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Old 12-07-2007, 09:29 AM   #76
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
The reason I believe an MMA guy would possibly do better (in theory) is because they are used to fighting
Darin,
I gotta disagree with this statement. In my admittedly limited experience, I've never seen a practitioner of MMA as we know it take on any more than one opponent at a time. Videos of Aikidoka training for a multiple opponent scenario are widespread and readily available. In this situation there were six guys (probably with at least a couple blades, brass knuckles, etc.) who were down to fight given proper provocation. I hate to think what the other five guys would be doing to a person who tried to put one of their group into a submission hold. I don't want this thread to become another Aikido v. MMA knockdown dragout. The only reason I feel this is valid is because Roman mentioned both arts in the original post.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:27 AM   #77
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Oh, please... mixed martial arts is rife with testosterone driven alpha males...
Compassionate and equanimous statement. Pure Aiki.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:38 AM   #78
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Compassionate and equanimous statement. Pure Aiki.
Yea but he's completely right....

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:59 AM   #79
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Darin,
I gotta disagree with this statement. In my admittedly limited experience, I've never seen a practitioner of MMA as we know it take on any more than one opponent at a time. Videos of Aikidoka training for a multiple opponent scenario are widespread and readily available. In this situation there were six guys (probably with at least a couple blades, brass knuckles, etc.) who were down to fight given proper provocation. I hate to think what the other five guys would be doing to a person who tried to put one of their group into a submission hold. I don't want this thread to become another Aikido v. MMA knockdown dragout. The only reason I feel this is valid is because Roman mentioned both arts in the original post.
I've never seen video of an aikidoka training for a multiple opponent scenario. I've seen lots of videos of aikido randori/kakari-geiko, wherein multiple uke take turns giving vague, unfocused kinda grabbing/kinda punching lunges at tori, and then fall down when tori makes some kind of kokyu-nage type movement. I've seen some wonderful demonstrations of aikido, but they always lose me when the randori starts. If anyone knows of some video that shows really good randori, let me know. So far, Ueshiba's 1936 film is the best I've seen.

Incidently, while grappling is of course part of MMA, there's a reason it's called mixed. It includes throws, strikes, and kicks. MMA matches sometimes end by knockout. An MMA practitioner would hardly have to expose himself to attacks from five other guys so he could choke out one.

To keep this relatively on-topic...
Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Well, yes, but sometimes walking away quickly is one very good means of resolution of a conflict among many. And having gone to a rather, um, less than pleasant high school I would say that trying to pull the thing Dobson saw on a train when surrounded by a group of young men out looking for trouble would be a good solid beating (or worse) waiting to happen. So would attacking. So would posturing. So would most anything *other than* walking away and letting it go.

FWIW I understood what the OP meant when he wrote it. Not terribly precise, but I got it. What if he had written "Lessons learned from Aikido" instead. And said he took the aikido approach of diffusing the situation by simply walking away. Of course that isn't exclusive to aikido, but it *is* part of the philosophical discussions that usually go on within it. Shodo-o-seisu is sometimes taking the initiative by walking away. That becomes controlling the situation. Masakatsu agatsu can be simply letting it go and realizing that a cheap set of headphones isn't worth a physical confrontation with a gang of young men no matter how your pride is hurt or offended you may be.
The problem is, here the young men let him walk away. What if they didn't? Was the situation diffused when Roman walked way or when the six guys decided not to pursue things further, and perhaps take his walkman/mp3 player, etc? And my comparison to the Dobson story was not to say that that's what Roman should have done, but simply that that's an example of utilizing uniquely aiki principles in a conflict.

Quote:
I don't see the big deal.
That's because there is no big deal. Just some folks interested in aikido respectfully hashing out some thoughts on aikido. No one's demanding that Roman change the title of the thread, or apologize or anything like that. We're just talking about aikido.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:16 AM   #80
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Not again....

Where can I buy the popcorn and milkduds...

