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Old 04-01-2008, 11:44 AM   #176
Cephallus
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
a 5'10'', 210 lb junkie that has been popping all night?
Did you mean 110 lbs?

Because no 5'10" junkie I ever knew stayed at 210lbs for very long.

I watched the video twice, looking for aiki. To me it looks, honestly, like it was mostly a wrestling/strength contest...and the big guy, predictably, dominated each encounter.

I have to agree that there are some basic knife skills missing with both the attacker and the defender. I keep seeing the defender trying to go head-down, straight-in, with his arms up, like it's an average bar brawl. Unless he's purposefully trying to let the attacker stab his vital organs, that's probably a bad idea.

Otherwise, I enjoy the vids that people post, including this one, if for no other reason than to see how other people are training. Whether or not I'd want to train like this personally, I always learn something from the vids, and the discussions here. So thanks!
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:42 PM   #177
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

I proudly join the ranks of the clueless and see no real function/purpose for this type of training. The attacker and defender were simply unrealistic.

William's point about training with real knife fighters is well taken. A good knife fighter will carve you up like a turkey on the platter before you knew what hit you. Depending upon the nature of the cut or stab, a person's ability to continue to function can significantly diminish in a short period of time.

I would add Systema knife work and defense to the list of more realistic approaches towards training.

I was taught a long time ago, never enter into a knife fight unless you are willing to get cut. If you get cut, you can easily die. With that type of attitude, you are better off bringing a gun to a knife fight, or minimizing the amount of time and contact when trying to defend against a blade. Other than that, you can get lost in fantasy about what your training really can't do, which can result in a mortality, most likely your own!

Just My Clueless Two Cents.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:10 PM   #178
Aikibu
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

The Basics....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClXpUCObab4

All forms of Silat blend very well with Aikido IMO. Pay attention to the drill towrds the end of this clip for a hint at possible Tanto Randori Chris....

William Hazen
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #179
Michael Varin
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

I don't know about the 10 mistakes that martial artists make in a knife fight, but the biggest mistake martial artists make in general is to theorize and intellectualize without testing their hypotheses under pressure.

Too many people are resting on their laurels. The funny thing is most frequently they don't have any laurels in the first place.

The video William linked to reveals a serious misunderstanding. This is a fully cooperative practice. There is no resistance involved. The "attacker's" objective is to allow the technique to be applied. This has no more relevance to what was happening in Chris's video than traditional aikdo ki no nagare.

If you are not aware of the difference that results from the attacker changing his objective to actually succeeding with his attack, I highly recommend exposing yourself to that.

Here's the guy (long pants) from William's video in a much more intense situation. Wonder why he doesn't make it look so easy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr5Vc...eature=related

In the drill that Chris showed, the only restriction was that no striking was allowed. The knife can be used in any way and the defender can respond in any way.

A quick search on Youtube produced the following videos. I didn't selectively post these; they were just the first few that came up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2qa9FO7v7Q

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDa1BCJPHvg&NR=1

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J3HR2O2m068

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1s0eyOC5iLc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fePrku5ifHg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ReF_ywwL0&NR=1

Nothing here looks like stylized aikido, or kali or silat or systema for that matter.

The beautiful thing is that digital cameras are cheap. Youtube makes it very easy to post videos. You can literally put raw footage online within minutes of shooting it.

Tanto dori is part of aikido. What is the best way to train to face a knife while empty-handed? Let's see the video.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:52 PM   #180
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Michael, correct nothing looks like anything.

These videos confirm my personal beliefs about knifes in general.

A few comments. A few individuals could have had better martial awareness.

There is a split second before distance is closed. What do you do?

Several had the ability to grab objects or go to a safer place around them, yet they were still processing the fact that they were being attacked and did the ole "oh my god!".

I saw most of them resort to the same basic strategy that your uke did in Chris' video.

So what and how do you train for this?

Sometimes you can't.

I think anything short of doning some high speed gear like Blauer suits and having some good highly qualified instructors is about the only way to do this the right way. Uke and nage must have situations that most closely involve the scenarios and conditions that they might face.

