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Old 12-10-2007, 09:57 AM   #26
Ketsan
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Are you saying getting hit with a bare fist is less damaging to the recipient then getting hit with a gloved fist?

If I took a hammer and hit you on the side of the head, then took the same hammer and put a boxing glove on it and hit you on the side of the head, which would do the most damage?

David
You can hit harder with your wrists wraped, taped up and protected than you can bare fisted. Well you can hit just as hard with less risk of breaking your own hands and wrists.
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:45 AM   #27
Roman Kremianski
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Mind you, I have had the opportunity to meet a few Canadian MMA champions

Jason MacDonald for one. Joe Doerkson for another.
Neither of those guys were ever champions. Was saying that really necessary? You can basically count any Canadian MMA champs on your right hand, with GSP and Sam Stout being the only ones that really pop up. So unless you're an actual doctor watching over a bout and it is your job to decide how much is enough for a fighter, I don't think you should be stating any damaging effects on fighters based on the couple that you have met.

Quote:
I should point out that there have been a few deaths in unsanctioned fights in the past ten years or so, so I don't know if we can really say that aikido is more dangerous.
Sources plzz. There has been only one MMA death in unsanctioned MMA, which is pretty incredible.

Unlike Aikido, in which there has been several recorded deaths and serious injuries, including about a year back when a thread was made in this forum about a fellow Aikidoka who became paralyzed during a tragic ukemi accident.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 12-10-2007 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:53 AM   #28
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

It is a fact of life that we will all die in one manner or another. The guy probably died as a result of doing something he loved doing. Of all of the ways do die, I don't see it as a bad way.
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Old 12-10-2007, 11:17 AM   #29
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Excellent points Kevin.

Michael,
With regards to aikido being the bigger killer, there is no evidence
in the cases I've read that shows that aikido was the killer.
At least as much evidence as what we have that shows Vasquez was killed by MMA
Quote:
Every one of these cases where death or dysfunction occurred took place in the summertime. Knowing the pathology of head trauma as well as heat stroke, my belief is that some the of injuries cited where probably due to heat stroke from over exertion. There is also no evidence that aikido was the causal factor in their deaths. All of these young students could possibly have mitigating factors in their deaths as Sam Vasquez possibly had. Since subdural hematomas can often linger for periods of weeks or even years, aikido may have been a trigger for a bullet ready to be fired, but certainly not the exact cause of death.
Ah I see. So a death in MMA is a sign of a gladitorial and "dirty" sport whereas multiple deaths in Aikido come from other factors? And you wanted to compare apples with apples? So once again when the evidence doesn't support your view you're prepared to invent evidence that does:
MMA injury and death rate is very low, so of course there must be other deaths that are being covered up.
Aikido death rate is higher, so of course there must be other mitigating factors.

Cause everyone knows Aikido is a noble pursuit where MMA is a barbaric one right?
Quote:

Both of these "arts", if we can use that term,
why couldn't we?
Quote:
are violent. Arguing over which one is the more violent seems to be moot. They both involve blood, sweat, broken bones and occasionally death.
Excellent. So now we agree that MMA is no more dangerous than Aikido or many other well respected sports, and in fact on the face of it appears to be less dangerous?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:17 PM   #30
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

I think aikido or the pursuit of Budo to be a very paradoxical thing by intention.

We study a system of violence in order to make ourselves aware of that violence and attempt to face it head on and reconcile it.

The base fact when you look at it is that you are practicing an art that at it's core premise is doing harm to others, or at least the intention/ability is there!

Over the years I have seen many insinuate that aikido is on a higher moral ground because of it's focus on resolving peace.

I would certainly say that the reason I practice it is because I want to resovle many of my own issues and better undertand the nature of conflict so I can maybe help the world be better!

The question is this: Where do you draw the line when deciding which violent things we participate in is on a higher moral ground?

Playing violent video games? The premise in many is that kids become the "good guy" and dispatch the "bad guys" and become the hero.

Watching Violent movies? Again..good guy, bad guy...hero.

Martial Sports?

Budo?

Thoughts!

