills, Mike!
Well, if I understand you aright, Cady, all I'd have to do is lay out some basic concepts and you'd be satisfied that they were "sophisticated".

Actually, even on QiJin, which is a closed list (although I understand Dan seemed to be OK with receiving information from it from anyone who would pass it on), there are whole areas of discussion I don't go into. But no one is even aware that I do it because there're just too many areas of these topics to even discuss already. The reason QiJin is a private list is that other contributors are loathe to discuss what they know, etc., and I have to respect that wish and restrict the membership and the privacy of posts by others.

But even with a pretty-much wide-open discussion on how these things work, there are still many factors that prevent people from acquiring a lot of useable information just by reading it.

Similarly, there are a number of ways to do Aikido training in these areas specifically. Ueshiba's method was not a train-by-tension-postures method, so a person has to be careful about the fact that "ki" is in Aikido, but not every approach to ki is the same variant that Ueshiba used. In other words, an Aikido-specific discussion about ki/kokyu skills might be a good thing so that the replication of skills is more in line with what Ueshiba intended, rather than winding up doing the equivalent of Southern Mantis training and calling it Taiji.

Best.

Mike
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