That is, working at a counter in the store. Walking down the street. Having distance already closed on you in a crowd.

Many times you will find that there simply is not much you can do.

Chasing a guy around the dojo in a gi over and over and having him try and grab a knife is not the way I would train my personnel, If you train this way...you will default to this type of strategy, much like most did in these videos.

Sorry, but I am not seeing it.

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Old 04-01-2008, 11:10 PM   #181
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I don't know about the 10 mistakes that martial artists make in a knife fight, but the biggest mistake martial artists make in general is to theorize and intellectualize without testing their hypotheses under pressure.
Survived a few encounters with knives one with a dude who knew his business

Quote:
Too many people are resting on their laurels. The funny thing is most frequently they don't have any laurels in the first place.
No...What is funny is why folks like yourself continue to post? I know you're one of Chris's Posse...I admire your attempts to defend him but what Chris did is stupid...He posts a video... does not set a criteria for it... and then whines when no one can read his mind...

Quote:
The video William linked to reveals a serious misunderstanding. This is a fully cooperative practice. There is no resistance involved. The "attacker's" objective is to allow the technique to be applied. This has no more relevance to what was happening in Chris's video than traditional aikdo ki no nagare.
LOL Like you know the differance. ...I stated it was basic practice and point folks to the exercise at the end....So help me what is to misunderstand/ Greg is one of the top Kilat teachers in the country.

Quote:
If you are not aware of the difference that results from the attacker changing his objective to actually succeeding with his attack, I highly recommend exposing yourself to that.
So your vid demonstrating this "exposure" is where?

Quote:
Here's the guy (long pants) from William's video in a much more intense situation. Wonder why he doesn't make it look so easy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr5Vc...eature=related
I wonder how much experiance you have to actually interpret what you saw?

Quote:
In the drill that Chris showed, the only restriction was that no striking was allowed. The knife can be used in any way and the defender can respond in any way.
Stupid is as stupid does...If there are restrictions like no striking then your training is weak...Striking IS A PART of KNIFE FIGHTING

Quote:
Nothing here looks like stylized aikido, or kali or silat or systema for that matter.

The beautiful thing is that digital cameras are cheap. Youtube makes it very easy to post videos. You can literally put raw footage online within minutes of shooting it.

Tanto dori is part of aikido. What is the best way to train to face a knife while empty-handed? Let's see the video.
So I guess what your saying is we can just throw the baby out with the bathwater LOL

In the future when you and Chris want constructive feedback Please just ask for it instead of throwing a hissy fit when you post a vid and whine when no one can read your "bright" minds....

Thank you so much.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-01-2008 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:14 PM   #182
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

We have to clear up many things if we are going to talk about this.

First this is not a cooperative or compliant exorcise. So this means if one person is better then another, no matter how good the first person gets, he will not win. Like tennis, I could be a very good tennis player, have good technique, and even be a capable tennis coach, but I’m not going to win wimbleton.

When you see my students against me, I am simply bigger and better then them. That doesn't make their training worse, it makes it better.

Second, the purpose of the practice is not to have the unarmed guy get stuck and stabbed. We do allow, and even try to make that happen as the knifer. This is what makes the practice difficult, and worthwhile.

We are trying to make one explosive move in, control the weapon and gain control of the situation. This is achieved many times on the clip. If the unarmed guy takes the weapon away, he then begins his own attack, this is the ideal, and again this happens several times.

You cannot stay at a distance with someone with a knife (if you’re going to engage). The knifer has range, and power on his side. Staying away from him just increases his odds of victory.

Third, yes it would be better to run, shoot them, use a weapon yourself, or what have you. But that is not the purpose of the practice. This practice is geared toward one guy being unarmed and one guy with a knife, and the unarmed guy has no choice but to engage.

Fourth we are training a martial art system, so yes we wear gi’s and we train on a mat in a dojo. No one in our school has any illusions of taking someone on the street with a knife. After training like this, your illusions of being successful with your techniques while unarmed facing a knife fall away, because you see first hand how hard it is.

