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Old 12-14-2001, 01:23 AM   #1
unsound000
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Throwing and focus

Lately in my throws, I've been trying to focus more on my hands. I imagine that there is energy or ki or whatever flowing out of them as I do the throw. I can notice a difference. I was wondering if anyone else did anything like this and do you know of any other "mind tricks" to help with techniques?

Thanx.
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Old 12-14-2001, 05:33 AM   #2
L. Camejo
 
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Cool Mind over matter

Hi Jon,

I do a similar mind thing sometimes, but I tend to focus my mind on my centre (seika tanden), imagining it to be something like an energy generator. I then project that energy through my back, hips and legs to stabilise and through my arms and hands to apply atemi or technique.

It gets some interesting results against resistance sometimes

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-19-2001, 07:14 PM   #3
j0nharris
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Takuan, the zen master, in his writings to a sword master, told him (parapharased) that the mind should not be in the hands, because your can become stuck there. Nor should it be in your opponents weapon for the same reason.

The mind, he says, should be nowhere.....
Admittedly, I have no idea quite how to do that, except in long drawn out meetings with obtuse clients .

I suspect that this idea of the mind being nowhere, and hence everywhere, is along the lines of O'Sensei saying that when we are in harmony we stand at the center of the universe and can clearly see our opponents' intentions (or something like that anyway....) before they even strike.

I'll get back to you in about 50 years and let you know how I'm coming with this one.

-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 12-23-2001, 03:33 AM   #4
unsound000
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Re: Mind over matter

Actually, this is the exact exercise that I had read about. I just abreviated too much. This seems to contradict what Jon is saying though. If we put our mind at one point though, then perhaps we do "stand in the centre of the universe". Maybe that is nowhere...or just something to do during boring meetings.

Quote:
Originally posted by L. Camejo
Hi Jon,

I do a similar mind thing sometimes, but I tend to focus my mind on my centre (seika tanden), imagining it to be something like an energy generator. I then project that energy through my back, hips and legs to stabilise and through my arms and hands to apply atemi or technique.

It gets some interesting results against resistance sometimes

L.C.
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Old 12-23-2001, 07:49 AM   #5
Thalib
 
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No-throw principle...

I, personally, try to keep away from the concept of throwing - it's a bit like what Harris-san was saying.

I only try to concentrate on my center, the unification of mind and body, the extension of ki (still trying to figure this one out), and the non-existence of outside interference.

My mind was nowhere yet everywhere, it's actually quite an intoxicating feeling (no... I was not on drugs). My partner felt quite light, as if he was not there, and we have agreed to attack as real and as strong as possible (using the unification of mind and body along with the extension of ki if possible).

Too bad, I can't reach this state of mind too often. I still have an agressive spirit inside, a spirit that wants to fight everything around me, a violent spirit. Still trying to find a resolution.

Last edited by Thalib : 12-23-2001 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 12-23-2001, 03:16 PM   #6
Jonathan
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My shihan explained that power in throwing comes from a unified effort of one's body. This isn't a rigid, muscular effort, but a relaxed extension that employs legs, hips, torso, and arms all at once. This extension is timed to one's breathing. It is also often highly concentrated or focused in one place and moment -- as in yonkyo, for instance. I find the biggest impediment to functioning this way is a lack of mental focus. To remedy this I sometimes close my eyes when throwing (after connection is made to uke) and in my mind's eye visualize ki extension from my center outward toward uke. I also exaggerate my breathing. One other thing I find very useful is to continue to extend at uke after connection in a throw is broken. Like follow through in a baseball pitch but with intense extension of mind. Doing this always improves my throwing force. Throwing uke as far as I can in kotegaeshi, instead of pinning, is my favorite way of practicing these things. Its alot of fun! Fortunately, I've got some great uke at the dojo who don't mind "air time".

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 12-23-2001, 04:51 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by j0nharris
Takuan, the zen master, in his writings to a sword master, told him (parapharased) that the mind should not be in the hands, because your can become stuck there. Nor should it be in your opponents weapon for the same reason.
Of course these zen masters did not face a big ugly guy with a sword. One of those great unprovable theories.