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Old 12-10-2007, 01:21 PM   #31
Joseph Madden
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

I've been given a source which shows 11 aikido deaths in the past, lets say, 50 years. In the past 200 years there have been 800 deaths linked to boxing (which was bare knuckled for the first 100 years) as well as 13 deaths in Toughman contests due to cerebral damages. People actually believe that there isn't serious damage being done to the brains on these young men after repeated blows to the skull and face. So, we have 2 deaths (reportedly) from cage fighting in the last 10 years or so. In the next decade, there will be more deaths or serious injuries. More young fighters will retire early in their careers due to concussions. People will continue to pay to watch young men (hopefully) get beaten, chocked unconscious(that's certainly not causing any brain swelling or injury)
or suffer broken bones. Some will retire to "train" other fighters when in fact they can no longer see straight but they won't tell anybody that. It will still be perceived as harmless fun by some, and ghoulish death watches by others. But to merely call cage fighting as less violent than auto racing, or boxing or hockey because of the number of deaths involved really depends on what you refer to as violent and/or dangerous. We all know what the average person does when they pass a car wreck on the highway, don't we?
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Old 12-10-2007, 02:09 PM   #32
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Joseph notice how much of your last post is pure conjecture. You are trying to equate mma with boxing despite being shown several reasons why it is quite difference.
Surely the measure of whether a pastime is dangerous is the level of demonstrable injury it causes?

You have a belief about mma which is unfalsifiable. IOW it appears that you will hold to your belief *whatever* the evidence shows. You are entitled to that belief. You are in other words, entitled to be as wrong as you want. But some of us like to base our beliefs on reality and evidence.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-10-2007, 03:14 PM   #33
Joseph Madden
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

http://ejmas.com/jcs/2004jcs/jcsart_landa_0804.htm

Michael,
Go to this link. It's four years old and a lot has happened since then.
The statistics for MMA injuries will only go up in the future. Note that it states that most evidence is anecdotal at best, but that's only because stats on injuries have not been kept. Also, since bare handed fighting as well as clinching was outlawed in professional boxing some time ago, its great to see its made a comeback in
cage fighting. I know doctors are kept ringside to protect the fighters (just as they were in boxing, which didn't prevent any deaths). You like MMA, fine. To argue that its not dangerous seems to me disingenuous at the very least. Eventually people will get tired of watching it and move on to another blood sport. I wonder how much money they'd make if they gave them weapons?
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Old 12-10-2007, 03:31 PM   #34
Joseph Madden
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf
Here's another link comparing MMA to boxing.
Note at the end of the article that it stated there were several limitations to the study as there were no followup to show the after effects on individual fighters and how the only evidence available was given by court side physicians sanctioned by the state of Nevada. The level by which MMA is corrupt is probably closer to boxing then most people would like to think.
Michael, this has been an enjoyable discussion, but you have yet to prove that MMA is any less dangerous than any other sport. There's a reason they become coaches after a short career. They can't fight anymore.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:01 PM   #35
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

whaa from that table, alot of deaths has been caused by iriminage or shionage!
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Old 12-10-2007, 06:14 PM   #36
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf
Here's another link comparing MMA to boxing.
Note at the end of the article that it stated there were several limitations to the study as there were no followup to show the after effects on individual fighters and how the only evidence available was given by court side physicians sanctioned by the state of Nevada. The level by which MMA is corrupt is probably closer to boxing then most people would like to think.
Michael, this has been an enjoyable discussion, but you have yet to prove that MMA is any less dangerous than any other sport. There's a reason they become coaches after a short career. They can't fight anymore.
Ok so you've posted two studies, one of which basically says there iis not enough data, but if we were to make some data up this is what it might show.

And the other one which shows that the *vast* majority of injuries in MMA are minor and I would suggest acceptable to the competitors. Facial cuts, broken hands that sort of thing.

I haven't proven that MMA is not dangerous? Well yeah, that's because a basic rule of logic is that you can't prove a negative. The onus is on those claiming it has an unacceptable rate of risk to prove that claim. To date you have been unable to do that.

