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Old 11-21-2007, 09:04 PM   #1
dps
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Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm

"Audatia, as used by Fiore dei Liberi, refers to a virtue that the author considered central to his art. Audacity is a form of courage that allows for bold and decisive action, overcoming fear and hesitation. Without audacity, the fighter waits, unable to put knowledge into action, and he becomes passive in the fight. By cultivating an audacious combative style, the martial artist is more likely to see victory. "

by Dr. Charles H. Hackney

David

Last edited by dps : 11-21-2007 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:23 AM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Audacity is on of the principles of combat that all U.S. Army Infantry leaders learn when we are going through training. Others are things like Suprise, steath, speed....things like that.

I always like audacity because it allows one to think outside of the box . Many battles have been won by people by valuing audacity above others, especially when faced by a force of overwhelming numbers, strength, or technology!

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Old 11-22-2007, 09:30 AM   #3
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I always like audacity because it allows one to think outside of the box .
Oh man, there's a box.
How come no one ever tells me these things?
Yes, wisdom is knowing when to have the reserve to stay in the box when appropriate and when to have the audacity to just do what needs to be done, the way it needs to be done, when its needed to be done, and to realize you are the person to do it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:35 AM   #4
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Audacity is on of the principles of combat that all U.S. Army Infantry leaders learn ... Many battles have been won by people by valuing audacity above others, especially when faced by a force of overwhelming numbers, strength, or technology!
The etymological root of "audacia" = [reckless] bravery, is related to "avidus" = avid = "pursuing with fervent desire" showing some purely Western parallels to O Sensei's view of love as the root of budo.
FWIW.

L'Audace! Toujours l'audace!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:59 AM   #5
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Audacity is on of the principles of combat that all U.S. Army Infantry leaders learn when we are going through training. Others are things like Suprise, steath, speed....things like that.

I always like audacity because it allows one to think outside of the box . Many battles have been won by people by valuing audacity above others, especially when faced by a force of overwhelming numbers, strength, or technology!
Great Post Sir...

The Ranger Creed need I say more. LOL

Audacity in and of itself can be dangerous however...Witness "The Charge of the Light Brigade"...Pickett's Charge..."Elan!"... The Somme... BANZAI and other Military disasters...In and of itself it must be mitigated in context with other basic Military/Martial Tactical and Strategic Principles or you risk your own destruction.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-22-2007 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:58 PM   #6
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Yes, this point was pretty much driven home daily in Ranger School for sure! I have lots of war stories as I am sure you do to where Audacity both helped and hurt! One of mine that comes to mind when I tried to replace a broken sling rope by cutting another one in half. Forgot to whip the ends first, and...well the RI found out and that was not fun!

Anyway, Lynn and you are obviously correct in that respect about having the wisdom to know when to use it and when not to!

When I think about audacity in aikido, Randori comes to mind. Some how, it seems that I always default to that as a strategy and it doesn't really go over very well from an aiki standpoint!

Audacity may work in real life, but some how it seems to get in the way of development in aiki

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Old 11-22-2007, 09:20 PM   #7
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Interesting. I've always thought about it in terms of *when* you decide to act, you act decisively and completely. It's not always easy to know when act, but when you do, do it with full spirit... Nothing half-baked as my dad used to say... Do it or don't do it. There is no in between.

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Old 11-23-2007, 05:16 AM   #8
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
When I think about audacity in aikido, Randori comes to mind. Some how, it seems that I always default to that as a strategy and it doesn't really go over very well from an aiki standpoint!

Audacity may work in real life, but some how it seems to get in the way of development in aiki
How so?

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Old 11-23-2007, 06:28 AM   #9
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

I often think of it as intent and initiative.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-23-2007, 07:44 AM   #10
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

How so?

To me in randori the intent is to exercise control, balance, and precision under the duress that randori creates. I try to downplay size, confusion, chaos, and big bold moves that may look like a chicken running around the barnyard avoiding being caught by the farmer.

Usually after the first couple of irimi/tenkans....I will usually start punching, kicking, using size, heavy intent, big bold moves to slow uke down and then deal with the next one.

I might run "out of bounds" look for a chair, push people around in he way etc.

Things that are not usually a part of the intent of randori. I have no issue with them in real life, but during randori I believe we are training something else.

At least that is my take on it!

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Old 11-23-2007, 07:45 AM   #11
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

I also agree with Lynn on that level. Intent and conveying it is also a big part of audacity on a more subtle level.

Giving someone the "crazy eye" maybe

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Old 11-23-2007, 08:44 AM   #12
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Couldn't audacity in the hands of the wrong person be considered an extention of one's ego?
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:56 PM   #13
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Lack of audacity, in the hands of the wrong person, can be considered an extension of ego too.

