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Old 12-11-2007, 01:25 PM   #1
Sam Turnage
 
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Cross-Training my kids?

Ok to me it is very important to me or fundamental to my kids leaning or education that they learn self-defense and or a marshal art for many reasons. To me it is just as important as learning to read and write. I have two kids as of now and they are 9 and 5 years old. Autumn is 9 and is an orange belt and my boy Sayer just started two months ago.

Now I really believe that Aikido is "the way", however, I have a little background in Judo and system 5 karate and I have realized that unlike other arts you can't just take it for 6 months to a year and be able to defend yourself pretty good it seems to me that it could take like 15 years or so before you could use Aikido very well for self defense. I also question how it works against other types of attacks from more or different skilled people such as a boxer with quick jabs or the type karate attack were one never fully commits to the atemi like quick guarded strikes and kicks etc and does not try to grab you.

So I have been thinking for some time now, that it might benefit my kids to cross train in something else. I am thinking of Judo or BJJ in part because of Aikido's ties to Judo and BJJ is also an evolved form of Judo that seams to be similar in the way your taking advantage of your opponents mistakes etc. and the fact that most scraps end up on the ground. So what I am asking is this:

What do you think about this? Is this a good idea or bad one and why?

Pros and cons to cross training?

Judo or BJJ and why? Both ..Judo early and BJJ when they are older maybe?

All input welcome thanks
Sam

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:37 PM   #2
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Aren't BJJ and Judo the same? with one being the art and the sport? BJJ is good for cardio and fitness and important for ground fighting and considered the last resort if the aikido or punching and kicking doesnt work out. If you looking for self defense for you kids, Id look into kickboxing/muay thai which actually teaches how to punch and kick, but thats just me. Aikido is supposedly and advanced martial art and kinda expected to be taken after a lower form. ex. karate taekwondo etc. If you are worried about your kids getting into real fights and needing to defend themselves, just go to youtube and search for video of teens/kids fighting and from that you can see real life scenarios. Choose the martial art that would best suit your needs.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:53 PM   #3
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Aren't BJJ and Judo the same? with one being the art and the sport?
Both are sports. Both are good for self defense.

I would not teach young children striking. Why? Because kids punch and kick when they are mad, the wrestle for fun, so grappling will be much more natural and they will be less likely to try to use it in some school yard tussle. Would you rather your son tackle the kid to the ground and hold him there till he calms down, or round kick him in the face? When a kid becomes older (teen years) then introduce him to striking. Plus because sparing is a must for striking to be effective, young children will not be able to train effective striking. They are simply not built to cope with getting hit.

Personally, I would go with judo. Throwing, falling, and pinning are all very important skills and much easier to learn when you are young. As they get older they will learn submissions and then they can decide to move into high school wrestling (something else I really would push for), a striking art, bjj, higher level judo competiton, or anything else (yes even aikido) and have a major skillset advantage over 'normal' humans. The judo focus is good for self defense (learning to throw people much bigger than you, learning pinning and top control, the agressive physical fitness, the high speed reactions, and escape from bottom position in groundwork). Also dangerous techniques like chokes, armbars, etc are not taught until the child is mentally able to cope with using such damaging techniques.

Young children in bjj are really just doing stylistic wrestling. They too do not usually learn submissions as it is too dangerous until they understand what can happen. So they start on their knees, and work for pins. So you can see why judo is better for a child. They starting standing, learn throws and pins and it is easier being young, made of rubber, and invincible. Learning to throw and fall as an adult is much harder.

- Don
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:05 PM   #4
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

what Don said.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:34 PM   #5
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

The instructor is WAY more important than the art. I would also train with the kids rather than "send" them. If cross training is good enough for your kids it should be good enough for you. I would hesitate to entrust my kids to another MA instructor unless I had personally trained with them.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:24 PM   #6
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Judo and BJJ the same, no

Not really, Judo came from jujitsu and BJJ came from Judo kind of the way that Aikido came to be.

Again thank you for any and all input but IMO I don't think that kickboxing/muay thai is right for my kids. First the kickboxing/muay thai is like a complete opposite of the way or teachings of Aikido I don't see how they would blend well. I must find something that improves or compliments there Aikido not something that will confuses the way they engage an adversary; I don't want them to rely on physical strength and its limitations as I do. There will always be someone bigger and stronger especially for Autumn, I want them to learn to use the enemy's own strength and aggression against them. Also like Dan said I don't think it is a good idea to teach kids to young to strike. My little 5 year old boy already thinks he's a Spartan warrior or something. Anyway when they get a little older I can teach them the basic strikes kicks and blocks. And when the time is right I will also teach them where and how to take out or kill an adversary. Right now though its hard enough just trying to teach them not to hit or push people or each other etc. Those of you with kids will now what I mean.

