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Old 03-18-2008, 06:54 AM   #151
mickeygelum
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
What is the purpose of the tanto? It still seems that it has no significant use in your training.
I agree....good taisabaki/kuzushi drills are the wy to truly effect good technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oae_SvwxKs0

While there is a clear mismatch of ability, most adults do not put this much effort into thier training.

Mickey
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:55 AM   #152
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Our focus is not on tanto dori, but on struggle with a weapon. With out the object as a focal point in the hand, the is no need to use wrist control the way Aikido techniques do.

You see so many Aikido techniques because of the focus on an object. We have practices that focus on Tanto dori, the problem with those is you see a lot more stabbing/cutting and a lot less throwing controlling technique. Right now MY focus is on the traditional techniques found in the Aikido syllabus, and not just knife technique.

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Old 03-18-2008, 10:23 AM   #153
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Right now MY focus is on the traditional techniques found in the Aikido syllabus, and not just knife technique.
I'd say you're focusing in a small subset of modified (watered down) techniques.

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Old 03-18-2008, 05:41 PM   #154
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'd say you're focusing in a small subset of modified (watered down) techniques.
In this video you see the whole of the iwama techniqual syllabus, save, yonkyo and gokyo.

If by small subset you mean:

Ikkyo
Nikyo
Sankyo
Rokyo

Irimi nage
Kokyu nage
Juji nage
Shiho nage
Kaiten nage
Koshi nage
Kotegaishi

Then yes you're right.

All this footage is from one class session, and 44 min of footage. All done non cooperatively. I'm pleased with their progress, any teacher would be.

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Old 03-18-2008, 07:04 PM   #155
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
In this video you see the whole of the iwama techniqual syllabus, save, yonkyo and gokyo.
Not counting the about 2/3 of iwama curriculum called buki waza you left the various otoshi, ude kime, tenchi and other very basic techniques like shomen uchi, yokomen uchi and tsuki, You know, the old atemi waza which makes iwama style techniques sound and reliable ones.

The lack of atemi in the techniques is watering down iwama style and the lack of atemi and blade awareness in your students is dangerous for them. It instills bad habits.

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Then yes you're right.
You know I am.

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Old 03-18-2008, 08:08 PM   #156
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not counting the about 2/3 of iwama curriculum called buki waza you left the various otoshi, ude kime, tenchi and other very basic techniques like shomen uchi, yokomen uchi and tsuki, You know, the old atemi waza which makes iwama style techniques sound and reliable ones.

The lack of atemi in the techniques is watering down iwama style and the lack of atemi and blade awareness in your students is dangerous for them. It instills bad habits.

You know I am.
I've never seen an Iwama practicioner do a noncooperative practice. Most Iwama don't even do unscripted jiyuwaza.

I was refuring to the taijitsu techniques, but you're correct. I stand corrected.

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Old 03-19-2008, 09:03 PM   #157
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I think this is an interesting and innovative exploration. My feeling is that you are probably not ready to lead this kind of thing yet (I wouldn't be either). Others have made the point better so enough said.

I will offer some constructive criticism on one of the other videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJdVUdLSgg0
26 - 30 - the hanmi handachi ryotetori shihonage
I have found that it is a LOT more effective against progressive resistance to start moving forward with the outside knee, and to stand up with a second step with the inside knee. Try it. When done that way it's like a hydrolic machine. YMMV

I've been working out with Dan Harden lately. Watching that video of Tohei sensei again (I haven't thought about it in a long time) I honeslty believe that Dan would have been able to handle "Howard" better. And I'm training very hard because I would like very much to use what he's teaching me to try every single one of these type of drills once I get his teachings down a bit more. So please keep them up.

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:54 AM   #158
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

Once more around the block...
IMO, you aren't giving the knife sufficient "reality". It looks like you're just playing around with a tanto trying to find some aikido technique to do. A knife is death. Treat it as such. It's a razor blade waiting to nick an artery and it doesn't take much to accomplish that. I don't see any regards to those facts in your videos. Mostly I see a general randori-type practice, except someone has a tanto in their hand -- which isn't being utilized in much of a realistic way.

Just some examples of what a knife can do:

Cut. Yeah, everyone knows this. But, not only can a knife can cut on the initial attack, but also on the retreat. So, even if the knife misses flesh initially, it only takes a flick of the wrist to turn or move the edge such that it can cut on the way out.

Pick. Use the tip to just pick off some flesh. This is very quick, doesn't have to be targeted to specific points, and can be a moral buster to nage with enough successful picks. Picks can take out small bits of skin but also larger chunks. Pick the right spot (pun intended) and you get to an artery.

Core. A nasty little cut that truly can do lethal damage. Picture a blade going in and then is swept in an arc. Sort of like coring an apple. This move under the armpit is death. No saving throw.

Puncture. You just push the knife into the body as far as you can and leave it there. No matter how nage moves, he/she will be continuously cut. Try defending an uke when you have a knife stuck inside you.