If the guy wins he understood the teaching.
If the guy looses he wasn't ready.

Feeling cheeky today.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-24-2001, 06:56 AM   #8
Anat Amitay
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ki flow

you were saying that you feel ki flowing out of your hands in certain techniques. That is something logical, you have a certain intention and you're focusing it to your uke.
i read what the other aikidoka wrote and agree with most. i actually want to add another espect of this ki feeling.
in lots of techniques I find that in the places where you can stop and let uke return to balance (as a practise) you can traise the ki flow from your center to his through your connection and with that done you will be able to "see" exactly where to move in order to take uke off balance again. it can also be done in the simplest of things like Ten Kan.
i'm not sure i was understood clearly, but i hope you'll be able to make sense out of it

hope i managed to help.
Anat
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Old 01-01-2002, 09:00 PM   #9
unsound000
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Re: ki flow

I read this. Came back a couple weeks later and read it again. Now, I understand. That's a great exercise and one that I will try. Now, sometimes when I am throwing this one person in my dojo, they will stick their butt out to stop my kazushi. The throw does not come off or they just roll on their side.
Does this mean that I am just not getting the kazushi right? or is it more that my uke is stopping the flow of the ki by resisting? When we use muscle to counter, is that also ki?



Quote:
Originally posted by Anat Amitay
you were saying that you feel ki flowing out of your hands in certain techniques. That is something logical, you have a certain intention and you're focusing it to your uke.
i read what the other aikidoka wrote and agree with most. i actually want to add another espect of this ki feeling.
in lots of techniques I find that in the places where you can stop and let uke return to balance (as a practise) you can traise the ki flow from your center to his through your connection and with that done you will be able to "see" exactly where to move in order to take uke off balance again. it can also be done in the simplest of things like Ten Kan.
i'm not sure i was understood clearly, but i hope you'll be able to make sense out of it

hope i managed to help.
Anat
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Old 01-02-2002, 01:00 AM   #10
Anat Amitay
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now let me see...

I just read your reply and have a few things to say.
first of all, if someone "sticks his butt out" he (or she) better have a good reason to test you (most high ranking students try to test each other in order to improve their movement. doing this to a new student is very bad. he still doesn't have the basic understanding of the whole technique and will be frustrated when finding himself blocked all the time. so "giving a hard time" should be more for advanced students or when a student asks it to learn more about himself).
If they are not trying to test you, they are not doing aikido and that means you don't have to either- my meaning, doing what they are, is changing the technique that is being practiced, so if they change it, you can just change what you're doing too. Don't forget that giving it a "truer" look- if it was real combat, their movement to block your technique opens them up and an atemi can be put in or a change of technique.
Please don't think me as hostile or mean to my fellow aikidoka,but if someone is unfair there is no reason to be fair with him, of course I'm NOT talking about causeing damage or hurting.
You might be doing your technique correctly, or not, I can't judge over the computer, but as I said in the begining, if you are at a stage to start improving the basic technique, you should let uke block you and find the way to overcome that block (moving faster, keeping uke off balance and finding the right distance between you so he can't regain it etc...)
Uke can stop the flow of ki by resisting, but it's not very aikido fasion. On the other hand, uke will not be able to stop ki flow if you test yourself again and again and find the right way to accomplish your move, as I said in the last paragraph.
Of course learning all this can take years, because each new uke will be different and might block you in a different part of the technique. Each uke has different flexibility that allows him (or her) a better range of movement or control, but in most cases, after lots of training you will find a certain way to take out your technique without anyone being able to stop, block it.
Useing muscles is not the idea of aikido or use of ki (at least that's how I see it) useing muscles is getting tensed and that's just the opposite of aikido where you have to flow and be calm. I don't think muscles are a way to use ki.
Doing an atemi is a form of muscle use and extending of ki, but aikido uses atemi as a form of attack on which the aikidoka learns how to neutrelize.
I hope I managed to help.
By the way, if I don't aswer fast, don't think I'm not paying attention, I'm not very frequently at the computer.
Cheers
Anat
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Old 01-02-2002, 03:28 AM   #11
Tim Griffiths
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Re: Re: ki flow

Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000
I read this. Came back a couple weeks later and read it again. Now, I understand. That's a great exercise and one that I will try. Now, sometimes when I am throwing this one person in my dojo, they will stick their butt out to stop my kazushi. The throw does not come off or they just roll on their side.
Does this mean that I am just not getting the kazushi right? or is it more that my uke is stopping the flow of the ki by resisting? When we use muscle to counter, is that also ki?
Maybe, Maybe, No, in that order.

