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Old 12-23-2007, 08:57 PM   #1
Roy Dean
 
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Sankyo Armlock

Hello! I recently posted a technique from my upcoming DVD, Connections: Aikido and BJJ.

A lower quality version can also be found on YouTube.

This technique flows from a wrist grab into kotegaeshi, followed by a kimura/sankyo, and then a straight armlock. This can be a very effective combination.

I hope this clip stimulates some thoughts in your own practice.

Best,

Roy Dean

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Old 12-23-2007, 09:24 PM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

All I can say is..... OUCH!

Merry X'mas Roy.

Boon.

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Old 12-23-2007, 09:49 PM   #3
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Merry Christmas to you too, Boon!

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Old 12-23-2007, 10:53 PM   #4
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Thanks Roy. Appreciate what you are doing. Look forward to your DVD.

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Old 12-24-2007, 09:31 AM   #5
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Looks great Roy. Looking forward to it!

Keith Lee
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:21 AM   #6
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

I do that all the time and never even realized it!

Very nice.

- Don
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:46 PM   #7
mickeygelum
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Quality technique, have used it many times...

Mickey
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Old 12-25-2007, 04:45 AM   #8
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

thanks for that Roy. I would be very keen to get a hold of this dvd once available. I've heard dvds like this talked about and obviously a bunch of us on this thread have been playing with combining concepts at various times so very interested to see your thoughts.

Out of curiosity - once you secure the standard kimura grip, can you expand a little on the utility of moving down to the sankyo grip? My initial, christmas cheer clouded response is it seems like an additional movement that doesn't actually help solve a "problem" as if you have the freedom to move to that grip, you probably just could have finished with the kimura anyway?

Keen to hear your thoughts.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-25-2007, 09:11 AM   #9
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Mr. Dean,

An interesting concept for the DVD, please keep us abreast of its development and release. In the particular example provided though, I find myself asking the same question as Michael Fooks. Since Sankyo is a wrist control designed to manipulate Uke's elbow and shoulder to allow Nage to connect to and move Uke's center along the vertical plane, I'm not sure I see the relevant motion for the wrist twist in your demonstrated technique, unless it was to merely cause Uke more pain. As Michael indicate it seems unnecessary for the completion of the technique.
Look forward to seeing some more though...

Regards and Happy Holidays,

Joe Bowen
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Old 12-25-2007, 12:04 PM   #10
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Incidentally, I think it would be a good thing for the standard kimura to be a part of standard Aikido training. I think the transition as demonstrated by Roy is a very secure way to follow up on a number of aikido takedowns -and will certainly get you out of trouble when uke stops playing the game.

Roy any indication when the dvd will be availible?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-25-2007, 05:35 PM   #11
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

I didn't interpret the move to the sankyo grip as anything other than viewing "options". I don't think I would have moved to that from a tactical standpoint. I thought it was more about teaching variations.

Also, I saw the whole sankyo thing as a way to "bridge" the gap from aikido to BJJ, showing application of the principle of sankyo.

I do the same concept from the guard, illustrating leg position in the open guard as Ikkyo.

Anyway, wouldn't it be great to somehow do a seminar with a bunch of us exploring aikido principle concepts as they apply in a BJJ/grappling context?

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Old 12-25-2007, 06:02 PM   #12
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Yeah on a second view this morning I realised it was probably more of a "if your hand happens to slip down this far you can do this". Either way it's cool to see people bringing this stuff together.

Quote:
wouldn't it be great to somehow do a seminar with a bunch of us exploring aikido principle concepts as they apply in a BJJ/grappling context?
damn skippy! New Zealand is a lovely place to holiday....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-26-2007, 05:06 AM   #13
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

The example in my opinion, is a poor if non-existent application of the sankyo principle in that the wrist twist with a "sankyo-esque" grip does nothing to influence or otherwise move the uke's center. The bridge between aikido and bjj here is flimsy and superficial.
One would hope that there could be a more substantial example than this. It's a start, I'll give you that, but I'd recommend a more thorough examination of sankyo.
I am intrigued by the Ikkyo principle illustrated by leg position in the open guard, tell me more, please.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:21 AM   #14
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

I have no experience with BJJ, so feel free to ignore me, but I wonder if people aren't misinterpreting the demonstration? It looks to me that he's demonstrating a kotegaeshi, and from the kotegaeshi he gets the sankyo grip, which he then uses for the arm bar. He demonstrates that, if in the course of the throw, that tori's hand ends up on the wrist/forearm, then it's still a workable kimura, but if the kotegaeshi is held it flows into a sankyo, and then the arm bar.