I'll take a seat in the back row too... I have seen this movie quite a few times.

William Hazen
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #81
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I'll take a seat in the back row too... I have seen this movie quite a few times.

William Hazen
I suppose there are a few similarities to Rashomon!

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:41 AM   #82
Keith Larman
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
The problem is, here the young men let him walk away. What if they didn't? Was the situation diffused when Roman walked way or when the six guys decided not to pursue things further, and perhaps take his walkman/mp3 player, etc? And my comparison to the Dobson story was not to say that that's what Roman should have done, but simply that that's an example of utilizing uniquely aiki principles in a conflict.
No argument from me, but given how the situation came about once the OP realized he was in a really bad situation he remained calm and collected enough to simply walk away. He didn't stand there like a deer in the headlights like most would. He didn't escalate the situation either by puffing up and trying to intimidate. He didn't stand there and try to make friends with 6 fellas who very likely would have simply seen that as a sign of weakness and escalated the attack to include more property/personal injury. He walked away and got out of harm's way. Something that I would say was quite a sensible thing to do given the situation.

The point I think he was trying to make is that his training in aikido helped him deal with the situation. Calling all that "aiki" is a bit of a stretch, but I've had sensei talk about "aiki" in a very large sense of "oneness" with everything around you to encompass taking in the full gist of a situation. Sure, we can call that situational awareness or whatever, but in the larger context of aikido training including all those philosohpical ideals we talk about we hope that we and our students develop that sort of mindset. And remain calm, centered, and "at one" with the situation so they see it for what it is without too much distortion from ego, anger, surprise, whatever.

Anyway, I mostly just wanted to say I thought he did the right thing and if his aikido training is what it is he credits with being able to stay clear and focused and get out of the situation, more power to him.

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Old 12-07-2007, 11:59 AM   #83
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I've never seen video of an aikidoka training for a multiple opponent scenario. I've seen lots of videos of aikido randori/kakari-geiko, wherein multiple uke take turns giving vague, unfocused kinda grabbing/kinda punching lunges at tori, and then fall down when tori makes some kind of kokyu-nage type movement.
But, randori is training for a multiple opponent scenario, so if you've seen a video of randori, then you've seen an aikidoka training for that scenario. In your opinion, the Randori you have observed is inadequate, inferior and unrealistic training for that type of situation, but that doesn't change what it is. It may not be the perfect way to train for this type of thing, but it's got to be better than not training with multiple attackers at all, however. As far as I can tell, randori is alot about strategy and generalship, distance and positioning which is more important than individual techniques when fighting a group than when fighting an individual one on one.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:26 PM   #84
Marc Abrams
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Hey William:

They put too much salt in my popcorn! If only they had the aiki-spirit at the popcorn stand, then I wouldn't have to ask to have it my way, they would already know. Do you know what the vegas odds are on the outcome of this movie?

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:40 PM   #85
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Hey William:

They put too much salt in my popcorn! If only they had the aiki-spirit at the popcorn stand, then I wouldn't have to ask to have it my way, they would already know. Do you know what the vegas odds are on the outcome of this movie?

Marc Abrams
oh boy, I guess i'm asking for it, but here goes anyhow...

huh?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:58 PM   #86
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
oh boy, I guess i'm asking for it, but here goes anyhow...

huh?
The thread is/was starting to gravitate into another forum death match between the League of MMA Viking Gods and the Aikido Samurai Ninja Clan.

William Hazen
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:09 PM   #87
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Yea but he's completely right....
Can i be compasionate, equanimous and completely right, too?
(Hint: I'm watching some interesting video clips hosted in your website)

Respecting other people's approach to martial arts practise won't hurt you and can also can lead to have your approach respected also, even if there are disagreements about what is martial arts practise about.
(fill here with a lot of friendly smilies)
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:24 PM   #88
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can i be compasionate, equanimous and completely right, too?
(Hint: I'm watching some interesting video clips hosted in your website)

Respecting other people's approach to martial arts practise won't hurt you and can also can lead to have your approach respected also, even if there are disagreements about what is martial arts practise about.
(fill here with a lot of friendly smilies)
I spent several years studying BJJ, and before AIkido I did Hapkido and other arts, intermixed with other stuff, some of it pretty nasty.... I was around the BJJ world earlier on and met a lot of the early UFC fighters here and there - I've seen the whole thing evolve - simply put, my experience matches what George said. I wasn't commenting on what you said per se just affirming what he did.