I would also be interested to see evidence of your claim of corruption within MMA- or can we assume this is merely more conjecture you've pulled out of the aether to support your case?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-10-2007, 06:20 PM   #37
Aristeia
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
. There's a reason they become coaches after a short career. They can't fight anymore.
I'm also interested in your foundation for this statement. What data have you seen or is it your own supposition of what must be the case?

When I think of MMA and people like couture, shamrock, severn, even guys like ortiz, liddel, hughes - my suspicion is their life span is no different than people at the top of any other impact sport. I live in NZ where rugby is the national game. I would suggest the longevity of most all blacks playing at top level is actually less than the mma'ers I've referred to above.

So again I ask - what do you base this on?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-10-2007, 08:42 PM   #38
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Joseph, Really what I think is the real issue here is that your opinion is that, MMA, what you call cage fighting and infer a de-evolution back to the barbaric days of gladitors, is unethical.

You used one recent death in the sport to say "see it has happened, and surely more are to come in the future in this "blood sport".

The evidence presented in inconclusive from what I have seen to say that it is any more or less dangerous than football, rugby, boxing etc.

What is really the crux and core of the argument is that MMA to many is a barbaric and a sport that they do not like.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions.

The counterpoint to your statement though is that you have posted an emotionally charged argument that provides inconclusive evidence, based on your personal opinion...which you are entitled to.

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Old 12-10-2007, 10:10 PM   #39
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Sam Vasquez was the unacceptable risk Michael. He leaves a spouse and a son. And although most involved in the MMA's will argue that he had a pre-existing condition and his death was a fluke, the fight will go on. Until the next Sam Vasquez.

OSU
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:41 PM   #40
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Sam Vasquez was the unacceptable risk Michael. He leaves a spouse and a son. And although most involved in the MMA's will argue that he had a pre-existing condition and his death was a fluke, the fight will go on. Until the next Sam Vasquez.

OSU
I agree the death is tragic. But are we saying that a death should mean the demise of the sport? And if so why does that not hold true for every other sport that causes death - aikido included. Apples for apples remember?

And incidentally Vasquuez's wife is on record as saying she does not blame the sport and does not believe her husband would either...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-11-2007, 09:41 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Joseph,

I have to say that your logic and reasoning on this issue seems weak and emotionally driven, for all the reasons the others have stated. I did a search to see if this type of arguement is typical of your posts, but it's not. I'm currious as to your background with MMA, and why you seem so dead set against it?

No biggie...just currious.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:17 AM   #42
Keith Larman
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

As a guy who used to make a living evaluating statistical studies... Speaking very loosely, nothing I've seen presented is of much value in a strict statistical sense. About all we can say is that there have been deaths reported in both venues. The issue would not be whether death can occur. The real issue is the *probability* of death/serious injury on a per person basis. Death from falling in the shower happens a lot more in an absolute sense than the combined deaths of all sports, martial arts included. But the *risk* of death while taking a shower is vastly lower per person because most everyone takes showers (hopefully). It is about risk analysis and to do that you need counts of persons participating, frequency, time spent doing it, etc. In other words there appears to be little information out there that would allow us to "equalize" the populations so we could do direct comparisons of relative risk.

I'm not surprised to see some reports of death in Aikido. My wife is in the medical world and she told me once she worries about some of the breakfalls she's seen in terms of constant low level impacts to the brain, neck structures and spine. I showed her that the style I now practice has actually done away with all the breakfalls and handles those things differently, in part for those very concerns. This is the same problem as when boxing went from bare handed to thicker, padded gloves. It changed the nature of the force transmission from jarring, localized, and focused on the surface (busting your hand if you hit too hard) to these more diffuse outwardly spreading and penetrating shocks that could be delivered with dramatically more force overall. The rate of concussions shot up. Which in essence means a more severe injury to the brain.

So yes, padding isn't always a good thing. Another corrolary is to look at injuries in football (I participated in a small study on that years ago looking at the stats). The rate of serious injuries tended to go up with the improvement of padding and "protective" gear. Why? Well, the defensive players learned that they could hit harder without hurting themselves *most of the time*. The problem here is that when something was out of alignment, the leg twisted funny, the back turned a bit, or the hit lifted a pad out of the way the more severe hit translated into sometimes horrific injuries for one or both parties involved. Those loud crashing hits you see nowadays were unheard of back when padding and helmets were just strips of leather -- you'd never survive a game. Nowadays they hit like that all the time. And most of the time they get up unfazed. But when something goes wrong, it goes wrong catastrophically.

