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Old 12-17-2007, 11:27 PM   #101
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post

Wouldn't it be great, in this day and age, if we all attempted this drill, filmed ourselves, posted those clips, and then talked about what we felt or did not feel? How cool would that be!
...

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Old 12-18-2007, 12:53 AM   #102
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Funny I hadn't planned to put this up, but it appeared magically on my computer a few hours ago, and I thought it fit in nicely with this discussion.

Tohei made a non-cooperative video once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg

I would also like to encourage those who have strong feelings about this subject but are not voicing them, to speak up...

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Old 12-18-2007, 12:58 AM   #103
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Funny I hadn't planned to put this up, but it appeared magically on my computer a few hours ago, and I thought it fit in nicely with this discussion.

Tohei made a non-cooperative video once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg

I would also like to encourage those who have strong feelings about this subject but are not voicing them, to speak up...
It is not a fair fight.... Tohei has T3H M4GiC P4NTs (TM).

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:13 AM   #104
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I think this is what I was trying to discuss, that one can look at this stuff and say exactly what you said, "I don't see the basic skills that are learned in fundamental practice being explored and applied to this more intense context." In other words, my point was that rather than looking at these alternative ways of training and going with our first or learned impression, we should, because of their very nature, expect them to look strange to us - different from what we normally do and expect via our training.
I'm comiing from a very different place - I have been delving into this stuff for years, and am even known for being "inovative" in some circles....

Quote:
In that same sense, one has to realize that whenever one is devising training drills, one is in essence moving both further and closer to realistic training (in relation to Kihon Waza - which is always idealistic and thus non-realistic). They are moving further in that the very nature of the drill, of any drill, is to work on "x" or "y" and not on the totality of reality.
Sure. But for me, if the drill ignores certain fundamentals, like "safety" i.e., is one actually in a safe position when doing what one is working on, then it will likely instill bad habits. That's why, for me, kihon waza is actually first and foremost when experimenting. But - I think I may look at what kihon waza actually is, very differently.

Quote:
So, in my first video, we are working on Irimi, that's it. But, we are doing it under conditions not usually practiced in kihon waza (e.g. multiple strikes, fakes and feints, counters, measuring strikes, contact, unrelenting offenses, etc.). The "throw," which is really just a kuzushi, is not the end goal.
Again, I see it differently. For me, kihon waza can be practiced under Any conditions, and should be. I see that I am referring to something different though. I am talking about, as I said before, things like position, angles, covering the strike zones, and I'll add here eliminating openings - things like that. If those things are not present, what one practices after that is moot, to me. And this is only the Simple aspect of kihom waza, there's a lot more, on several levels....

Quote:
It is simply that which marks that one has fully entered under the new conditions. Why do this? The first motivation is this: Because entering under these conditions is initially a lot harder than entering under the conditions set up by kihon waza. (Note: In my opinion this is because one has not yet learned what needs to be learned about Irimi.)
That's my point - learn that "fully" first, then the rest is not only "easier" but also the usefullness - or not - of the "drill" will become clear.

Quote:
So, as a challenge, there is still lots to learn from, and what you will learn will inevitably go back to your kihon waza applications - which, more than the "throw" (what I called kuzushi), is the common point to all of this (since we are trying to investigate Aikido).
We come from two different places I think. I use the word, and concept, of kuzushi All the time in my teaching. How I define it, I didn't really see much in the clips. I saw mostly throwing. That's just me. I also didn't see much "tsukuri" which is a big part of "my" kihon waza. Again, I define kuzushi differently though. To me, it is not the breaking of one's balance, it is the "allowing for the loss of balance" and that's very different.

Quote:
As to, "When does it cease to become AIkido and become just what a person feels may work for them in an attack?" I can't say I really entertain these questions too much. If I do, I certainly don't see them as leading to anything DANGEROUS (as you have written). Danger for me is a guy with an assault rifle that just robbed me at the mall and saw my sheriff's badge in my wallet, and I have my two kids with me and my wife is at the Mrs. Field's buying cooking, having no idea what's going on. That's dangerous.
Again, we differ greatly here. It''s dangerous to me to teach someone something in a martial context that without a lot of other considerations, could get them into trouble. I'm not characterizing you this way, I don't know nearly enough about your training, just what I saw in the few clips, which isn't enough to tell much, in the long run. But I have impressions from them.