For what it's worth, I didn 't say alll....


Last edited by Aiki1 : 12-07-2007 at 01:27 PM.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:26 PM   #89
Keith Larman
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can i be compasionate, equanimous and completely right, too?
(Hint: I'm watching some interesting video clips hosted in your website)

Respecting other people's approach to martial arts practise won't hurt you and can also can lead to have your approach respected also, even if there are disagreements about what is martial arts practise about.
(fill here with a lot of friendly smilies)
Just fwiw I have a few friends who are seriously into MMA. One or two *are* a bit overloaded on the testosterone side and do have a very bad habit of looking for trouble -- can't waste all that training, right? They're young and stupid IMHO. The MMA doesn't have a monopoly on that either, btw.

But on the other hand most of them are *fully* aware that a big honking fight isn't all that pleasant physically and a lot can go wrong (which I think was the original point, ya?). And as such tend to be a bit more cautious about getting into unnecessary scuffles than those with the sort of enlighted confidence in their martial prowess who've never actually been on the receiving end of a good, solid cheap shot... :P

Most experienced martial artists regardless of style who've ever really tangled with another person tend to stay out of trouble if they've got any brains at all. I've been hit very hard a few times, once or twice in really bad situations many years ago. I found that can deal with it, I can continue to function, but I *really* don't like it and *really* don't want to get hit like that. That insight is not an exclusive insight to any one group.

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Old 12-07-2007, 02:02 PM   #90
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

I appreciate all the advice and feedback I've received here, though I must admit I am disappointed an a bit let down at how members of the community I respect have switched to the now repeating trait of commenting on mma in a bad manner. It seems with today's popularity of mma, it is impossible to have a thread where mma will not be bad mouthed out of ignorance or some other cause, in some way. Once again, Aikido is thrown out as the "superior" art because they "train" for multiple opponents.

People are not controlled by thier martial arts of choosing...and all people are a work in progress, especially young people. I have been lucky to have met and trained with MMA guys who were all kind and peaceful guys. And the guys that weren't didn't stick around for long. (I even have trouble re-calling any at all in the first place)

If someone noticed my posting has stopped lately, it's because of the growing attitude problem on this forum.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 12-07-2007 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:16 PM   #91
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Don, you... who is next?
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:17 PM   #92
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Hi Roman,

I for one disagree with some of the characterizations of MMA. I too think we should be very carefull about how we categorize the participants in that sport / art. I enjoy watching their events, and even training with the odd person or two who find their way into an aikido dojo who have exerience with that skill set.

Please have a little patience with us as we grow up...

Best,
Ron

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Old 12-07-2007, 02:40 PM   #93
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post

I for one disagree with some of the characterizations of MMA. I too think we should be very carefull about how we categorize the participants in that sport / art. I enjoy watching their events, and even training with the odd person or two who find their way into an aikido dojo who have exerience with that skill set.

Please have a little patience with us as we grow up...
I second that.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:02 PM   #94
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

I personally enjoy and respect MMA. Every martial art has its good points and bad points. The only way to be the best at it is to learn them all. The UFC/Pride guys just put their knowledge to the test. But I do see why aikido folks put it down since the basis of the art is to maintain peace and harmony. Why do you think there is no such thing as aikido sparring or aikido matches?
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:30 PM   #95
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Anyway, I mostly just wanted to say I thought he did the right thing and if his aikido training is what it is he credits with being able to stay clear and focused and get out of the situation, more power to him.
I agree. I think that he feels his aikido training helped him. That's it and that's all. I, for one, know that my training helps me to deal with angry people in a completely different way than before I started training, whether they have their finger in my face or they're yelling at me over the phone.

