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Old 12-29-2007, 10:13 PM   #26
gregg block
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Krav Maga has the best philosophy for dealing with a knife attack in my opinion. Block, get off line ,hit your opponent hard and do all at the same time if possible. Trying to grab the weapon and disarm without striking is suicide. You need to stop the second stabbing attempt from happening if you are fortunate enough to stop the first. A better philosophy is to run and avoid this kind of situation if at all possible. If that means giving up your money and some pride so be it. In the scheme of things a small price to pay
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:29 PM   #27
Eric Joyce
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

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Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Krav Maga has the best philosophy for dealing with a knife attack in my opinion. Block, get off line ,hit your opponent hard and do all at the same time if possible. Trying to grab the weapon and disarm without striking is suicide. You need to stop the second stabbing attempt from happening if you are fortunate enough to stop the first. A better philosophy is to run and avoid this kind of situation if at all possible. If that means giving up your money and some pride so be it. In the scheme of things a small price to pay
Hey Gregg,

I agree. I have a Krav Maga background and still train in it. Before I started with Krav Maga, I had the aikido and jujutsu background. What opened my eyes and surprised me were the knife techniques. We would practice with fake knives, then we would try out these knives called Shock Knives (a little electrical shock to mimic the feeling of being cut) It didn't hurt, but you know when you got cut. Then the instructors would put on there bullet men out fits and we would do real attacks (usually involving verbal de-escalation drills and woofing/smack talk to try to intimidate you). It was challenging yet fun.

What I learned was that you can still use aikido techniques in those situations, but the key, as you have stated, is the use of strikes/atemi. Be it an elbow, fist, heel palm, knee, whatever, this is key in being able to position yourself so you can execute a technique. It's nice to see a kata osae shoulder pin in action or a hiji shime be put on

I still think the knife techniques in aikido have their place. I believe incorporating other ways of attacking with a knife opens up those possibilities.

Eric Joyce
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Old 12-31-2007, 12:37 PM   #28
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

IMHO, it is the blade awareness in the person that makes the difference, not the art.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:08 PM   #29
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

As long as you don't become aware of the blade when its sticking out of your chest. Dealing with an individual who knows how to use a knife unarmed is a dangerous situation. Unless there is no alternative escape option it should be avoided. A good martial artist must know the odds, his/her limitations and the unpredicable nature of combat.
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:28 AM   #30
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

We (FMA) used to say there were two outcomes to a knife fight; one of you goes to the hospital, the other goes to the morgue.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:49 PM   #31
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Yep. Though I was fortunate enough to avoid both places on one occasion. But after being lucky enough to avoid the first lounge I pu my wheels on and was gone!
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:44 PM   #32
Fabian Junker
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I was taught two rules about knife fighting/dealing with a knife in FMA:

1) You will get cut.
2) Don't die.

That being said, I think most martial artists still haven't been shown how fast and devastating knife attacks can really be by an instructor who knows what he's doing.

I like practicing knife techniques because it really helps with footwork, timing, etc. Can be a lot of fun, too. Still, I hope I won't get into a real knife situation ever!!
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:08 PM   #33
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Techniques are techniques. Kata is Kata. Fighting is fighting.
Even Tomiki's film of his frays at Judo clubs looked more like Mifune Judo than traditional Aikido techniques.

The reality of fighting is that a knifeman at an ATM most likely will surprise you, take your balance from behind, turn you around and overwhelm you with force. His forearm will likely be placed across your neck in a manner that lifts your feet off the ground. Your back will be against a wall. His knife will be pointing directly at your eyeball. Now that he has your attention, he will let you down wile keeping your posture bent while you face the machine. His knife will be placed at your kidney or neck from behind.

Dojo techniques are great for understanding principles of movement. But they assume that the gunman or knifeman is unskilled.

Aiki is only one answer in grappling strategies. Cross training is essential if you want to "beat the streets". There is great wisdom in Silat, Kali, Escrima, and Jujitsu training if you want to focus on street situations. The aiki practice you do will always make your other arts more refined.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:51 AM   #34
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

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Graham Old wrote: View Post
I understand that the Sensei was simply trying to add a sense of realism to the class, but I sat there thinking that I would teach a different technique in response to someone who brings out a knife and demands all of your money. I call it:
Give Them your Frickin' Money!
I call it, Wake the "F" up or Quit Now! ...REALLY!!!

Do you really think that O-Sensei would have given up his money??? Not likely, even on his last day on the planet... Sorry.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:55 AM   #35
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
However i tell my training partners that this is more like what a knife attack will feel like.
That looks quite familiar. Good choice of video Demetrio.