Watch the initial demonstration again - he still has uke's hand following the kotegaeshi, and he lets go to demonstrate the possible kimura. Note that in his original post Roy doesn't say, kotegaeshi to kimura to sankyo to armlock, but kotegaeshi to sankyo/kimura to armlock.

Josh Reyer

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Old 12-26-2007, 10:05 AM   #15
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Damn me for a fool, but if I had eyes then I could see!

Josh, you made me re-watch the clip and you make a very valid observation, but in the same line there is still no application of the wrist turn in the end of the technique which would lead me to say this is an application of sankyo.

It is a nice technique and makes a great finish to the kotegaeshi that he starts with but it does not apply the principle of sankyo through the twisting of the wrist.

Joe
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Old 12-26-2007, 03:11 PM   #16
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

I think the point is that after the kote-gaeshi, the transition into bjj type finishes with or without the sankyo grip provides another (imo much more controlled and high percentage) option for finishing uke.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-26-2007, 03:25 PM   #17
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

It's a nice transition from ude garami to jujigatame, but it's not sankyo. Sankyo hits uke's center, this is an elbow contol. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but it's not a good example of sankyo.

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Old 12-26-2007, 10:16 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Sankyo is there. :28-30 seconds on Youtube video.

The difference is in the hand placement. Roy keeps his left hand on his own wrist and slips his right hand down to the hand and applies torsional pressure inward along the same axis has sankyo.

In this example releasing the wrist and readjusting to the left hand on uke's wrist would cause uke to escape.

The point is that the body position and the line of torsion of uke is in sankyo position.

From an aikido standpoint, I'd say that because of uke being unable to escape or move because his body is slam up against the floor, that is does not allow for the direction of the energy up through the arm to the core, so essentially the torsional energy becomes a "joint lock". In aikijiujitsu terms it might be sankajo instead of sankyo.

It is a good example of sankyo position as a finishing or controlling pin, not a good example of off-balancing or uncentering of uke, which is typically how I would practice it in aikido.

Totally different dynamic than what you might see normally.

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Old 12-26-2007, 10:28 PM   #19
Walter Martindale
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Is a "Standard Kimura" the ude-hishige-juji-gateme, or is it the ude garami? Wasn't Kimura (the one I'm thinking of) a famous judoka?
WM
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Old 12-27-2007, 03:33 AM   #20
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

At :28-33 Second on the U-Tube video is a "Sankyo-esque" wrist torque which does nothing but increase the amount of pain Uke is in. It would not qualify as a sankyo for me. Put both of them in a vertical position, and that technique would not work as sankyo. What Roy is doing is good, it is a nice technique and a good finish but wrong use of the term "Sankyo".
Sankyo does not need to be applied to the wrist. It can be applied to the forearm, just as effectively. It is not the wrist manipulation that is important, it is the shoulder manipulation that is key. And in this particular example the shoulder was already locked and controlled by the "kimura", ude garami, whatever you want to call it.

Think about it.

In terms of content for you DVD, I would prefer you draw parrallels between some of the BJJ techniques you demonstrated in the Yosokan No Gi Trailer, and Aikido principles like Ikkyo or Nikkyo. There is potentially a Nikkyo comparison in the first ankle submission, but I don't know enough about BJJ to go any further than that.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:55 AM   #21
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sankyo is there. :28-30 seconds on Youtube video.

The difference is in the hand placement. Roy keeps his left hand on his own wrist and slips his right hand down to the hand and applies torsional pressure inward along the same axis has sankyo.
I have to disagree. There are a few things that I feel make this different from sankyo.

1) The control primarily affects the wrist and elbow, not the shoulder. When 'more' is applied, it does not spiral tension up through the bones of the arm to the torso, but rather moves the entire arm structure. By that I mean that when tori increases the pressure of the pin, he does so by moving the hand around uke, rather than increasing internal torque through the arm up into uke's spine thus moving uke around the pin. Yes I realize he's on the ground, but you still see the pin moving around uke rather than creating increased pressure up through the joints.