Quote:
Folks exploring arts and becoming artists is a creative process, one that hurts no one and no thing but for those folks and things that are looking to set up museums, ones where they don't have to change the exhibits. Still, even they survive. In other words, I do have to say that I'm against this notion of preservation for preservation sake. To be human and to practice art is to live and to live is to learn and to learn is to change.
As I said, I am one of the biggest "experimentors" around, but in certain terms. I have basic criteria that must be fulfilled for me to consider experimentation. Since I have that reference, I can pretty quickly tell what isn't acceptable to me in my own process.

Quote:
That said, and as Ron has noted elsewhere in this thread, my end results still look like Aikido.
To me, not always. That is not meant as any insult. But I have different eyes. And I tend to look at Aikido differently than most people, or at least, many.

Quote:
if you are truly serious about Peace/Love and/or about surviving combative experiences, you are going to travel along the same lines that Osensei did, and no matter how individualized your expression may be, it's going to be related and folks are going to be able to note that. So, on the one hand, I don't fear change, not out to preserve for the sake of preservation, and I feel that anyone serious about this stuff is going to follow along the lines of the Founder. Heck, if I didn't believe that, I would be contradicting myself were I to suggest that Osensei realized some universal truths that are common to all mankind, etc. And I do believe that Osensei realized some universal truths.
As do I.

Quote:
Your other points I think are perfectly sound. You are right, there is a whole lot of stuff that goes with Aiki that happens beyond, even previous to, an actual tactical application. And, these things are indeed very relative to one's tactical achievements. These things have to be studied too. They are just not all studied here in this drill. Why? Because it's still hard to do Irimi under these conditions set forth, and for me, if you can't do Irimi under these conditions, then you may in the end ask too much of these other kinds of considerations that you have listed - and asking too much of anything isn't, for me, Aiki.
But what good is irimi if you get tagged and kicked several times on the way. To me, that's Not irimi, not my definition anyway. Now, I'm not saying that practicing that is not important - it is - but for me, more to have the experience of getting tagged, and seeing that if one doesn't address that first, the rest is moot.

Quote:
In the end, it's a choice - how one trains. I feel each person has to make this choice. But, the one that makes a choice after they have tried this stuff, even if he/she then chooses to call this "wasted time," is always going to be much better off than the person that outright dismisses it as either something they already do, can do, or have done in the same breath that they are dismissing it for being different from how they practice or how they were taught to practice. In the end, this was my main point.
Yes, better off than the person who outright dismisses it. But I still think that it's important to evaluate drills and such in terms of basics first, then the rest comes. But again, I think I am looking at what is basic, very differently than most.

Quote:
Wouldn't be great, in this day and age, if we all attempted this drill, filmed ourselves, posted those clips, and then talked about what we felt or did not feel? How cool would that be!
Done things like this many times over the years, not on film. I very quickly decided that for me, if I turned my attention to how to apply my basic skills to this kind of situation first, the rest would be much more valuable to me. Turns out I was right - for me at least. Can't really say much about anyone else, in the end, although I tend to....

Quote:
thanks for your comments Larry - lots of good points. Sorry if I didn't get to address them all.
Same here David.

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:20 AM   #105
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Funny I hadn't planned to put this up, but it appeared magically on my computer a few hours ago, and I thought it fit in nicely with this discussion.

Tohei made a non-cooperative video once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg
Yes but there are a couple of things to consider. One is, the word is that O Sensei told him basically to not do anything that could possibly hurt the guy, as it was not all that long after the war, and the guy was an American. That being said, he got pissed off at the end and actually choked the guy out. They edited that part out, but you can see the choke applied and the guy's arm go limp. O Sensei was apparently really pissed about that....