I see risks in both pursuits. I think they're a bit different in what we should be worried about. For those of us in Aikido the serious risks are head/neck injuries due to the falls we take and that would seem to be supported by the graphic on irimi-nage and shihonage. And like the linked article pointed out, the softer tatami isn't aways a blessing with certain types of falls. Good for cushioning the body, but if we screw up and hit the soft tatami *really* hard with your head (especially with a snapping action), well, you've got issues... And with MMA you've got different dynamics. More likelihood of nasty breaks, facial injuries, and hand injuries. But the dynamic of head/brain injuries is going to be different and I think hard to compare with Aikido.

I would also comment that one thing Aikido has going for it is that one can control to some extent how far you're willing to take things. Proper training in ukemi and also making sure you don't allow the "new student as crash test dummy" attitude discussed in the article linked. I thought it was interesting that most of those injuries were with repeated throws done at one time in University settings. Something that would be totally unacceptable in most any dojo I've ever been to here. So some of the deaths described seem to me more about gross negligence in a particular context rather than the norm.

Lots of variables...

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Old 12-11-2007, 11:32 AM   #43
Joseph Madden
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

This is my last word on the subject since the majority of people on this thread feel I'm being emotional and not having the gift of foresight.We know the history of deaths in the world of professional blood sports(I'm referring to boxing, Toughman etc). We KNOW that over 800 people died in the world of boxing alone in the past 200 years. We know that people spent money to watch these people die. We know that some people, not all mind you, pay to watch these exhibitions to see if someone dies. We know that people bet on the outcome of these tournaments. We know that the groups involved with cage fighting have been less than transparent when it comes to the health and well being of their fighters. We know of the history of corruption within the Nevada Gaming Boards. We should know, that if all cage fighters are required to undergo a pre fight MRI to see if theres any evidence of a pre-existing condition that would preclude them from fighting, that they would not be allowed to fight (this is currently a rule held by sanctioned fights). Sam Vasquez's widow has stated he had a pre-existing condition. Why was he allowed to fight? I think you know the answer. The show must go on. Too much money changing hands. The difference between the person who studies an art like aikido and the person who gets paid to possibly die for the benefit of his fellow beings entertainment is one of morality. This is my opinion. The facts speak for themselves.
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:43 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
This is my opinion.
This is clear, and I have no issue with it.

Quote:
The facts speak for themselves
Unfortunately, not so clear, and where I think we differ.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:10 PM   #45
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

I asked my doctor the last time I saw him about his opinion on boxing vs MMA.

He told me that his concern is not getting hit in the head, or getting knocked out. It is getting hit in the head after getting knocked out, even a flash knock out. After describing what happens in MMA to him, and him being a boxing and wrestling fan, he told me I would be safer doing MMA then boxing, if only because there is no standing 8. This goes exactly with what most people commenting on the sport are saying, and with my own observations having been at ringside, or judged at least 75 fights and being in in the fighters area, talking to the fighters before and after the events. The majority of these guys fighting weekly. Most professional fighters in sanctioned areas are not allowed to fight that frequently.

Rarely are any of them physically hurt beyond a few bruises, less then 1/5 of the fights actually end in a concussion or knock out, most fights end with a stoppage do to strikes that would eventually knock the person out, usually in a very safe area like the side of the face. Another large majority of fights end with rear naked chokes.

In professional fights, much of the same is true, knockouts are rare, minor physical injury is common, and most fights are ended by ref stoppage before any brain injury is done. This is very much unlike my experience in most striking events, where you are flash KOed (which means there may be a concussion) you are then stood up and punched again, causing even more possibility of damage.

Like all professional sports, the risk of injury is always present. Personally, I've seen far more serious injuries in judo tournaments then in MMA events. And I've watched far less judo matches.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:43 PM   #46
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Just an FYI, Vasquez had a pre-existing blood clot. The MMA fight aggravated the clot it did not cause it.