2) Sankyo works best if applied to the side or the front of uke. This traps their body structure, up through the arm (commutive lock) and down through the spine to the feet/base. This lock, is all behind uke's back, and the placement of the other arm up behind the humerus traps the pin in the arm (rather than running it back into the ground through uke's torso). If you attempt to do sankyo behind uke's back (when standing) they can just fold the arm up into the back, it basically neutralizes the control. There are some valid controls from there (you see these in police tactics since it puts the arms closer to where you want them for cuffing) but I wouldn't really consider those to be sankyo either.

Again, just to be entirely clear, my comments should be read as an attack on the terminology used here, not the quality of what's being demonstrated here.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:09 AM   #22
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

With due respect to all.

I admit to being somewhat amused by the hair splitting in terms of terminology. There is an aspect of sankyo in the pin -to me that's undeniable. Is it the same aspect or variation you'd use to take uke to the ground - no probably not. But grab 100 random aikidoka, put them in that position and crank and I bet 99 of them when asked will say "it felt kinda like sankyo".

While I think in terms of comparisons there are some submission similarities (I often talk about omoplata in terms of ikkyo to my ex aikido studends - and in fact am finding myself dong standard
ikkyo as a defensive tactic more and more) the real crossover imo is not footlocks that look like nikkyo or anything like that - it's in the flow of the roll.

We talk about two ends of the spectrum - adaptability and intent. Both of them have applications into aikido. In fact the more I get into some concepts like this via BJJ the more I wish I was still teaching Aikido as they would have been very useful teaching tools.

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Old 12-27-2007, 11:19 AM   #23
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Well, I think everyones right. What Chris is describing is a far better way to do sankyo...standing up. In fact I think it is thee best.
Many just don't get the connections right. There is a way in DR to to do what Chris is describing AND to torque the joint.
That said, commutive locking (tm) to a wresttler on the ground isn't always a good idea. Wrestlers, good wrestlers, have a highly developed sense of connected -though muscle driven- ground power. Thus feeding into their core is going to tap their power to feed back at ya. Hence, basing out his body-say with your legs or hips and torquing a small joint with your whole body leverage is the wiser choice on the ground
There are better ways to train to connect the body of course and that makes trying commutive locking; metacarpels, cross radius/ulna, humurous to shoulder to spine.. on guys who train this way even dicier. Overal, on the general public in standing up... Chris's way controls their whole body like nobodies business as the manipulated skeletal structure is weighted.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-27-2007 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:27 PM   #24
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

Good comments. I do think it is splitting hairs. Joseph, I think you are getting more into the philosophical dynamic of application (that is, using the torsion to affect center). I did identify that as a problem with this as uke is slam up against the ground and cannot escape out which limits Uke's ability to move, and nages ability to have the force travel back up through center.

Applied appropriately though, it still should follow the same axis of "KI" that is up through the arm, into center.

Which is why the few of us that are doing both BJJ and Aikido see the application of sankyo in this example.

My BJJ students will tend to focus the torsion on the wrist whereas, those with an aikido background or more advance in BJJ will tend to direct it more into center.

Again, splitting hairs.

When you are "Bridging" this gap it is important to show both sides (BJJ and AIkido) the similarities between the two practices so they can understand it from their own perspectives.

Is there pain invovled? Absolutely! Uke cannot move because of the pin on the ground.

Is it "not" aikido? Well I guess that depends on your philosophical perspective of where aikido begins and ends!

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Old 12-28-2007, 01:54 PM   #25
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Re: Sankyo Armlock

If you think this is splitting hairs, you need to get back into an aikido dojo and practice some more because your definition of aikido technique needs more depth. To any novice, uninitiate in aikido, if I twist the wrist clockwise it must be sankyo. But if you're going to tout some miraculous bridge between aikido and bjj, you need to speak with a meaningful definition of both sides of the equation and in this case it is lacking. The "aikido" portion of the technique would not qualify as the specified technique. It's a superficial, cosmetic add-on.

Additionally, my definition of Sankyo is in no-way philosophical. It is in every way practical. Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, Rokyu are all principles for using the extremities to control the center, not about causing pain in the wrist or elbow that just happens to occur. If you rely just on the pain to immobilize or move your uke, you are doomed to failure.

If you lack that particular depth of definition in your technique, whether on the aikido or bjj side, you're not going to be taken seriously by either side.

Just my two cents...

joe
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