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Old 11-23-2007, 03:31 PM   #14
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

After reading, I would propose audacity to be almost Aiki in a raw state. The exercise of some seemingly unrelated action (as seen from the opponent) at the right time and place can trigger a desired effect or reaction, leading toward the audacious having a disproportionate influence on their subject the opponent

we try to get in touch with audacity, and then polish off the rough edges. meanwhile I have a misbehaving aikidoka trying to edit my post as I type it. so i must be off cheerssanoigdsdjaklgfdagfda

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 11-23-2007, 09:23 PM   #15
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

From a military perspective, there are several princples of war.

Suprise, mass, economy of force, security, objective, legitimacy, offensive action, simplicity.

There are a few others that might be argued as well.

Audacity is applied when you take in account these principles and you sacrifice one or more of them to exploit a weakness in your enemy.

For example, you might attack with too small a force, if you know that he is out or low on ammunition and is fast asleep at 2 o'clock in the morning!

Audacity is typically based on information that you recieve that leads you to believe that it is better to attack with bold action THEN rather than waiting.

Sometimes it is better to fix bayonets and charge (check out the battle for little round top and Gettysburg for a good example of a audacious decision made in the heat of battle!)

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Old 11-23-2007, 09:28 PM   #16
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Demitrio wrote:

[quote][/QUOTELack of audacity, in the hands of the wrong person, can be considered an extension of ego too.

As one of my Ranger Instructors used to say: "Ranger, the key is to understand and know the difference between HOOAH and STUPID".

To translate:
Parachuting out of an aircraft on a military operation is HOOOAH.

BASE jumping drunk off the Empire State Building at night is stupid!

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Old 11-24-2007, 09:06 AM   #17
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

I've been really enjoying this thread. There are some great things being presented here...and the article was really cool! To add my two bits, I'd echo the idea that audacity equates to thinking outside the box, which on a side note, I really liked the implications of Lynn's remark about not being aware of the box to begin with. I think that ideally we should be looking at any situation organically; without preconceived notions getting in the way...I guess I'd say that a healthy amount of audacity allows us to prevent prior knowledge from obfuscating (my new favorite 10.00 word ) our perceptions of a situation...ie-we don't let the knowledge of our shortcomings get in the way of acting on our advantages. Interestingly enough, I think "bad audacity" usually includes allowing prior knowledge to obfuscate our percpetion. Most of the audacious I've known in my short time on this Earth were that way only because at some point life reinforced in them the idea that they should be as such. They have always been talented people; the only question that seemed to remain was to what degree their talents applied to any given situation.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:37 AM   #18
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
Couldn't audacity in the hands of the wrong person be considered an extention of one's ego?
Yes!
And that's GOOD.
M.Ueshiba was a huge egotist! (never mind what he might have *said* to the contrary)

This reminds me of an old thread here which I can't find ... somthing misheard as 'arrogance' used in training which helped the poster enormously. Well, that's what I remember anyway.
Maybe the original (lady?) poster can link to it?
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:27 PM   #19
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
As one of my Ranger Instructors used to say: "Ranger, the key is to understand and know the difference between HOOAH and STUPID".
I'm sure some rangers trained under a different instructror.


On the serious side.

Notice how the article writer points to the needed balance between audatia (courage) and other virtues like temperance, justice, and wisdom.

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Old 11-24-2007, 07:37 PM   #20
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Re: Reflections on audatia as a Martial Virtue

Matthew Gano wrote:

Quote:
To add my two bits, I'd echo the idea that audacity equates to thinking outside the box, which on a side note, I really liked the implications of Lynn's remark about not being aware of the box to begin with. I think that ideally we should be looking at any situation organically; without preconceived notions getting in the way...I guess I'd say that a healthy amount of audacity allows us to prevent prior knowledge from obfuscating (my new favorite 10.00 word ) our perceptions of a situation...ie-we don't let the knowledge of our shortcomings get in the way of acting on our advantages.
agreed. What I think is important is knowing yourself as best you can and preparing yourself as best you can, so when the situation arises you act as appropriately as you can.

I think Musashi talks a great deal about this in the book of 5 rings. Infact, i'd say the whole of the book is devoted to just this issue.

Demitrio, I know we are in semantic-ville now.

I'd say that audacity ENCOMPASSES courage, but is not courage. Audacity is an action which leverages one or more particular principles of action/war over others or in complete disregard for those principles. You abandon them in favor of exploiting a precieved weakness.

Certainly it takes courage.

I wouldn't say that audacity is a virture either like temperance or wisdom. It is a particular course of action that is chosen.

Maybe the opposite of audacity would be restraint?

Good discussion, and Demetrio...i'd say we are probably really just talking semantics now...but it does make for good conversation and thought in this area!

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