Regarding MMA, I do have a problem with the hotheads that talk trash about the guys they're going to compete against. I also take issue with the people that do this in boxing, tennis or anything else under the sun. If competitors show good sportsmanship, there will more than likely be screaming parents on the sidelines. I've even met a jerk or two in my years of aikido.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:54 PM   #96
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Peace and Harmony is always an interesting subject!

For it to happen, it requires people with different agendas, goals, expectations etc....to take the time to understand and appreciate the differences and variations in how others choose to live their life and spend their time.

It requires overlooking the differences and finding the common thread amongst people, not judging them based on our own preconceptions and limited experiences to what we see on TV, experience through brief observations or limited encounters.

We certainly don't judge whole categories based on our exposure and experiences to a small subset!

I always find it quite interesting that there are so many in the art of aikido...an art that supposedly has a high affinity toward acheiving that goal....

Yet will make such bold, over arching and categorical assumptions about what is and isn't right or wrong...based on the precieved value system that somehow places all that is aiki on a higher moral ground!

I typically find that those that make statements about people that align themselves with that which is lumped together as MMA as being too narrow focused, sport and game focused, that it does not deal well with multiple opponents...have never spent much time in that art...and have spent most of their time in aikido!

I think it is very easy to close off your world in the art of aikido, start looking at yourself detached from everything else that is not aikido...and then judge everything through that filter!

It is the very thing that aikido SHOULD be breaking down!

I think to be aiki...is to go out and embrace the world, experience it, and figure out how to reconcile those experiences!

I have been following this thread for the past couple of days.

Roman,

Appreciate your honesty and being open to share a time in your life when you were not "on your game" and share the lesson of keeping your ego in check at a critcal point!

I am glad you did not get hurt.

I am glad that you made a mistake, shared it with us, and learned a lesson.

In this, I find much that is aiki!

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Old 12-07-2007, 11:32 PM   #97
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Lighten up yourself.
Hey, I don't blend so well myself most of the time!

I will do as you suggest and

Lighten up myself,
and not be no drag,
lighten up myself,
cause Aiki is another bag!...


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Old 12-08-2007, 07:02 AM   #98
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How you train in the dojo influences your reactions outside the dojo. If I had been training in TKD at that time my reaction would have been to meet the perceived attacker head on as that was the way we trained when I was in TKD.

David
I'm 4th DAN in TKD and trained in it 4 20+ years prior to starting Aikido. I'm confident in my skills, but i'm not stupid. I, like Roman, would have walked(or ran) away if I had the opportunity. Martial awareness is not limited to Aikido and to suggest that TKD's philosophy is to meet all treats or attackers "head on" is inaccurate IMHO.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:27 AM   #99
Marc Abrams
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

I second Ron's comments:

I LOVE watching MMA on tv. As an ex-wrestler, if it had existed when I retired from wrestling, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have picked that sport up. I love playing on the mats with people from any fighting sports or arts. I appreciate the positives and negatives that all of them have to offer.

Roman's incident had precious little to do with martial arts. No one art or sport is "complete." "Do" means "a path", not "THE PATH".

Marc Abrams

ps.- William, tell the guys in the back row to shut-up, they are ruining our movie watching experience.
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:51 AM   #100
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Re: Partial sucess with Aikido on "the street"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I will think this out as soon as I finish work. It's certainly a valid question. But to begin, arts overlap in reality, so the answer might not be that it is Just Aikido, but perhaps, included in Aikido....
You must work some wicked hours Larry! I've been to work and back several times already, not to mention a couple parties! Or are you demonstrating the aiki of avoidance that I've been reading about in this thread?

(that was meant to be light hearted by the way, not mean spirited, sometimes my amazing wit is misinterpreted on teh interw3bs)

Chris Moses
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