And in my experience I was in many scraps as a kid and teen and always won, if there is a winner in a fight. And almost every time I would take him down or flip him then pin him in some way (head lock, judo hold, rear naked chock etc.). If I use my Karate at all it was the blocking. I once stopped an attack from a Black belt in TKD. He tried a snap kick to my nuts; I broke his foot with a simple block.

I believe and will try to teach my kids that fighting is not a game, and should be avoided at all costs try to talk your way out or walk away etc. But when they must I want them to take the opponent out or down, not box them.

Funny you suggested wrestling I was planning on seeing if Sayer would like to do wrestling when the time comes too.

Should I not have them doing both Judo and Aikido at the same time?

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:34 PM   #7
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
The instructor is WAY more important than the art. I would also train with the kids rather than "send" them. If cross training is good enough for your kids it should be good enough for you. I would hesitate to entrust my kids to another MA instructor unless I had personally trained with them.
Good point Ricky thanks

I take Aikido with them now but working in something like Judo too might be real hard both in time and money.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:07 PM   #8
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

my own personal experience of doing judo and aikido concurrently (albeit only for a short period of time) was that the footwork was different enough to interfere with each other. Which was one of the reasons I preferred BJJ

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:22 PM   #9
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

My son is 7. I study BJJ and Aikido. My BJJ professor in Brazil who has studied it his whole life advised me to have my son study Judo first. So I am.

I think at this age it is better simply to learn the balance, tumbling, kuzushi aspects and not so much the self defense stuff.

I have been working with my kids since they were infants in this stuff. Things such as balancing them on my feet, hands, having them roll around on me, explore fulcrums, center etc.

My son perfected the clinch and seat belt before he started kindergarten. He will do it instinctual now. If he gets on your back, he puts hooks in by habit. He doesn't even know he is going it!

The point is, that any of these arts with a good instructor that will teach them really, really good basics is what is needed. Not punching, kicking, fighitng...just tumbling, understanding their bodies and themselves and the relationship to others.

I think Judo typically has decent kids programs that are mature and well rounded.

Lots of schools are teaching wrestling and grappling these days too! At NAGA you can watch these little guys go for it! It is amazing.

Lots of room and ways to get them going!

Good luck!

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Old 12-11-2007, 08:10 PM   #10
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Personally, I would not put my kids in more than one martial art at a time. Kids need to focus, splitting that focus will only slow their progress. Not to mention kids take what adults say to heart. Imagine what would happen if the aikido coach said something about how judo is easily defeated, or if the judo man said judo is the best art. Conflicting role models will lead to confusion, even if it is not done on purpose.

- Don
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:28 AM   #11
Marc Abrams
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

My son started Shotokan karate under a true Japanese master (8th dan and direct student of Okano Sensei) when he was in first grade. The main emphasis is on proper form in kata rather than sparring. My son is now in the 7th grade and will be taking his nidan exam sometime next year. My son started training under me in Aikido this past year.

I agree with the idea of studying one art until you reach a certain level and age. I think that it is very important that a child learns proper striking and defense.

My son has been studying Aikido with me for almost one year now. He has learned to maintain a relaxed center and move from that point during kumite. He has always excelled in that area (granted, I have always worked with him in teaching him what really works in kumite and fighting), but it is reaching new levels. His Aikido is solid (passed his 8th kyu test with flying colors). I am really liking what I am seeing in his budo development.

Currently, I am working with him on changing from percussive punching to energy punching. When he used his energy punches, the effects are remarkable.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:17 AM   #12
Michael Douglas
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Sam Turnage wrote: View Post
Funny you suggested wrestling I was planning on seeing if Sayer would like to do wrestling when the time comes too.

Should I not have them doing both Judo and Aikido at the same time?
I would recommend wrestling, matched with sprinting and strength training of a light sort. Judo my second choice. BJJ third choice.
I would NOT recommend aikido until they are adult and good at standing and ground grappling, shooting, and weapon offense. What I mean is, don't teach aikido until they can defend themselves competently.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:38 AM   #13
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

LOL….thanks again for all you input but, I think I am at this point more unsure or confused than ever.