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Old 04-01-2008, 11:24 PM   #183
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

And another thing...This is from Chris's own bio on your website

Quote:
Just about ready to give up on Aikido as an actual usable martial art, I happened to enter a full contact stick fighting tournament with the Dog brothers. The Dog brothers are a group of full contact stick fighters living in southern california. They have regular "meetings of the pack" where they get together and fight full contact with sticks; and no rules. The only safety equipment used is a fencing helmet, and gloves. They use rattan sticks to keep bone breaking to a minimum but it is none the less very intense and very dangerous. I fought with a jo, and to my amazement, the techniques of Aikido flowed from me. I was very capable and able, and all the training I received worked like a charm. I could in fact FEEL what I have now come to understand as AIKI. I could feel my opponents intentions, and also his openings.
So I ask why does not Chris teach this the way he was taught?

Very strange.

William Hazen
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:27 PM   #184
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

William,
Why don't we have a Randori, you and I.

Santa monica isn't far for me, I'll come to you and we can go one round you with the knife, one round me with the knife, we can add striking if you like. We'll video the whole thing and that will solve all this quickly.

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Old 04-01-2008, 11:29 PM   #185
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
We have to clear up many things if we are going to talk about this.
Chris,

If you had posted this with your original vid post then you would have saved us all allot of bs...

Please consider this in the future.

respectfully,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-01-2008 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:31 PM   #186
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
William,
Why don't we have a Randori, you and I.

Santa monica isn't far for me, I'll come to you and we can go one round you with the knife, one round me with the knife, we can add striking if you like. We'll video the whole thing and that will solve all this quickly.
Sounds good to me....I would love to learn from you.

William Hazen
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:40 PM   #187
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
First this is not a cooperative or compliant exorcise.
Chris Hein
Quote:
This is a fully cooperative practice.
Michael Varin
Gentlemen,

Need I say any more.....get your feces together!

You are seriously mistaken about what you are doing, you are going to get someone hurt. Close the garage and find a real dojo.

I bet you bought the x-ray glasses and thought they were broken in transit....
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #188
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

You need to go back and read those posts again.

He is talking about Williams video and I am talking about our video.

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Old 04-01-2008, 11:59 PM   #189
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Mr. Hein,

I apologize for misquoting you and Mr Varin.

I will just sit here and laugh my ass off.

Mickey
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:13 AM   #190
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Gentlemen,

Chris and I have spoken and I have invited him to come and teach a class and also cleared the air with regard to my posts.

Iwama and Nishio Ryu styles are different since our primary focus is weapons Ken, Bokken, Jo, Tanto, and Atemi Waza. I feel what Chris has to offer is valid enough to learn from and in that spirit we will welcome him and hope all of us come away better Aikidoka for the experiance.

William Hazen
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:42 AM   #191
Michael Varin
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
William Hazen wrote:
I know you're one of Chris's Posse.
Wow. Did you figure that out on your own?

From what I can tell you were the one throwing a hissy fit, but it looks like Chris came up with the best solution for that. Didn't he?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Mr. Hein,

I apologize for misquoting you and Mr Varin.

I will just sit here and laugh my ass off.
Be my guest…after you get your foot out of your mouth. And then try to follow the conversation.

I know it's tough for you "shodothugs." You guys can't even figure out what to do with your tanto after you've been grabbed.

Really, we don't need to let this degrade to name calling. Please, post a video of your tanto randori, or other relevant drills you practice and enlighten us.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:08 AM   #192
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Mr Varin,

I apologized for misquoting you, and I am truly sorry that I did not make the fifteen minute window to edit my post....that does not mean that I in any way, shape or form have changed my opinion of your training methods.

Your videos speak for themselves...And again, you are the one seeking affirmation in what you do, not I.

While you believe that you have upped your training tempo, it falls short of reality based training, as you are claiming.

Observation and perception, everyone sees things differently. Unfortunately, our observation does not compliment your perception of tanto randori.

