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Old 12-07-2007, 07:38 AM   #1
roadster
 
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UFC at a glance

I haven't really watched it but at a glance (commercials and ads) I can say that I have no respect for those fighters.

Why? Because I can't say that I have seen any of them have the slightest bit of respect for their opponents. Just about every clip I have seen is full of angry chest beating caveman style foul mouthing of anybody and everybody they come in contact with.

Your thoughts?
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:09 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: UFC at a glance

Personally, I don't watch the commercials and adds. But I really like watching the fights, and I almost always see them embracing each other after the fight is over.

One of the best fights I ever saw was between two women fighters on the showtime version of the UFC. It was easily the best fight on the card that night.

I have a LOT of respect for the fighters, and while I have no wish to do what they do, I have learned a lot from studying the fights in detail, and trying to understand the strategies they employ, and the environment they train and fight in.

I had the pleasure recently of training aikido with someone pretty well versed in those methods. We were in a dojo where it seemed ok that he took advantage of any opportunity to take the training to the mat. I enjoyed the experience immensely, and found that some of my more recent explorations into body structure served me well, as did my familiarity with the medium from studying it at a distance.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-07-2007 at 08:12 AM.

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Old 12-07-2007, 11:15 AM   #3
Keith Larman
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Re: UFC at a glance

What Ron said...

I count myself lucky -- when I first started Aikido there was a fella who was already a 3rd kyu who was also coming around the same times I was. He was about my height, about as strong, and in a bit better shape to be honest. He had wrestling from high school and the collegiate level. The guy's ground work was great and his balance, strength and ability to tie me up was just astounding. Anyway, my entire way up the kyu ranks and up through about nidan we trained together quite extensively (luckily for me he was my uke for both my shodan and nidan tests). He moved out of state after that, but in retrospect I realize that a great deal of my understandings of certain things, about certain openings, about balance and body mechanics came in part due to my training with him. Including the "hey, let's try this" sessions where we would kinda paint outside the lines a bit before or after class. If you ever want to test out the quality of your pins in Aikido, get a grappler or wrestler to go down on the mat with you. You learn that once you toss them you'd better get them locked into that joint lock *RIGHT NOW*. No time for fiddling. No time for adjusting. And you also realize that the *only* way to keep these guys down if they really wanted to get up would be to start breaking/dislocating things. And if a guy like that is attacking you for real, well, you don't want to let them up if you managed to get them down and pinned. Cause the next time they come at you you may not be so lucky.

Kinda changes your understanding of "loving protection". If the bad guy is going to fight the pin and try to come up, well, you may need to dislocate that shoulder to stop him. In a "real" fight with someone intent on doing damage you start to realize that they may not want to just lay there compliantly. And you'll see how they can wiggle, move, and reverse things if you watch some of those UFC matches.

It changed my viewpoint.

But then again I've had other instructors jokingly refer to me as Anakin. So YMMV...

All good if you ask me...

Or as a friend once told me, you can learn from most anything. Usually you see things you want to try yourself. But sometimes it is "Man, that looked like it hurt a lot -- note to self -- never try that move..." I'll let them take a few of those punches so I can learn from them by watching...

Yeah, some of the macho posturing is silly. But then again, that's not what I watch. I'm more interested in what happens once the bell rings...

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Old 12-07-2007, 12:01 PM   #4
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
I haven't really watched it but at a glance (commercials and ads) I can say that I have no respect for those fighters.

Why? Because I can't say that I have seen any of them have the slightest bit of respect for their opponents. Just about every clip I have seen is full of angry chest beating caveman style foul mouthing of anybody and everybody they come in contact with.

Your thoughts?
UFC/PRIDE FC is the closest thing to testing out real one on one combat scenarios. The taunting and such is used to draw the audience into watching the fight. No different than when boxers face each other during weigh in. ITS for SHOW. They want to attract as many viewers as possible using drama. TV execs know that the general public deep down want to see two angry guys going after each other. The angry chest beating caveman style is only for show because in the end both fighters get paid. Some of the taunting was proven to be fake, Ortiz and Shamrock for example. As well as the Roy Jones fights. In the end they get PAID.

In defense these guys were not the bar fighters and street thugs as in the first UFC fight. The current gen fighters are trained and are probably the same people that train in the aikido dojo as you.
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:19 PM   #5
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Re: UFC at a glance

Having met a few of these guys, having trained with some of them, and having a couple of them as personal friends....

I will tell you that it is the exception and not the norm and most of these guys are the most humble and respectful people on the earth.