Anyway - the biggest thing to consider is this. If you watch carefully, to me you can see that Tohei ignores all his basic training, and ends up in difficult positions doing pretty rotten technique - Until - at the end, he goes back to basics, executes a beautiful irimi/kokyu nage, with proper tsukuri and kuzushi, and the guy goes right down and into a compromised position.

To me, this clip proves my point quite well.

Larry Novick
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:02 AM   #106
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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IWe come from two different places I think. I use the word, and concept, of kuzushi All the time in my teaching. How I define it, I didn't really see much in the clips. I saw mostly throwing. That's just me. I also didn't see much "tsukuri" which is a big part of "my" kihon waza. Again, I define kuzushi differently though. To me, it is not the breaking of one's balance, it is the "allowing for the loss of balance" and that's very different.
You sound like Gunji Koizumi;
"It is impossible to over-emphasise the importance of Tsukuri, for it is estimated to form 70 percent in affecting a throw. Tsukuri in a throw is like courting in love; without it, the result will be a disaster."
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:38 AM   #107
Amir Krause
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

David,

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Here Sean, believe it or not, is studying Irimi:
http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/latwone.html

Here I am studying Irimi:
http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...ermediate.html
Referring to these videos, I liked them.

I have one suggestion regarding the first for a more efficient way of teaching I have been taught. At the first video, the success ratio is around 5-10%, most people do not learn this way, at least not efficiently. The way I am taught, you should have lowered the requirements at that point (best solution -- both move slower).
As for the second video, the success rate is around the efficient area. Yet, a teacher would have probably pointed out to you, you are still late in your Irimi, even though the technique is working (I can say this with ease since I have the same problem).

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Here is the thing...
When you learn a basic curriculum, sooner or later, if you are serious about yourself and your training, you are going to ask questions regarding two very related things: You are going to ask questions on what are the basics, what are they really; and you are going to ask questions on what is beyond the basics (which the word "basics" implies - that there is something beyond them). If you are of the nature and/or lifestyle where these questions are framed from within a martial paradigm, you are inevitably going to seek and do a type of training that is related to the development of basics, or the refinement of basics, in a martial sense but you are, unlike before you asked these kinds of questions, no longer going to settle upon training devices/drills that gave you the basics and the questions in the first place. There's going to be a departure of sorts - because there has to be.
I almost agree, because, I had asked similar questions. However, I had and still have a teacher who was good enough and experienced enough, to point the way to get the answers, and make sure I got them correctly, and all from within the style I am learning, and from other styles he had learned. Further, that teacher and the Shihan he invited and I had trained with, had more than once opened my eyes to multiple other aspects of the same training I was doing for hundreds and thousands of time before, and lead me to inquire in further depth.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
In other words, once you gain a context (i.e. kihon waza), if you want to expand or develop that context, to answer questions you have on it, you have to move beyond that context to get the answers, as the context only gave you the questions. This is why, in my experience, whenever you see someone simply repeating the same training regimen that was introduced to them, over and over, for decades, you also see someone that has no questions and needs no answers. When this happens, training preoccupations are centered upon things like fame, rank, title, etc., and these things, rather than martial viability, are used to demonstrate to oneself the "validity" of their practice.
To this I strongly disagree. Please do not put thoughts in the minds of others. Particularly blaming them in "having no questions" or being "centered upon things like fame, rank, title, etc", belittling others does not make you right.

We practice the same training regimen again and again, then some more, and then again. We keep almost all our time of the training in an upward expending spiral going around the same three pillars -- Tai-Sabaki, Kata and Randori.
It does not mean no questions, we have them all the time, including technical questions -- "why do this? And not that?" or "Which circumstances would be suited to do that and when is another variation better?", methodical questions -- "when should we teach\learn that?".
Nor does it mean a lack of interrogation and exploration, veteran\advanced students are instructed to do it, our Sensei is showing us this way, instructing and leading us forward.
My Sensei would not be afraid to explain to us some technique variation is only good for a certain purpose, such as mostly methodical and not martial; or requiring God given timing and being nearly impossible otherwise. He will sometimes let us experiment and fail prior to giving us the answer, to make us learn the hard way around. The latter learning process is normally reserved to the higher ranks, who are supposed to know the mechanics of said technique at least fairly well, after a few thousands of repetitions.