Flay. For imagery. Take a knife, place it at an angle just inside the elbow, and then fillet the skin all the way down to the wrist. Can be done anywhere, really. You either get a piece of skin flapping in the wind, or you completely cut it out. Either way, major blood and demoralizing.

And all that doesn't even go into what to cut, how to cut, where to cut. A knife is death. It should be treated as such. IMO, your video doesn't do that.

All my opinion, of course.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:03 AM   #159
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

This is not tanto dori. If you'd like to see how we do tanto dori, there is a video up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

This is a kaeshi waza video. The wooden knife in the hand is just a "weapon", a thing you are struggling over. It's just a focal point. We do have practices where we treat it like a knife.

Rob, if I'm not the guy to do it, who is? I've never met him. If he's out there he doesn't want anyone to know, cause he's not doing it. From the growth I see in my students, I might not be so bad.

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Old 03-20-2008, 10:26 AM   #160
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This is not tanto dori. If you'd like to see how we do tanto dori, there is a video up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

This is a kaeshi waza video. The wooden knife in the hand is just a "weapon", a thing you are struggling over. It's just a focal point. We do have practices where we treat it like a knife.
Hi Chris,
As I said, this is all my opinion, but whenever you introduce the tanto, it is a knife. It is lethality. Using a "wooden knife" in the hand just as a "thing" for kaeshi waza is not treating the knife realistically. You could have used a flashlight instead in your training session -- that's about as useful as the knife was. Not meant to demean, but to illustrate how I viewed the usage of the knife in the vid.

Everyone has their own training. Just thought I'd share my opinion on it since you posted the vid.

Mark
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:38 PM   #161
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

That's cool, I understand your point.

We have more tanto's in the dojo then flashlights. Maybe I'll paint one pink so there is no confusion.

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Old 03-20-2008, 05:50 PM   #162
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This is not tanto dori. If you'd like to see how we do tanto dori, there is a video up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s28eQuw9oI

This is a kaeshi waza video. The wooden knife in the hand is just a "weapon", a thing you are struggling over. It's just a focal point. We do have practices where we treat it like a knife.

Rob, if I'm not the guy to do it, who is? I've never met him. If he's out there he doesn't want anyone to know, cause he's not doing it. From the growth I see in my students, I might not be so bad.
Hey Bud - you asked for feedback. I watched. I commented. I had nothing to say directly constructive other than to support what all of the many other folks have said regarding shu ha ri etc. And sometimes it is _helpful_ to hear a message you are not necessarily ready to hear - several times.

Also, I went out of my way to find something very concrete about your kihon waza because I can certainly speak to that. I truly hope it helps. There is a lesson in understanding shihonage - when it makes better sense to thrust while improving/maintaining your body alignment and integrity before you cut or lift to eventually cut (which your partner is doing). You may just abstract that principle into your innovative exercise - or not. It's like underwear, it all depends on you.

I also think you should hook up with David if this is your thing. I like his approach very much.

My opinion is of course that the best way to train is the way *I* train. I would imagine EVERYONE thinks that or they would opt for the better method they are aware of..

Seriously good luck. I really do appreciate your innovation.
Rob
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:55 PM   #163
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Thanks Rob.

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Old 03-27-2008, 04:56 AM   #164
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Interesting!!!
Thaks Rob!!!

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Old 03-30-2008, 01:26 AM   #165
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New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Another one for you to froth about the mouth over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-igiACl_BQ

Enjoy!

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Old 03-30-2008, 04:26 AM   #166
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

i dont quite get it each defender died about 100 times each, or am i missing the point
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:43 PM   #167
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Quote:
Justin Thomas wrote: View Post
i dont quite get it each defender died about 100 times each, or am i missing the point
Well if you thought fighting agaist a knifer would go smoothly, then I'd say you got the point quite clearly.

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Old 03-30-2008, 09:40 PM   #168
Aikibu
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Not bad I vote to make the 70's song "You make me feel like dancing let's dance the night away"... the sound track.

I posted the here about 6 months ago on the ten basic mistakes Martial Artists make in a knife fight and it's good to get a glimpse of what one may look like so kudos to Chris and his students...

Make a note of the fact a good knife fighter will strike with his guard hand more often than not to enter Uke's space for a knife strike.

Cross training in Kali Silat or Eskrima does wonders for ones Tanto Dori too.

William Hazen
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:04 AM   #169
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

I see the basic exercise is driving home the fact that you will get stabbed over and over again.

Why is it that knife fights always occur in a square area about the size of tatami, no exit, no other people, walls are not used, furniture etc?

The only issue I had was once failure hit, uke stuck to the same strategy...enter and grab the knife.

If the point was to show uke how dangerous it was to invoke that strategy, then good job.

If Uke didn't get that teaching point and will continue to try and improve that strategy...then I'd say he missed the point.

Anyway, it is good to see a high degree of stress put in the environment.