On another note as pointed out above. Don't confuse gamesmanship, sport, and competition attitudes as reflective of their true nature.

I think I am a pretty nice guy over all.

However before I compete things get much different.

I can also show you videos of when I was a drill instructor for OCS and you'd think I was the biggest, meanest, irreverent dude you'd ever met!

Look deeper beyond the surface of things...that is the aiki thing to do! Don't judge a book by it's cover, and take time to get to know them.

Just because they are not quiet, have a heir of piety, and don't where a hakama doesn't mean they are any less humble than the next guy!

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Old 12-07-2007, 05:53 PM   #6
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Re: UFC at a glance

Don't forget, a lot of the chest-beating and posturing is due to:

1. the promoters egging the fighters on, to generate hype and any appearance of a possible grudge, to increase viewer numbers ($$$);

2. the fighters putting themselves in a frame of mind where they can be utterly focused on beating the opponent, where there is no self-doubt or room for mercy in their minds; not all fighters need this, but they are encouraged to say things in this vein by promoters, see (1).

After the fight, as has already been said, there is usually a return to at least respect for the ability and courage of the other fighter.

At least, this is what I think is happening.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:29 PM   #7
roadster
 
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Re: UFC at a glance

Well, I have never met the real UFC fighters in person so I am not sure how much respect they have for each other. I can only go by what I see on TV, and the occasional UFC style fighter that strays into the dojo thumping chest.

Having said that, I have a related question. When it comes to martial arts dojos in America VS Japan, do the dojos in Japan weed people out that seem to be in it just to learn how to hurt someone?

I have seen guys come into the dojo claiming black belt this and that and really focusing on how cool they are. I wonder if some Sensei just tell them to go pound sand because they are in it for the wrong reason.

Do the dojo in Japan shape these kinds of guys to have more respect for themselves and others before progressing them in rank?
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Old 12-08-2007, 10:41 AM   #8
David Orange
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
I haven't really watched it but at a glance (commercials and ads) I can say that I have no respect for those fighters.

Why? Because I can't say that I have seen any of them have the slightest bit of respect for their opponents....
Your thoughts?
Erik,

You'd have to understand the roots of UFC to really appreciate what it's about and how it evolved. That means, you go back to the 1970s and 80s in the US and find that karate people, judo people, jujutsu people, kung fu people, ninjas, aikidoka, etc. all knew about one another, but few of them knew much about the other people's arts. And that led, inevitably, to The Big Question: how would X art fare against Y art in "a real fight"?

Could karate beat judo?

Could ninjutsu beat karate?

Could kung fu beat judo?

The Gracie brothers came out with their style of jujutsu, developed through competition in Brazil, in which there were no restrictions on arts. So they had fought karate guys, judo guys, other jujutsu stylists, etc., and they felt like they had developed an approach that could beat any other. They advertised that they would fight anyone from any style and they offered a $50,000.00 prize to anyone who could beat them. The roots of UFC are in the videos they made of those $50,000.00 prize fights and sold through ads in Black Belt magazine. Anyway, those videos provided them with the money to pay up if they did lose. But they didn't lose. And from there, the UFC pay-per-view events started.

In the very early events, it was very interesting to see the attitudes with which the various stylists came into the ring. They felt that their arts would beat any other arts, but they had never actually tried that. Judo guys tended to be surprised at being punched while karate guys were shocked at being taken to the ground. In those days, people tended to be either a striker or a grappler. Since those early fights, martial arts in the United States have really evolved and there is less generally ignorant belief that any single art can beat all the other arts. Interestingly, what has really emerged as dominant (last time I really paid much attention to UFC) was Greco-Roman wrestling, augmented by striking and kicking practice. Guys who were really good at "real" wrestling (as opposed to "show" wrestling) were able to dominate.

So UFC and the Gracies did a lot to improve US martial arts. It's certainly good to watch the older fights to realize how far "belief" can lead us into mistake.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 12-08-2007, 11:55 AM   #9
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
Having said that, I have a related question. When it comes to martial arts dojos in America VS Japan, do the dojos in Japan weed people out that seem to be in it just to learn how to hurt someone?