At the end, I may repeat the same technique and settings a lot, but when I do it, I am not doing the same things, and my focus is changing. At first I bothered with where my feet and hands go, then I started t learn about controlling body movement, later the focus changed to being out fo the attack\power lines, then I focused on Kuzushi, some focus was given to combining Atemi, and then to smoothing my movement, then on sensing the other pressures and creating sensitivity, and shifting the focus to notice my fingers and toes pointing directions throughout the technique, then on feeling his intent and then again to more sophisticated wrist maneuvering, and again to my own movement to make it softer and blend it with all the inputs and elements I now got, and then my own waist and centering control improved so I had to re-integrate my understanding of the same technique once again responding to it. This same process is repeated countless times, in varying orders, to all the techniques I learn and practice as part of the Kata pillar.
Additional progress is maintained thorough the Tai-Sabaki pillar, doing the same 8 movement sets again and again, combining and breaking them. This way I slowly realize new meanings to the same movements, and learn to adjust the movement to current intent. Thus I improve my control over my body and learn more harmonious movement -- to be reintroduced into the other pillars.
And then there is the Randori pillar, in our style and dojo, Randori means free-play, with each side attacking as they wish (typically with strikes and as the level rises, one gets combinations and kicks too) when they wish, without designating one side as Tori\Nage and the other as Uke, rather letting the roles change constantly. Advanced students would also use counter techniques.
The first video Chris had shown reminds me of very bad Randori, done by beginner students. In the sense that the level of resistance employed was too large for the students to overcome given their ability to act correctly. This is a common teaching and learning mistake -- since it creates wrong feedback and does not encourage one to learn.

I do not think your actions are wrong, dangerous or misguided, when you are putting yourself through more difficult tests. The same does not hold for your students. You can and should experiment, examine yourself against higher barriers and learn how to pass well above them. But, your being at a certain step, does not put your students in the same place. My teacher keeps hammering us to only teach things we understand (when replacing him), and not to experiment on beginning students.

Amir
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:49 AM   #108
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
You sound like Gunji Koizumi;
"It is impossible to over-emphasise the importance of Tsukuri, for it is estimated to form 70 percent in affecting a throw. Tsukuri in a throw is like courting in love; without it, the result will be a disaster."
Well, I had never heard of him, but he's got a heck of a name.... and of course, I'm not surprised he was a judoka, as that word is used more in that art.

Larry Novick
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:50 AM   #109
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Larry,

If we paid you to come to our school and do a seminar. Could we focus on this drill? You could have my guys attack you, and you'll show us how to do it properly.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 12-18-2007 at 10:01 AM.

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Old 12-18-2007, 10:42 AM   #110
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Larry,

If we paid you to come to our school and do a seminar. Could we focus on this drill? You could have my guys attack you, and you'll show us how to do it properly.
Well, my immediate answer is no, but here's why.

First, to me, that is an exercise in knife fighting, although it seems unacknowledged as such. I don't teach knife fighting, although I have some experience in it. That's one of my primary "criticisms" of the exercise - if one wants to learn to knife fight effectively, I always suggest an expert in Filipino arts. That's their thing, and they're very good at it. To me, if you had used a magic marker to see where the knife wounds would be "inflicted" you would have good evidence as to what was effective or not etc. at that level, at least. That's how those exercises are often done in that realm.

Second, the way the offer is characterized is difficult for me. I don't really know where you are coming from, and given this whole thread, that's not surprising, given the inherent difficulty in these kinds of exchanges. That's not a criticism of you at all, simply that to me, these forums and exchanges, in my mind, are too removed to really get to know someone. I have tried to couch my criticisms in the least negative way I could, successfully or not, and the way things have ended up, I don't feel that we have the kind of communication or trust that it would take for me to do something like that, if indeed the offer was serious. And that sense of communication, connection, and trust would have to be there for me.