I guess what I am looking for is the best way to train my children or provide them with a strong platform. I am well aware that if I start them early in life in anything or something is better than nothing. For instance Grass Valley Aikiki has a good children’s program and Sensei is willing to start kids younger than most and she is very good with them too, as are the older teacher students. If fact Sensei has a couple of students 18 – 19 that have been trying only in Aikido since about 9 years old one is a black belt and I think that they could defend themselves very well. I have started my kids even younger and I know that it would also work in Judo or Karate too. This is more than most kids will have but I want more still. And I was hoping that I could find a even better way to train them. Did O Sensei or have any of the Aikido masters addressed this issue (talked about or documented what they thought would work the best)etc.? One of the cool or unusual things about Aikido is that we are so close to the teachings of O Sensei because it was invented or conceived not that long ago in comparison to other MA forms, some were derived so long ago that it is hard for us to comprehend.

At this point I am still leaning or my brain is telling me the BJJ is the answer for us because I think that it can be studied without causing harm or confusion to the kids or there Aikido. There is now another Aikido dojo in town and one of the instructors has a son that is training there and he holds a brown belt I think in BJJ I will talk to the son about this. Also when I get the chance I am going to visit a BJJ in town to talk and check it out. I need to find out more info.

I would also like to share that event how I feel Aikido is the best way and that’s what I what my kids to learn I never intended for them to start in Aikido. Based on my experience and my gut feelings I really feel that even given the fact that I had much more training in Karate over the years and as a older boy the small amount of Judo (Only about one year to the level of Green Belt) I had at age 7, I think helped me the most. I don’t know how or why, it just did. So when my oldest turned about 61/2 I started looking I called the only Judo dojo in town and talked to the sensei. I told him what I was looking for and why and that I wanted my kids to start ASAP as far as there age. He told me that he doesn’t take kids until the age of 9 and I also got the impression that he felt that Judo was the best and only way. He told me that both his son and daughter had been or was the national Champaign and he proceeded to tell me that because I did not compete in tournaments I did not learn real Judo. My instructor did not push the tournament thing it was taught from a self defense point of view. He was not going to bend on the 9 years old thing and I just didn’t get a good feeling from him.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:06 AM   #14
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I would recommend wrestling, matched with sprinting and strength training of a light sort. Judo my second choice. BJJ third choice.
I would NOT recommend aikido until they are adult and good at standing and ground grappling, shooting, and weapon offense. What I mean is, don't teach aikido until they can defend themselves competently.
Shooting for sure and Autumn is about ready for that too...

No Aikido until they learn somthing first.....I don't know about that...Sensei has some girls that are very good, confident etc. I some pervert or muger tries something with one of them they will be sorry. Do you mean that they will be open to attack as a kid until they get to that level? That is a consern.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:02 PM   #15
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

I don't see any information her on how your kids feel about training at all.Put them in a program that they have not expressed desire to participate in, they will not participate.
And if you DO train with your kids, keep the training in the dojo and remember that you are not their teacher. .

Q
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:08 PM   #16
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote: View Post
I don't see any information her on how your kids feel about training at all.Put them in a program that they have not expressed desire to participate in, they will not participate.
And if you DO train with your kids, keep the training in the dojo and remember that you are not their teacher. .
Well the first part of your post is very true it is not a factor in how I chose to parent my children. FYI my son loves and begged me to let him take or go to Aikido I finally said I would what Sensei has to say about it. He also wants to take Karate, and loves everything fighting or wrestling etc. He really likes to play fight or wrestle his dad. Autumn on the other hand if she had her way would not go most of the time she just having fun and sometimes that really shows but when she wants to be there or she gets more serious she is very good and I am very proud of her and she is just a kid.

Like I said before learning a MA to me is an essential part of my kid's education as important as learning to read and write. It is a matter of survival and self preservation maybe more but nothing less. So there is a very big difference in say forcing your kids to play sports or a sport that they don't like or want to and making them study hand to hand combat or self defense.

If your kid didn't feel like going to school what would you say?
If your kid didn't want to brush his teeth what would you say?
Most kids don't really like vegetables so why even try right?

I say who is the parent? What does a kid know about what he needs to eat or study to succeed in life? Or what is right, or what is wrong? Or what is fact and what is fiction?