Do the dojo in Japan shape these kinds of guys to have more respect for themselves and others before progressing them in rank?
Hell no. There are good dojos and bad dojos in Japan, just like anywhere else.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:47 PM   #10
Ellis Amdur
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Re: UFC at a glance

University aikido clubs, under the supervision (albeit distant) of one or another shihan are cesspools of brutality and dominance hierarchy orders that would not be acceptable in a rhesus monkey population. (In the latter, a "freshman" can move up the hierarchy based on strength, but in a Japanese university dojo, a freshman, no matter how strong, might be beaten to death en masse). Traditional Japanese male culture has, as one premise, that when one is young, one is expected to be belligerent, aggressive and extravagantly emotional. When a current shihan at the Aikikai was young, he broke arms in front of the eminent elders of the dojo, and when he once lost his temper when a foreign student requested the "student rate" for dojo fees and decked the fellow, Osawa Kisoburo told the complaining foreigner, "Well, he's young. You have to understand."
Me, I felt safer when I trained at Koei gym, a professional kick boxing gym, than I did at the majority of Japanese aikido dojo.

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Old 12-09-2007, 08:16 AM   #11
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Re: UFC at a glance

People are entertained by high levels of force, macho acting, tough nicknames, shadow boxing in the mist, making all sorts of tough guy faces, etc.

The types of advertisements that play during UFC-ish events tell me its main audience is young aggressive males, probably like 16-30 age group... a group that I really want no part of.

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Old 12-09-2007, 10:40 AM   #12
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Re: UFC at a glance

As others have said, I learn from watching those fights. I wish we had a UFC-trained fighter cross-training at our dojo, it would be very educational.

While I would like to see a little more decorum in the ring, I recognize it for what it is and it doesn't really bother me.

Avery Jenkins
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:07 AM   #13
David Orange
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
As others have said, I learn from watching those fights. I wish we had a UFC-trained fighter cross-training at our dojo, it would be very educational.

While I would like to see a little more decorum in the ring, I recognize it for what it is and it doesn't really bother me.
There's nothing like a good dose of UFC to make you think twice about what you would really do if the chips were all the way down.

And as for decorum in the ring, yes, that would be good. But I prefer to see that macho posturing than to deal with some of the kinds of behavior I've met in aikido organizations--public decorum, but old-lady gossip in private messages; public decorum, but salacious rumor-mongering in private; no competition, but finger-wagging preaching about other teachers or systems, etc., etc., etc.

The reason most of the real fighters are so humble is that they have learned what it is to lose sometimes. In aikido, there is the saying that there is no winning or losing, but in the same sense, we always "win" and that can create a very dangerous false sense of security and ability. Everyone needs to lose from time to time and there's nothing like seeing a UFC fight (or rolling with a talented grappler) to make us realize we can lose.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 12-09-2007, 11:11 AM   #14
David Orange
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
University aikido clubs, under the supervision (albeit distant) of one or another shihan are cesspools of brutality and dominance hierarchy orders that would not be acceptable in a rhesus monkey population.
I'll never forget a guy who came to the yoseikan from a university club. He was a great guy, sincere, dedicated, good to train with. But he told me a horrible story: when he was in his university club, as early hazing, some of his seniors wrestled him down and held him while one guy pulled his pants down and digitally applied Tiger Balm...in an unbelievable place....

Maybe the Junior Colleges weren't as bad. I knew a guy who taught at a junior college and his students used to come to the hombu very often. They were all very good people. I never saw any really bad behavior out of them, but there is always the potential in the right atmosphere....

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 12-10-2007, 07:08 AM   #15
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: UFC at a glance

What the hell goes on in Japan that they allow arm-breaking? I thought you were not supposed to injure your fellow practitioners or they won't come back. Or is that only for american dojos?
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:59 AM   #16
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Re: UFC at a glance

UFC is ok, but I yearn for the good 'ol days of kickboxing, Bill "superfoot" Wallace vintage.
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Old 12-10-2007, 11:32 AM   #17
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Re: UFC at a glance

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=41PQ7CG6

Skip to about 8 minutes in and watch the video from there. Two top notch fighters at the top of their division in the UFC, and they are both all class. That was just the first example that came off the top of my head. Most fighters in the UFC, and MMA guys that I workout with regularly are by and large, very humble dudes. More so, I would say, than a lot of Aikido practitioners. Saying that all MMA fighters are chest-thumpers is painting with a pretty broad brush. It's kind of like when MMA types say Aikido is practiced by a bunch of mystic ki-faeries. It just ain't true.

Keith Lee
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:50 PM   #18
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Re: UFC at a glance

All of the previews and such that I have seen on TV have been on Spike TV. Spike has a tendency to over emasculate (is that a word?) pretty much anything and everything except the one program I tune to that channel to watch; Star Trek.