Third, the way I approach things in Aikido can be different at times than "mainstream" whatever that means, and if I go to teach somewhere, which I do on occasion, mostly to Boulder, I have done a lot of preparatory work with the people so how I'm doing things makes sense. It's like I'm teaching music, but with some subtle variations on what to others are basic scales, such that one would have to address that first before the rest would make enough sense to practice.

Fourth, in randori practice in-and-of-itself, there are fundamental things/goals to my approach (taught to me) like doing one's best to never back up, not going into the "crowd but always trying to stay to the "outside" of the group, never taking to much time with one person such that another can mount a stable attack, having a proactive attitude, not reactive.... etc.... that I always stress practicing first.

But - these are second to something so fundamental to my approach that we call "kinesthetic invisibility" that without that training first, the rest is, to some degree, moot. Not that you asked about my randori anyway, but, as I understood it, that particular exercise in the video that you refer to as randori with a knife.

So my initial sense is that I don't think I would be open to it at this time, and at this point.

Last edited by Aiki1 : 12-18-2007 at 10:55 AM.

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Old 12-18-2007, 10:50 AM   #111
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Just speaking as an outsider to this last exchange, I'd have to say that Larry has taken a tough post, and really made a positive thing out of it.

I'd also have to say that IF I were in Chris's position, I would now ask permission to come by Larry's dojo and train some, forging a relationship, and then re-extend the initial offer in a somewhat different manner, and forum.

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-18-2007, 10:58 AM   #112
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Just speaking as an outsider to this last exchange, I'd have to say that Larry has taken a tough post, and really made a positive thing out of it.

I'd also have to say that IF I were in Chris's position, I would now ask permission to come by Larry's dojo and train some, forging a relationship, and then re-extend the initial offer in a somewhat different manner, and forum.

Best,
Ron
Thanks Ron, it wasn't easy to articulate all that. And generally speaking, people are always welcome to come by if they're in the LA area.

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Old 12-18-2007, 11:41 AM   #113
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I'd also have to say that IF I were in Chris's position, I would now ask permission to come by Larry's dojo and train some, forging a relationship, and then re-extend the initial offer in a somewhat different manner, and forum.

Best,
Ron
Naw, that's for pansies, DOJO ARASHI BABY!!! IT'S ON!!!

(that was humor, just in case anyone missed it)

The fact that Larry and I seem to be in agreement in this thread should tell you something, that doesn't seem to happen pretty often on this forum.

I should point out that some of my responses to this thread were not direct reactions to this particular video. I was making them in context of the other videos on Chris' site and his many comments over the years. In particular his posts after playing with the Dog Brothers (to summarize, and feel free to correct me if I get this wrong, that Aikido is actually a weapon art disguised as an open hand art and that the techniques and principles of Aikido are best manifest when using a weapon). I'm looking at the whole of that when I've made comments in this thread, as I feel that if Chris were really onto something, we would see it more obviously manifest in this video.

Finally, just to be clear, I'm not inherently against experimentation, that the basis for Aikido is in fact weapon arts, or that Aiki can be applied to weapon training to get a much better understanding of what Aiki/Aikido is/could be.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:43 AM   #114
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

It's funny, but sometimes the people who take etiquette really seriously stand out. It brings to mind people like Peter Goldsbury...someone who is always polite no matter who he is talking to.

That extra effort can go a long way on these forums, and you can still ask tough questions, and make tough statements. But like Peter and Larry, just do it politely. Still learning from folks like that myself.

The end result, most importantly, is that you can pretty much go anywhere and train with anyone...they already have a good impression of you.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:49 AM   #115
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

That was a creditably kindly response to Chris' invitation, very well written!
I'm so glad your first point was about the unsuitability of the drill itself for non-knife-trained subjects.
I'd like to stress that in my small opinion, the drill of one knife-holder being wrestled by three unarmed attackers without striking ... is one that should not be practiced. There are no positives to this drill, in my opinion.