You are the parent; you are not his or her friend!

It is your duty to love, guide and teach them. When they are an adult then they can do what they want to. I will stop my rant now but I could go on and on about this.

I have my way of dealing with this anyway, I award Autumn by taking her shooting or to sushi she love sushi and or just spending extra time with her, she is a daddy girl after all.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:56 PM   #17
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Sam wrote:

Quote:
There is now another Aikido dojo in town and one of the instructors has a son that is training there and he holds a brown belt I think in BJJ I will talk to the son about this. Also when I get the chance I am going to visit a BJJ in town to talk and check it out. I need to find out more info.
If his son is under 18 it is doubtful that he holds a brown belt in BJJ under the IBBJF. They do not recognize or promote to Brown Belt until 18. In fact you cannot get even a Blue belt until 16. They have a completely different system for kids under 16.

http://www.ibjjf.org/graduation.htm

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Old 12-13-2007, 09:01 AM   #18
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sam wrote:

If his son is under 18 it is doubtful that he holds a brown belt in BJJ under the IBBJF. They do not recognize or promote to Brown Belt until 18. In fact you cannot get even a Blue belt until 16. They have a completely different system for kids under 16.

http://www.ibjjf.org/graduation.htm
I though he was 18 or 19 but he is now 21. My bad it is not BJJ but another type SJJ. I talked to him about it last night a little. He had taken Aikido for 6 years or so before he started taking JJ and he feels that it has only sharpened his Aikido skills and made him a more confident fighter.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

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Old 12-13-2007, 10:09 AM   #19
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Again I wanted them to do Judo first but it just wasn't meant to be. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but, I think that or it seems that most people think you need to take another MA or learn some other arts before you study Aikido. This is mainly IMO because of these facts. First off, Aikido was born this way in that O Sensei had to learn other arts such as JJ in order to improve it and etc. It seams logical the one should learn to defend and attack in they normal way that most people will before you learn the more advance or evolved way of using ones anger, strength, and aggression against them. People that have had some MA training or experience usually do better or seem to learn Aikido faster than those that have not for obvious reasons. I can't imagine what it would be like to try and learn Aikido at my age without the basic MA background that I have. I would be so lost. Aikido is difficult and slow to learn. People want to see quick results and especially younger people want to learn to strike. People usually need to grow up a bit before they learn that someday they will run into someone bigger and stronger then they are and that sometimes you don't want to hurt someone just control him, before they can see how cool this stuff is.

Maybe it is good or ok to learn other skills later too. At least I feel good that my kids are doing something in a good program with a good Sensei.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

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Old 12-13-2007, 12:02 PM   #20
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

You now seem to be steering your thoughts towards aikido, or at least mentioning japanese martial arts as the only choices.
Wrestling could be better with its emphasis on strength and toughness, judo second.

As for why I suggested getting your kids a competent defence before aikido, well, that's the way ueshiba took his best students as far as I recall from the articles. Also, the skills and strengths which I feel might allow aikido to be effective defence in a wide range of assault scenarios aren't easily developed until adulthood.

What is SJJ? Scottish JiuJitsu? Spanish?

You said this ;
Quote:
Sensei has some girls that are very good, confident etc.
Does this mean they are competent at defending themselves?
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:52 PM   #21
Sam Turnage
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

You said this ; Does this mean they are competent at defending themselves?[/quote]

Yes most definitely I feel that they would be able to defend themselves very well.

I am well aware of the cons to training in only Aikido for self defense but I am also aware that it is an incredibly evolved art and concept and one of the most effective or Dangerous MA in the world. All MA have pros and cons.

They were taught from a young age when they were little sponges (there is a lot to be said about this). They are advance students (one is a Black belt the other is black belt level) why cant they?

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

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Old 12-13-2007, 03:01 PM   #22
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Sam wrote:

Quote:
I though he was 18 or 19 but he is now 21. My bad it is not BJJ but another type SJJ. I talked to him about it last night a little. He had taken Aikido for 6 years or so before he started taking JJ and he feels that it has only sharpened his Aikido skills and made him a more confident fighter.
Yes, I concur with his experiences...it has served to help me as well.

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Old 12-13-2007, 03:12 PM   #23
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Sam wrote:

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Again I wanted them to do Judo first but it just wasn't meant to be. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but, I think that or it seems that most people think you need to take another MA or learn some other arts before you study Aikido
Be careful with your logic. It is a tricky area that is dependent on many factors.