Even with that factor taken into consideration, much of the footage I have seen fake or not has been pretty gladiator in aggressiveness.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:01 PM   #19
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Re: UFC at a glance

Erik I think as with most things "at a glance" will not give you much of a true insight into reality.

At a glance Aikido is a bunch of fairies in dresses dancing around and falling down for no apparent reason.

At a glance doesn't count for much imo

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:58 AM   #20
roadster
 
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Erik I think as with most things "at a glance" will not give you much of a true insight into reality.

At a glance Aikido is a bunch of fairies in dresses dancing around and falling down for no apparent reason.

At a glance doesn't count for much imo
yup, that's why I have mentioned it over the past several posts.

I have received a lot of good feedback here on the topic.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:36 PM   #21
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Re: UFC at a glance

As a newbie to this site, I was wondering if such a thread was lying about here. Alas I found it. Allow me to express my views and experiences please. Training for "real life" and for SPORT, tend to be two different things. I have co workers that are MMA fighters. While I consider them very close friends, often times we get into debates over how one is trained. None of them had anything for Aikido/Jutsu/Budo. Meaning they thought they were complete enough with boxing, Jiu Jitsu, and Muai Tai in their arsenal. While on the outside, these things seem impressive, we have to keep in mind that they are very much trained with rules incorporated in them. I say this because I decided to take a few of them to the gym after work and would tell them to come get me any way they can. I am not saying I can beat any or all of them, I am saying you'd be surprised by the looks on their faces when they would get their fingers splayed, forearm across the bridge of the nose, or their wrists manipulated! Even today you will not find many with so much as a sliver of Aikido in their back round. I suspect this is due to mainly Aikido being a more "passive" form, and because of small joint manipulation. While it is apparent that Aikido has no place in the U.F.C., it helped my friends in understanding that anyone can be beat by anybody. It helped them with the all important foot movement, and to always remember that real life and sport are NOT the same thing. After their informal introduction to Aikido, they some how came to be more humble. Most of these guys are humble enough.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:51 AM   #22
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Re: UFC at a glance

in UFC 82 after the title bout between Anderson Silva and Dan Henderson Silva who kept the title went to everyone on Dan Henderson's team... humbly bowed to each one and then shook thier hand.

I am a big fan of the UFC and all I can say is 99% of them show allot of class and respect...

William Hazen

Pound for Pound Anderson Silva is the smartest and best MMA fighter in the world (Though Fedyor can claim that too) Even Dan Henderson could not last two rounds. What a match!
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:10 AM   #23
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Re: UFC at a glance

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
One of the best fights I ever saw was between two women fighters on the showtime version of the UFC. It was easily the best fight on the card that night.
Was one of those fighters Gina Carano, maybe? If so, I caught the rerun, and was pretty impressed.

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Old 03-05-2008, 10:37 AM   #24
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Re: UFC at a glance

I think so, it's been a while now. Two real fighters, good spirit, and seemed like good folk too. It wasn't just their skill that impressed me...how they comported themselves in and out of the ring was what caught my attention.

Best,
Ron

PS just did a search, pretty sure these are the two...

http://www.ultimate-fighter.ca/Forum...ic.php?id=3291

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-05-2008 at 10:43 AM.

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Old 03-05-2008, 12:14 PM   #25
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Re: UFC at a glance

Our dojo has several arts under one roof and occasionally we'll run into the MMA folks, they're all real nice people. One night a week we also share the mat with the Muay Thai group. The nature of their training is loud but they are all very nice, respectful people.

My problem with the UFC is a little different from others. When I want to be entertained by violence I want VIOLENCE. So I propose some new rules for a UFC type venue. Not to replace what is out there but I figure both can co-exist peacefully.

My new rules (these are off the top of my head btw )

1) two 30 second rounds

2) you can only win by knock-out or submission

3) winner takes all the prize money loser gets spit on by the crowd

4) if there is no winner you are both losers and both get spit on by the crowd.

5) if you win in the first 10 seconds of either round you get the full prize money. For every 5 seconds past the first 10 the size of the prize starts dropping.

I think if we institute rules like this we can have spectactular displays of explosive violence.

No more of people jumping to guard! No more ground and pound! No more taking time to size up or feel out your opponent! We the people have spoken! We want BLOOD!! We want eye balls shooting into the crowd! We want frenzied warriors with the entrails their fallen foes trailing from their teeth! We want an orgy of dismemberment and decapitation!!!

WE WANT ENTERTAINMENT!!!!!!!!

It will, I believe, be epic.

Bronson

p.s. I forgot about the random packs of wild dogs... can't forget those.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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