Good advice, especially from Lynn on understanding the reality of what happens when one faces a knife attacker. Imho if you're thinking "technique" you're not thinking "survival" and would probably come out on the worse end of things.

I cannot agree however that one just "sit there and take it or give up ones money" since as others have indicated, there is really no guarantee that they just won't kill you anyway (at least where I live). There is a process that an attacker will use to select its prey. This selection will take into account certain things that they expect to happen. Break this cycle of assumptions and you can vastly improve survival chances. Assist the cycle and you can severely reduce your chances. Of course every environment is different, so one must be aware of the general crime trends in ones own back yard.

On Monday's class we were dealing with this subject and discussing the reality of being seriously cut/stabbed, the physical and psychological effect that different cuts will have and basically how long you may have to live after certain stabs or cuts are received. The following application of waza was most interesting when one realized that in x seconds unconsciousness/death would occur. A lot of wasted movement was removed. I can't say that nothing worked, but the critical change was not in technique but in mindset. For those who realize that being cut or stabbed may not be instantly fatal or disabling a host of options appear if you have the right survival mindset and don't recoil when you get hit. In this regard Aikido provides quite a few good tools to get the job done imho.

Just my 2 cents. What works for one person will not work for someone else, hence the need for many to cross train etc. Imho it's all good - whatever floats your boat. but technique is useless if you don't have the survival will to back it up imho.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:22 AM   #36
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

The Border Task Force of the San Diego Police Department took the time to train many of us who were working in Tijuana by request of the Japanese Maquiladora Association.

We went through their ATM and Carjack scenarios. They were brutal. Surprising, overwhelming force. I did nothing to defend myself except once, I tried to create distance. I lost.

One time in mexico City, I had an independent taxi driver take me to a restaurant I knew well. When he took a turn I did not recognize, I quickly pulled a pen from my pocket and stuck it into the back of his neck, right behind his ear. Then we negotiated the route.

I teach survival skills to pilots at two different venues. One thing I tell them is to understand basic strategy. Strategy comes before tactics and techniques.

Simply put, (at the risk of over generalizing), a criminal wants as much as they can get as easily as they can get it. Everything you do is a negotiation. Sokaku Takeda, it was said, could determine the intent of someone from behind a door.

This is an easier task than some expect. If you have kids, you probably already have developed this Ninja-style skill. Let's say you are having a pool party. You are drinking beers, flipping the hotdogs. nevertheless, you know everything that is going on in the pool.

Take this skill and apply it to the street. Proactive avoidance begins at at least 50 yards out. So does the negotiation. Remember the dialogue in "Kill Bill", I want him to know, that I know that you know that i know.....

If they close the gap despite your nonverbal communication that surprise is lost, each action on their part is part of the negotiation.

It is scarry to just give up you wallet, and then walk behind the bushes just because they say so. There is no negotiation in that and they will most likely continue to take from you.

Throw down wallets are a decent ploy (under the right circumstances). Throw the wallet in one direction and run in the other. They get 3 dollars and an old expired credit card. you negotiated distance.

Aiki, to me, is really about strategy before it is about techniques.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:57 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
It is scarry to just give up you wallet, and then walk behind the bushes just because they say so. There is no negotiation in that and they will most likely continue to take from you.
I don't think I have any problem giving up a wallet, but no way in hell am I walking behind any bushes afterward. If you're going to kill me anyway, do it in front of witnesses.

Hi Shaun,

I've thought about your post since I saw it this morning, and I've decided that I have no clue at all what Ueshiba Sensei would have done, at any point in his life, or even if it would be the same thing at one point as another. And as much as I appreciate and respect him for the art he created, I'm not sure I should copy whatever he would have done anyway.

Now, Sogaku Takeda?? I'm pretty sure I do know what he would have done...and it wouldn't be pretty...

Best,
Ron (not seeking to emulate him either...)

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Old 01-16-2008, 12:27 PM   #38
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

I think it was just an example of what kind of circustance you might be put in. How do you know that person won't stab you after you give them the money.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:40 PM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

You don't. You also don't know that a plane toilet won't drop out of the sky and hit you as you are typing your next post. But if I were you, I wouldn't waste time worrying about it. LOL

Basically, we don't really *know* anything.

But that doesn't stop me from handing over my wallet when threatened with a weapon, with a somewhat reasonable hope that the person will take the wallet and be satisfied, more often than not. If I can set up an escape route while giving up the wallet, even better. If I can set up a counter attack while giving up the wallet, not quite as good, but in a pinch, you'll do what you have to.