Aikido can be a complex and frustrating art to learn. I think that you can make great strides in aikido by studying other arts, especially for youngsters. Grappling arts really help with understanding core and center.

Naturally studying ANY kinestic/physical practice will improve your aikido and put you ahead of someone who does not do that or does no athletic activities at all.

I think it is bad logic to conclude that it is better to study something else other than aikido to improve your aikido.

Again it depends on your goals.

I have studied with people that have only studied aikido for 10 or more years. They are much better at aikido and many other things martially than I am with the breadth of experience and perspective that I have gained through cross training. They are not at a loss for NOT having cross trained or developed a base in something else...from an Aikido standpoint.

However, if you want to have a BREADTH of experience and perspective...it might make more sense to spend time in other things that teach center/balance/core and then do Aikido.

Absolutely...I think it stands to reason it would advance you in aikido to some degree.

Does not mean that studying aikido alone as your soul practice is wrong or anything.

It depends on many factors as any thing in education!

The learning process is realitively asynchronous. I think modern society likes to regiment us on a timeline that says "by this time you should be here or you are not doing well". It makes the system efficient, but not necessarily good for the student!

I home school my son. He learns asynchronously. He might be very interested in math at 7...and not so much into writing. So we let him explore his passion for math and get really good. So he is not up to speed on writing like others his age.

What is the difference if at 18 everything balances out?

You will typically find that those that explored their passions in a certain area are happier, more well rounded, and excel at what ever they do.

So, I don't think it matters if you pursue aikido, judo, or BJJ and at what time you do it at in the process...as long as you do something and you have good instruction!

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Old 12-14-2007, 01:33 PM   #24
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Re: Training Kids

Kevin thanks for all your help and for being such a good parent too. One of the problems with our country is the fact that the people that should not be having kids, are the ones have 5 kids and the ones that should be or would be good parents don't have any. Also anyone that quotes Gen. Patton is my kind of guy.

I do understand how important it is that people be passionate or really want to learn or be there. I guess I thought that like reading and writing I could provide a foundation for them and then let them study or pick something that they really want to do.

Autumn is ok I think, she really like weapons and she wants to do gymnastics I see no harm and it should be good so I just need to find a way to make it happen.

My little boy Sayer however, right now is ok but I worry that he will get board with Aikido. He wants to learn to kick and punch, wrestle etc. I have two kids that are not the same age and are different genders and people.

On the subject of learning center/balance etc. I do agree that learning how to fall, center/balance etc. is the most important thing right now. But I feel that they are learning that at our dojo. And with Aikido the way we are taught.

Regards
Sam

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:33 PM   #25
Sam Turnage
 
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Dojo: Grass Valley Aikiki
Location: Grass Valley, CA
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
You now seem to be steering your thoughts towards aikido, or at least mentioning japanese martial arts as the only choices.
Wrestling could be better with its emphasis on strength and toughness, judo second.
I am sorry Michael I thought I typed up a response last night and posted it but something didn't work apparently. So I will try again. First of all and this is coming from someone that was one of the strongest and best athletes around when I was in school I am looking to certain types of MA because I now what was most efficient or how my instinct tolled me to fight and I have a very strong opinion based off of my experiences and those of friends of mine that were in the Special Forces that have enforced my belief of the best ways two engage and take out or down or down and out an adversary. Every CC Combat fighting system that I have see teaches techniques from arts like Aikido, JJ, Judo etc. The difference is there intent is to kill or take someone out of the fight. The other thing is that they always simplify the system by only teaching a few techniques this I would assume makes it easier to learn and more instinctive.

Don't get me wrong when I was a kid I was lifting weights when the other kids were still playing with GI Joes. Strength and tuffness is an important thing in a warrior but far from everything. I found that in football from me the bigger they were the harder they fell. Learning or just somehow knowing when to capitalize on an opening and ether gain control or strike in key areas and ways are much better tools then muscle. Not to mention Mr. Glock

I think that a lot of people are talking about Wrestling, BJJ, and MT or kickboxing because of what they see on tv in a MMA cage fight. Now these proven MMA skills may be a little more useful than say learning only Aikido for real world self defense but a MMA cage fight is nothing like what happens in a real world self defense situation in the parking lot or a escalating argument that turns into a fight etc. So different, think about it.

"If we are wise, let us perpare for the worst."

George Washington
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