Mickey
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:16 AM   #193
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

They don't show a whole lot, but if you listen and look carefully you will get a basic idea of where they are coming from. Using walls, weapons, and objects, plus the clinch.

The thing I like is that they discuss the problem, define the situations, the risk, and then (what the don't show completely), work on solving the problem through risk reduction.

They even discuss the "sewing machine" etc, what most people default to...

When the do attempt to control the knife, I see a much more different approach then what I saw in Chris' video.

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Old 04-02-2008, 06:38 AM   #194
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Some good basic advice on building realitiy training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7bo...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuA17...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeCW...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWWl7...eature=related

Not necessarily knife fighting...but when you are training in knife defenses...you need to consider these things.

Training intelligently is very important.

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Old 04-02-2008, 07:29 AM   #195
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Nothing here looks like stylized aikido, or kali or silat or systema for that matter.
Wouldn't expect it to. No fight that was any where near closely matched does that I've ever seen. I've even seen good boxers humiliated, simply because someone was determined not to play their game. Fortunately, that was not my point, or the point of most people commenting.

We are not asking for clips that "look like aikido", or any other martial art/sport. We are looking for the reasoning behind the exercises, and the building blocks that lead up to the exercises, to train habits that will hold under pressure. To me, at least, that would be one of the main points of using stressfull, non-cooperative training. I simply see none of this, either because I'm too dull, or because it isn't there.

No harm, no foul...until you become insulting about it. And I'm not interested in posting vids of myself doing the same things you are doing...for the same reasons. Because I know my limitations, and the limitations of my training so far, and see no need to parade them in front of the madding crowd.

By the way, cheers to William and Chris for meeting up. That's a good thing...too much gets lost in the digital divide. Please let us know what you learn.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:40 AM   #196
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Hi folks,

Please watch your tone in your postings. It's seemingly getting pretty personal here.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 04-02-2008, 07:54 AM   #197
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Chris,

If you don't mind.

What is your experience facing real blades in "t3h street" for real?. How many times?. How did you solved the situation?. How your training methods reflects your personal experience about SD against blade wielding opponents?

I'm asking because I only had 2 encounters with knife wielding assailtants and what I see in the clips doesn't match with my personal experience.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 04-02-2008 at 07:57 AM.

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Old 04-02-2008, 09:14 AM   #198
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Wow. Did you figure that out on your own?

From what I can tell you were the one throwing a hissy fit, but it looks like Chris came up with the best solution for that. Didn't he?
What solution would that be??? Hopefully you'll show up too and come to realize that having a such large chip on your shoulder is detrimental to the spirit of Aikido...

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-02-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:19 AM   #199
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Wouldn't expect it to. No fight that was any where near closely matched does that I've ever seen. I've even seen good boxers humiliated, simply because someone was determined not to play their game. Fortunately, that was not my point, or the point of most people commenting.

We are not asking for clips that "look like aikido", or any other martial art/sport. We are looking for the reasoning behind the exercises, and the building blocks that lead up to the exercises, to train habits that will hold under pressure. To me, at least, that would be one of the main points of using stressfull, non-cooperative training. I simply see none of this, either because I'm too dull, or because it isn't there.

No harm, no foul...until you become insulting about it. And I'm not interested in posting vids of myself doing the same things you are doing...for the same reasons. Because I know my limitations, and the limitations of my training so far, and see no need to parade them in front of the madding crowd.

By the way, cheers to William and Chris for meeting up. That's a good thing...too much gets lost in the digital divide. Please let us know what you learn.

Best,
Ron
Took the words right out of my mouth Ron and said it much better than I could.

No worries about letting everyone know how it all turns out Sometimes the best way to understand folks is to look them in the eye... give them a warm handshake...and truely welcome them as Aiki Brothers & Sisters in the spirit of Love and Harmony.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-02-2008 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:58 AM   #200
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Took the words right out of my mouth Ron and said it much better than I could.
Nah...I just had better timing! another minute you'd have said it, and you have much more experience than I to back it up with.

I'm just waiting to see what David V. has to share... (yeah, I see ya lurking bud!)

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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