How about a new drill instead?
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:55 AM   #116
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Funny I hadn't planned to put this up, but it appeared magically on my computer a few hours ago, and I thought it fit in nicely with this discussion.

Tohei made a non-cooperative video once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg

I would also like to encourage those who have strong feelings about this subject but are not voicing them, to speak up...
I'd like to comment on this vid.
At the end, the tall stiff guy is so tired he goes down to an arm-drag, lies in side-control without struggling, sleeps to a one-sided collar choke. Judo! At that point in the 'bout' ANYONE could have done that! If Ueshiba was angry, he had good cause, he probably wanted to see some aikido.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:12 PM   #117
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I'd like to comment on this vid.
At the end, the tall stiff guy is so tired he goes down to an arm-drag, lies in side-control without struggling, sleeps to a one-sided collar choke. Judo! At that point in the 'bout' ANYONE could have done that! If Ueshiba was angry, he had good cause, he probably wanted to see some aikido.
And yet, the guy in the video probably had as much *or more* influence over what "Aikido" actually looks like today than OSensei did. After all, it was Tohei who was out doing demos, teaching the uchideshi at hombu and traveling the world over spreading the word.

Personally I love this video, because, as Chris points out, stuff gets messy when you're dealing with someone who doesn't know how or doesn't want to fall down. It's not surprising that it ended up looking a lot like judo. First, Tohei had a good background in judo (yondan?) and the rules of the encounter (no striking, no dangerous kansetsu) are a lot like the rules for a judo encounter. The rules that govern an encounter, will always shape that encounter. It's important to remember the framework for this encounter too. This isn't an exercise to teach anyone Aikido, it's a silly demo for a news reel.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:36 PM   #118
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
This isn't an exercise to teach anyone Aikido, it's a silly demo for a news reel....
Against an unknown that you aren't allowed to hurt...let alone really throw. No locks, no throws, no strikes, but you still have to "handle" him. And be gracefull, too!

Yeah, right.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:40 PM   #119
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I like this clip. even in the beginning at least you can see aiki principal. And the announcer even said a few key things..."He remains perfectly balanced, he doesn't become the attacker...." Even in this I still see Aikido. Mostly Kokyu Nage. Which is my point.

No matter how real you train, you should still be able to see aiki principal.

Thanks for posting. I read somewhere that O'sensei got pissed at Tohei for attacking a guy I believe a Russian dude in a similar exercise. Apparently the guys challenged the Kobukan first and they told them not to grab at an aikidoka. So the guy just danced around and Tohei moved in on him.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:49 PM   #120
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
David,

I do not think your actions are wrong, dangerous or misguided, when you are putting yourself through more difficult tests. The same does not hold for your students. You can and should experiment, examine yourself against higher barriers and learn how to pass well above them. But, your being at a certain step, does not put your students in the same place. My teacher keeps hammering us to only teach things we understand (when replacing him), and not to experiment on beginning students.

Amir
EXACTLY!!!!
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:40 PM   #121
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
But I think the problem with most people who train in aikido is the lack of understanding BUNKAI.
The term "bunkai" can be interpreted in many ways. Could you please clarify?

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
As far as your quote "Aikido just doesn't seem to have anything to do with empty-hand grappling."

If I understand you correctly and that is to say that there is no answer to these methods in aikido...I would have to disagree with you..."Respectfully of course" I believe that aikido has an answer to any attack, art, situation that might arise. (emphasis added)
You characterize my statement accurately. I began by saying, "Aikido is clearly not good for empty-handed grappling, so what else might it have been designed for?" You then suggested that I take a step back in that logical chain: "Actually, aikido is good for empty-handed grappling." This is an intriguing possibility. However, without using a very liberal definition of "bunkai" (e.g. "The bunkai of iriminage is a double-leg takedown! Aikidoka are great at grappling."), I'm not seeing any of these "answers to any attack, art, [or] situation" that you describe.