I kept wanting to see uke drive nage through the wall...but that would have been expensive!

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Old 04-01-2008, 09:14 AM   #170
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Sorry, but I continue to fail to see the point of this type of vid. If you want to learn knife work, folks have given good suggestions for it. If you want to learn standup grappling, there are places and arts devoted to that. If you want to do stand up gruppling with weapons, without formulaic kata, a combination of the first two suggestions would do wonders, or an art like silat, which already does both.

What I see is an attempt to use low percentage techniques in a high stress environment, which is fine for occational practice in an aikido dojo, but I see very little aikido actually being trained in these vids.

Best,
Ron (probably I'm just dense, or too traditional, or something)

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Old 04-01-2008, 10:03 AM   #171
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Thanks for your honesty.

I think if any of you would bother to try this drill and video it we could actually have a conversation about it. As it stands none of you really have any foundation to understand this, and/or you don't have any video up for me to talk about what is happening differnly.

I have realized that most of you are not ready for the kind of work we are doing. thank you for your time.

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Old 04-01-2008, 10:26 AM   #172
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Thanks for your honesty.

I think if any of you would bother to try this drill and video it we could actually have a conversation about it. As it stands none of you really have any foundation to understand this, and/or you don't have any video up for me to talk about what is happening differnly.

I have realized that most of you are not ready for the kind of work we are doing. thank you for your time.
Your Welcome...

William Hazen
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:39 AM   #173
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Hey Chris,

Here's a few thoughts and questions:

What's the rule set?

I'm surprised that there's not more striking.

Is the guy with the knife lookign to contraol the interactiion or just inflict damage?

You look like you are the most experienced guy in the room. What are your thoughts on the Shu-Ha-Ri pardigm and how it fits into your training (or not), particularly this exercise?

Thanks
Jeremy

Last edited by Jeremy Hulley : 04-01-2008 at 10:40 AM. Reason: diction

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Old 04-01-2008, 11:16 AM   #174
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Quote:
Sorry, but I continue to fail to see the point of this type of vid. If you want to learn knife work, folks have given good suggestions for it. If you want to learn standup grappling, there are places and arts devoted to that. If you want to do stand up gruppling with weapons, without formulaic kata, a combination of the first two suggestions would do wonders, or an art like silat, which already does both.

What I see is an attempt to use low percentage techniques in a high stress environment, which is fine for occational practice in an aikido dojo, but I see very little aikido actually being trained in these vids.

Ron Tisdale
Mr. Tisdale....Your observation is correct, and your advice is well thought out.

Quote:
The only issue I had was once failure hit, uke stuck to the same strategy...enter and grab the knife.

If the point was to show uke how dangerous it was to invoke that strategy, then good job.

If Uke didn't get that teaching point and will continue to try and improve that strategy...then I'd say he missed the point.

Kevin Leavitt
Mr. Leavitt...The problem solving process is not beeing utilized.
There is no offline entry, the focus is the weapon, all aiki principles have been disregarded. They continued to repeat the same actions. You are correct, they missed the point.

Quote:
I think if any of you would bother to try this drill and video it we could actually have a conversation about it. As it stands none of you really have any foundation to understand this, and/or you don't have any video up for me to talk about what is happening differnly.

I have realized that most of you are not ready for the kind of work we are doing. thank you for your time.
Mr. Hein,

So much for being tactful...

Quote:
As it stands none of you really have any foundation to understand this
Have you ever been in a real knife fight? I have. Have you ever had to really defend your self from an edged,stabbing, thrusting weapon?
I have. Have you ever been stabbed with any of the aforementioned items? I have.

Do you know what feels like to have a hypodermic syringe thrust through your hand as you are trying to subdue a 5'10'', 210 lb junkie that has been popping all night? I do. I train for this type of assault.

You asked to have your video(s) critiqued...and then you slam good advice, here's my take.

I am a Shodothug, knives are our toys...your drill is a exercise of inefficiency and wasted energy. Taisabaki (body evasion) and kuzushi (balance breaking) are the drills you need. Tegatana Dosa, Shodokan style, will help you accomplish your goal.
There are several Shodokan dojos near you, I would suggest you go visit one of them and observe and/or participate.
A little tanto randori will be good for you, if not for yourself, go for your students sake.

Ps......Leave the hakama at home...

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:37 AM   #175
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Re: New Central Valley Aikido Video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Thanks for your honesty.
You are welcome. Followed by:

Quote:
As it stands none of you really have any foundation to understand this, and/or you don't have any video up for me to talk about what is happening differnly.
Well, shucks, Homer, tell me all about my foundations! I think I was polite in what I said, and left room for me being clueless. So...elucidate me, please. Politely. Or don't post vids that nobody gets. Or be prepared for us not to get them. Or something.

Quote:
I have realized that most of you are not ready for the kind of work we are doing. thank you for your time.
Dude, get over yourself.

Best,
Ron

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