I agree with Anat, to some extent (as always). For the record
I *always* give her a hard time (not so she can learn, just
to annoy her).

If you're doing it right the technique will work i.e. you'll
either throw uke *or* he'll block it and create another
opening. How uke falls is up to him - if he likes landing
on his ass then let him. You said he was landing on
his side - that sounds like you're throwing him ok, if
not particularly powerfully. Usually the more powerfully
the technique is done, the harder it is to block.

If he blocks it you have a choice - you can either change
the technique, do it a lot faster/harder or stop at that point.
If someone knows the technique you're going to do, they
can usually stop it, or make it difficult for you to do. This
is aikido - don't waste time fighting. Feel for the right
way to move (it may be in the same way you were, just
with more power). And no - if you respond with muscle
to counter him, you're not using ki, or doing aikido,
anymore.

Not every technique is applicable in every situation. We're
training here. For example, imagine I'm a tennis player,
and I want to practice my backhand, an important skill
to have. If my partner constantly hits the ball to my right
side (and I'm right-handed) I can't do it - I can't practice
what I need to learn. Its a valid thing to do on his part,
but no help in trying to learn what I want to. A lot of
awkward uke are like this - they give you something
that in real life you would handle differently. That's
why this is aikido *practice*.

Tim
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Old 01-03-2002, 03:01 AM   #12
unsound000
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Re: now let me see...

I'm not in my first week of throwing people so I see this uke as helpful actually. It sounds like they are just narrowing my window of opportunity so that my kazushi and timing must be "perfect". It's not so bad that they will go flying backwards if I let them go
It's just that I want to improve my technique with ki and not by fighting. I'm just not sure what happens to the ki when they counter. Maybe I'm trying to let it control my actions too much instead of controlling it. I don't know.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anat Amitay

You might be doing your technique correctly, or not, I can't judge over the computer, but as I said in the begining, if you are at a stage to start improving the basic technique, you should let uke block you and find the way to overcome that block (moving faster, keeping uke off balance and finding the right distance between you so he can't regain it etc...)
Anat
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Old 01-03-2002, 08:17 AM   #13
Anat Amitay
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Re: Re: now let me see...

Hi again!
This time I'm not going to be that long!
You were saying that you don't really know what happens to the ki when your uke counters.
Well, it's just there, it only needs a new 'path' in which to flow.
I'll try to give an example but I'm not sure it's the best.
Think of having a slope (down hill), and you have water running at a steady pace. the water will go down the slope in the easiest and fastest way it could get to the bottom. Now, if you put an obsticle in the waters way, it will first be 'stopped' and then will find a way and continue through it to the bottom.
So, we're not talking about gravity force and the direction down (not always), but the ki also has a way to flow, always. You just need to find it. If you're being blocked, the direction the ki is flowing has been changed, but it's there, as long as the technique continues and up until the end (lock, fall, roll...)

Anat
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Old 01-03-2002, 12:02 PM   #14
[Censored]
 
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Now, sometimes when I am throwing this one person in my dojo, they will stick their butt out to stop my kazushi. The throw does not come off or they just roll on their side.
Does this mean that I am just not getting the kazushi right?


If they want to resist by sticking their butt out, then kick them in the butt. In for a dime, in for a dollar, I say.

or is it more that my uke is stopping the flow of the ki by resisting? When we use muscle to counter, is that also ki?

Flow may be considered ki. Muscle may be considered ki. But more importantly, "with ki" does not mean "good". Except in the Ki Society, perhaps.
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