More often than not, if someone wants me to go along with them to a secluded place, I'm going to be physically battered at the LEAST. Sorry, but I'm not going to willingly do that.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-16-2008, 03:41 PM   #40
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

No one really knows what they are going to do in a situation until they have evaluated the odds of success in real time. Part of that process is the reading of the intent of the aggressor.

Perhaps we need to make a deeper study of "Haragei" -- roughly translated; the reading of someone's belly.

Reading intent is a skill we begin to develop doing Rondori. When freestyle sparring, intent becomes even more subtle.

I personally like working with real blades. Each of us Budo addicts likely have a 4 foot razor blade hanging around. Face off katana to katana and notice how much more your antennas come out.

Take your Bokken and try to tap the other person's bokken 1/2 inch from his or her front grip. Make this a freeform exercise. Throw away all ideas of style and how good you might look. Find a trusted partner and just go at it with the minimal amount of control that it takes not to do serious damage.

Haragei begins to emerge.
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Old 05-10-2008, 06:06 AM   #41
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

From the moment someone demands your wallet, you need to be thinking about how to get his. OK - a bit extreme perhaps - just to make the point. I have only been in one dire-ish situation and, while nothing happened in the end, it did not end up like that by me being overly passive. Nor was I overly assertive, but I was ready inside - and maybe they knew it. Of course, maybe it was just luck.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 05-10-2008 at 06:09 AM.

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Old 05-10-2008, 03:38 PM   #42
rob_liberti
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

It is somewhat helpful to think of your body a bit like a turtle shell where what would be the shell side (the line from back of hand to shoulder) is _not as bad_ for getting cut as what would be the underside (the line from palm to arm pit).

Regardless, the thing about knives is that once cut, the other guy typically just has to play keep away for under 2 minutes while you bleed and continue to weaken.

If you are going to take a knife when you are unarmed, the only realistic chance is to develop center on contact, and once you have that (how many have that?!) you need to make sure to grab the meat of the thumb as opposed to the wrist before attempting stripping the knife.

But that is still very stupid. Roll up a magazine, use a belt, a pen, a comb, a flashlight, throw your keys at them; do SOMETHING other than try to take that knife barehanded.

However, I say just invent wallets that explode when more than 5 feet from you and be done with it.

Rob
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Old 05-10-2008, 06:56 PM   #43
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Defending Against the Knife Means Ignoring the Flower

The assumption is that I have no choice but "to fight". I am trapped in a knife fight. I am now on automatic. My brain reacts to the knife before my body...before I am aware of my decision to act...my mind knows and my body moves.

As such, prior to all "combat" I must train 1) for the act of particular defense and 2) for all other possibilities.

The flower may blossom into many shapes, colors and densities. It evokes a variety of "emotions" depending on the unsuspecting "victim". Fear, insecurity, over-confidence, and courage are all possibilities.

But, the expert ignores the flower and all its temptations to illicit "emotion". The expert instead uses his own "spade" to dig for the source of the flower. He attacks the branch and the root that "does not move". He ignores the flower that is the knife.

Instead of fleeing, he engages by "going into" the branch and root. He does not think of his strategy. He allows his brain and body to make decisions before he becomes aware of them.

He flanks the forearm and he penetrates the shoulder allowing the knife to pass him by. He is in the eye of the storm protected from the viciousness of the knife.

The danger is managed by "controlling" the knife and eliminating its source. He knows not to attack the fluid, changing, deceptive flower. He instead attacks the immobile branch and the root that he knows is simply covered with the illusion of earth.

He has successfully defended against the flower that is the knife. He has lived another day.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Old 05-12-2008, 10:18 AM   #44
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Defending Against the Knife Means Ignoring the Flower

The flower may blossom into many shapes, colors and densities. It evokes a variety of "emotions" depending on the unsuspecting "victim". Fear, insecurity, over-confidence, and courage are all possibilities.

But, the expert ignores the flower and all its temptations to illicit "emotion". ..... He ignores the flower that is the knife.

Instead of fleeing, he engages by "going into" the branch and root.

He flanks the forearm and he penetrates the shoulder allowing the knife to pass him by. He is in the eye of the storm protected from the viciousness of the knife.

...He knows not to attack the fluid, changing, deceptive flower. He instead attacks the immobile branch and the root that he knows is simply covered with the illusion of earth.

He has successfully defended against the flower that is the knife. He has lived another day.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Great post.

I have used a few instinctive drills that begin with largo mano and end at corto ranges.