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
I find that when cross-training I have mixed success. Most of the time when my training doesn't fare well is when I am thinking about techniques to use. But when relaxed and not being afraid of takedowns etc. Technique just happens. I train with those guys to find out which techniques work better for me and which ones don't. (emphasis added)
Which aikido techniques work well for you in empty-handed grappling? What do the other grapplers think about this? Are they surprised when you reliably throw them or tap them out with techniques they have never imagined? Do they ask you to teach them, and then go on to employ these techniques successfully themselves? (As my tone suggests, yes, I am skeptical.)

An excellent response would be to post up video of technique "just happening" for you in empty-handed grappling (with a competent grappler). This would be truly fascinating to observe.

Alternately, could you just let us know with whom you practice, and what their training background is?

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 12-18-2007 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:49 PM   #122
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

If you want Larry, we could to the same practice except without the knife. This would be the same as a standard Aikido multiple attacker randori, except the attackers will come in a non cooperative manner.

Striking can be included if you want, but when done in a non cooperative fashion against a mob, I don’t really think it’s safe.

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Old 12-18-2007, 06:59 PM   #123
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you want Larry, we could to the same practice except without the knife. This would be the same as a standard Aikido multiple attacker randori, except the attackers will come in a non cooperative manner.

Striking can be included if you want, but when done in a non cooperative fashion against a mob, I don't really think it's safe.
Several things:

One - Now you're talking about something else entirely. I'd have to explore that first on several different levels. I'm not even inclined to do that at this point.

Two - By way of explanation, there are quite a few other things in my post that were relevant to this "invitation."

Three - There's an old saying - When dining with wolves, it is moot if one is guest, or entree.

Four - Given that, reminiscent of the scene from The Seven Samurai, I don't feel inclined to "go through that door."

If you don't know the reference, the rest of my answer would be "because someone is always waiting behind it." In essence, this goes back to the rest of my original post.

Last edited by Aiki1 : 12-18-2007 at 07:09 PM.

Larry Novick
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:59 PM   #124
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I'm coming from a very different place...
Yes, I had a feeling we were probably going to be working with different terms, understandings, contexts, etc. No worries. I enjoyed your post nonetheless. Thank you for the reply.

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:00 AM   #125
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
... I read somewhere that O'sensei got pissed at Tohei for attacking a guy I believe a Russian dude in a similar exercise. Apparently the guys challenged the Kobukan first and they told them not to grab at an aikidoka. So the guy just danced around and Tohei moved in on him.
That was from an interview with Chiba Sensei:

Quote:
What about Master Koichi Tohei of the Ki Society?

Yes, Tohei Sensei is very good. He is small but very powerful. I saw him take a challenge from a wrestler once.

Sumotori or Western style?

Western style. Two brothers - Germans I think from Argentina - and they were enormous! They had to bend over to avoid hitting their heads on the gate-post of the Hombu. This was the only time that O'Sensei accepted a challenge for Hombu. These people were travelling the world with a film crew and were challenging different Martial Arts masters. They had been to the Kodokan (Judo HQ), but the Judo men had not been able to handle them. So they challenged the Aikido Hombu. When they arrived I met them and brought them in. Inside the dojo were O'Sensei Kisshomaru Sensei, and Tohei Sensei who was then the Chief Instructor to the Aikido Foundation. O'Sensei nominated Tohei to go first, as he was so strong. So the wrestler crouched in a low posture with his hands out stretched in front of him, and just moved in a circle around Tohei Sensei for a long time. Tohei Sensei was very relaxed and just followed his movement, and eventually cornered him. Just as the wrestler began to move Tohei leapt upon him, threw him to the floor, and bounced his head for him. Tohei Sensei then pinned him down with his hand blade extension, which, as you may have heard, is very powerful. This guy could not move, and his brother declined to try Tohei for himself, so that was that. Apparently at the Kodokan the Judo men advised them not to make a grab for an Aikido Master. That is why he circled Tohei Sensei for so long.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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