I had a bad herniated c6 disk in my neck. My Dr. said judo did not cause it, but it may have aggravated it.

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Old 12-11-2007, 01:05 PM   #47
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

I always cringe watching judo tournaments. Guys trying to avoid the ippon put themselves in very risky situations if they misjudge!

Joseph,

I don't know about all that you mention. All I know is the fighters that I train with that are pro or semi pro are good guys, understand the risk of their sport, do it for much the same reasons you and all of us do what we do. It is their passion.

I believe that the good things that come out of the sport far outweigh the bad.

I find nothing unethical about 2 guys that enter the ring that have trained hard and simply want to fight within the constraints of an artificial system designed to support it.

I don't gamble, I don't eat meat (I'm Vegetarian), and I don't think killing and violence toward people is right.

I do draw a distinction between martial sport, rules of warfare, and gratitious violence of all types mental and physical that soul intention is to degrade or injure someone in some way for the purpose of furthering their own gain without the consent of the other person or society in general.

I don't believe Martial sports to fall into this category.

two men enter, one man leaves!

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Old 12-11-2007, 02:36 PM   #48
Aristeia
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Joseph one of the key areas we differ I think is on the matter of choice.

You view MMA as gladitorial. But here's a key difference. True gladiators generally had no choice. It was to the death for the pure amusement of the audience.

MMA is *very* different. I do not accept for a second your premise that people come in the hope of seeing someone die. It just ain't so.

MMAers are not coerced into it - they do it because they love the training, love the sport. Competing is a way of testing themselves. They in the main use it as a tool for personal development and challenge - just like you may use Aikido. They would fight with or without an audience. So people come to be entertained by watching to people who are highly trained do what they love. There is no moral issue in that as far as I can see.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:39 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Another point to make considering the maturation and evolution of NHB fighting is that there is a clear process before you can crawl into the ring.

You just don't show up at a tournament or competition and jump into the ring because you decide you are a tough guy.

You have to climb the ladder and train for many years. I can't recall any 18 year olds in there can any of you???

I have been following Marcelo Garcia from Alliance JJ for the last few years. He is one of the upcoming most promising fighters around. His fighting career has been managed very carefully and it has been a long process. He has not even really made it into the ring yet!

We do NHB fighting in the Army. Again, you just don't pair up two untrained soldiers and throw them into the ring. There is a process in which we screen them through successive grappling matches with increasing rules to insure that the two guys we are matching up, both have the skills to protect themselves appropriately.

That coupled with the right rules, referees and oversight...well it is controlled, highly skilled, and the danger has been mitigated as best can be done and keep it realistic and safe.

It is a far cry from the backyard fight clubs and the toughman contest of yore. Where two unskilled dudes, or one skilled guy and one unskilled guy pounded the crap out of each other.

I'd agree with you 20 years ago on this issue based on what I saw back then!

It was essentially a cockfight!

The same is not true today. We are not putting chess players on the field with American Football or Rugby players and watching the mayhem.

We are watching skilled, professional athletes who have invested years in conditioning and training get into the ring with control measures participate in a sport.

Sure you may not like it. Personally I hate boxing! It is unexciting to me, and I don't like to see two guys pound each other in the head over and over.

That said, it too is a professional sport and respect the fact and appreciate the skill and committment of thoses that those that do it

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Old 12-12-2007, 04:31 AM   #50
Michael Douglas
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Re: MMA loses a fighter...

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
I've been given a source which shows 11 aikido deaths in the past, lets say, 50 years. In the past 200 years there have been 800 deaths linked to boxing (which was bare knuckled for the first 100 years) as well as 13 deaths in Toughman contests due to cerebral damages.
You are the only one equating MMA with boxing.
You're trying to confuse the issue instead of defending your bias.
Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
It will still be perceived as harmless fun by some, and ghoulish death watches by others. But to merely call cage fighting as less violent than auto racing, or boxing or hockey because of the number of deaths involved really depends on what you refer to as violent and/or dangerous.
Ghoulish death watches? Sheesh.

Now you're trying to equate 'violent' with 'dangerous'.
More misdirection.
You won't discuss this without confusion will you?
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