Passing and meeting drills using full body evasion. We begin with a padded dowling. The student must read the body and intent (the root) and not be distratced by the waved knife. Range is range, learn it and trust it.

Then we move to a shiny dull knife. The temptation is to look at the shine (flower pedals are indeed deceptive if they catch your eye with color or bling). If you are distracted by the pedal, you are going to react slowly and out of sinc.

Then move to a real knife. Notice how the 1/4 to 1/2 inch range you have developed now has to be relearned because the knife is real. Rebuild your confidence and reduce the gap back to 1/4 - 1/2 inch.

Finally, get a riding crop. Do the same passing and meeting drills. This time, you are working on blending with a known range (the crop) without letting the sound distract you. The crop moves too fast to see. If you haven't succeeded in the former drills, you won't do well on this one. The crop teaches how to fight against an edged or blunt weapon at night and in the rain. In such conditions, you have to use all your senses to feel the range of the weapon.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:31 AM   #45
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

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Great post.

Finally, get a riding crop. Do the same passing and meeting drills. This time, you are working on blending with a known range (the crop) without letting the sound distract you. The crop moves too fast to see. If you haven't succeeded in the former drills, you won't do well on this one. The crop teaches how to fight against an edged or blunt weapon at night and in the rain. In such conditions, you have to use all your senses to feel the range of the weapon.
Hmmm...a riding crop. I like it. Though, you aren't being very traditional. You are a bit inventive. You are going to offend many.

Joe

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Old 05-12-2008, 11:12 AM   #46
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Hmmm...a riding crop. I like it. Though, you aren't being very traditional. You are a bit inventive. You are going to offend many.

Joe
Perhaps this summer you can teach me how to ride the real knife like your students do. That was amazing. Knife and body doing push-blade with light touch at decent speed.

And I loved the way you used multiple striking full force attacks, with complete control - real blade to unprotected body, legs and arms. Teach me to extend my aura like that.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:10 PM   #47
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

what is taught in the average Aikido dojo with respect to the knife is a joke in my experience

the best training in connection with the knife is to go to Fillipino Martial Arts school or a JKD Concepts school

you will learn how to fight & defend against knife attacks

i also know that those Krav Maga students are pretty dangerous so you could probably train there as well
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:30 PM   #48
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Ouch!

Hey, what about the well trained knife fighter being undefeatable against the unarmed defender? The way the knife fighter's style wouldn't matter would it?

On the flipside for the heck of it, what about the poorly trained knife fighter against the well trained unarmed defender? Would it matter what the unarmed defender's style is?

What I was told Aikido had influenced Krav Maga. The cool thing about Krav Maga is, it's good because of the violent conflict it develop out of-good moves probably more for the average fight situation required to defend against. It is a great art because it is has to adapt to the other guys figuring out how to defeat it. Once the other guy figures out your moves you need new ones. Aikido's knife defensive developed kind of differently from Krav Maga, but kind of the same way too. I think Aikido developed from a more particular way of attack. You know like more straight on line attacks. Aikido's defensive moves came from a feudal time. Krav Maga is more of modern times in a different part of the world and then wouldn't it be different from what developed into Aikido?

I think Aikido would do fine against the average poorly trained punk with a knife and didn't know his victim knew Aikido. Isn't that the key to all fighting is the element of surprise?

Last edited by Buck : 05-12-2008 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:41 PM   #49
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

If your faced with a guy who really is very well trained in knife arts and is wheeling his blades, and he is experienced and knows Aikido moves too, and you know Aikido you have little options. One option is the quick draw combative gun training coming into play. If you are in a state that will not throw you in jail for braking a law because of using a gun against a knife.

What ya going to do?
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:23 PM   #50
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Christopher Froba wrote: View Post
what is taught in the average Aikido dojo with respect to the knife is a joke in my experience

the best training in connection with the knife is to go to Fillipino Martial Arts school or a JKD Concepts school

you will learn how to fight & defend against knife attacks

i also know that those Krav Maga students are pretty dangerous so you could probably train there as well
Most knife fighters (not "for show" knife owners) have more than one knife on them and are trained in how to deploy them quickly under any circumstances.

Is anyone training against multiple knives?
How about the juggled knife, i.e. you place a man in Kota and he flips the knife in the air and catches it in his other hand.
How about the knife that gets thrown at you as you enter mai-i?
How about the knife that is on a tether and is slung at you and retrieved with skill?
How about the knife that has no punyo. rather, one side is a knife and the butt of the knife is a dirk?
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