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Old 11-21-2007, 04:49 PM   #26
gregg block
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

I don't get it. I just know I love it. So I do it, every chance I get.. so in that sense maybe I do get it....a little.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:06 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Matthew,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I actually agreed with what you said (as far as I understood it). I like "humble audacity".

My question about Barrish Sensei was kind of tangential to your post. He seems like he would be very encouraging.

Conrad
Heheheh...sorry, I guess I'm a little insecure about my online communications .
I assume he would basically agree with the idea, but I've also been given the impression that he feels words often get in the way, or that they don't suffice when trying to articulate or understand Aikido. For some reason I can picture him smiling and shrugging as if to say, "sure, why not."
My interpretation of his teachings is that absolute dedication to the task at hand, whatever it may be, is central to Aiki training and that the "do" portion of Aikido implies this be extended to the rest of one's life as well. If I were to try and tie that into this thread a bit, I would say "getting it" falls in line with this kind of thing: pushing yourself to the brink of your understanding and ability so that new frontiers can be made.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:06 PM   #28
David Yap
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
... believing in yourself is perhaps the most important aspect of learning anything, be it Aikido or otherwise...
Be cautious though!! If one repeats a lie over and over again, one may believe that it is a truth. Same with instructions. Believe it or not, there are some McDojos with better sensible instructions than some legitimate dojos out there.

I strongly agree with Ron:
Quote:
Aikido (most forms of it anyway) has no competition to keep us honest, so we have to try hard to foster that ourselves.
Regards

David Y
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:43 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Be cautious though!! If one repeats a lie over and over again, one may believe that it is a truth. Same with instructions...
Well said.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:54 PM   #30
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

I like what George Ledyard had to say about it. I think getting it is realitive.

Realitive to the person or persons you are working with. I get more than some, less than many more.

Also, there are those that have a better grasp of various concepts and aspects than I do, and then somethings that I feel I have a better grasp on than others.

If I got it, or any one for that matter 100% or even more oft than not...(51%), then it would probably be a waste of my time going to the dojo and would make for a boring way to spend my life!

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Old 11-22-2007, 05:58 AM   #31
Peter Seth
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Hi David. Hope u are well and regards to all at your end.
Yes ive trained in that environment - then started to look at a 360 degree horizon instead of the 'path to perfection'. Didnt want to become a great technician - rather to absorb the 'art'. Saying that its a great way to learn the basics if there is an element of flexibility involved. (still do train in that environment sometimes to compare and contrast)
Pete
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:20 AM   #32
dps
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
At what rank (or time put in) do you think people generally start to achieve a level of proficiency in aikido where they can just do techniques without struggling to make them work or remember the details. I'm thinking of those folks who just seem to move naturally and comfortably without leaving a lot of openings and with a decent level of internal power (without necessarily being expert or master level).
Never. I don't think there will be a time I can just do techniques without struggling to make them work or remember the details.
At the least it is not a goal of mine. If there is no struggle there is no learning, no learning then I become bored with it.

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:50 AM   #33
Aikibu
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Wow I love all the comments. Great Thread.

Knowing how to paint is one thing...For Example...Creating Art is relative.... In trying to emulate most artists I see they reach a point where they develop a style of expression and then spend a life time painting. Their expressions of the creative muse morph... change... and grow over time...Acheiving Technical Mastery is easy...Learning to express the Art of Aikido (for me anyway) is based on the person and there are no limits to "getting it"

When Shoji Nishio said "We are Artist's... Using the tools of destruction to develop a peaceful way to express love and harmony within ourselves and others." I knew I found my path.

I get it now.

William Hazen
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Old 11-22-2007, 03:07 PM   #34
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
For some reason I can picture him smiling and shrugging as if to say, "sure, why not."
I can almost see the look on his face . . .
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Old 11-23-2007, 11:11 PM   #35
Dan Richards
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
At what rank (or time put in) do you think people generally start to achieve a level of proficiency in aikido where they can just do techniques without struggling to make them work or remember the details. I'm thinking of those folks who just seem to move naturally and comfortably without leaving a lot of openings and with a decent level of internal power (without necessarily being expert or master level).
It's been my experience that people can "start" to get into it after about three years of solid training. And by "solid" I mean two-hour training sessions 5+ times per week with at least a serious seminar once or twice a year. You specifically said, without necessarily being expert or master level, and I think that's fair enough. And you also said, "start." That's the level where Lynn commented you should see around shodan. A shodan is where entry into the "school" of a martial art "starts".

But it's like getting over the first big mountain. - let's call it Mt. Shodan. From there you get a much larger view. And what you see from this once-seemingly higher vista are of a lot of other very large mountains. : )

And in all the climbing and navigating are an endless pulsating series of "getting it" and "not getting it." Get it and forget it. Rinse and repeat.

Allan Watts commented on describing the universe: "The universe is fundamentally a system which creeps up on itself and then says BOO! and then it laughs at itself for jumping and you see everytime it does it it forgets that it did it before so it never becomes a bore."
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:06 AM   #36
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

I thought I had it once,
but the more I thought about it
I realized I didn't.

Whether I have it or not,
will ever get it or not,
its just the training for the training's sake.

There is no get it,
just the cyclic process of getting it,
losing it,
and finding it again.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:48 AM   #37
xuzen
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

People "get it" when in Randori (free sparring), they can effortlessly throw their sparring partner despite being resisted.

Based on my own definition... I have not "get it" yet most of the time.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:28 AM   #38
kironin
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Rupert's right. There is no "when" you get "it".
Basically I agree with what George said, but on a personal note, I know I get "it", but I am just never satisfied with what I get. I think it should be easily doable to START to get it around nikkyu or around two years of dedicated training. I think if after two years of dedicated training that you are not STARTING to get it then you need to look seriously at how you are training but this may be tough to evaluate since it's a process in which steps of progress are often hard to discern at the time and maybe only much later with hindsight do you realize what you were or were not getting. To quote an old book I just picked up because I discovered it in a friends library (Karate teacher).
Quote:
L. LeShan, How to Meditate:A Guide to Self-Discovery wrote:
To return to our analogy of the gymnasium, we do not expect to work and work at weights with no changes in our body until all at once our muscles pop up, our stomach flattens, and we look like Tarzan or Raquel Welch. We expect a rather long, slow, generally imperceptible change in the direction we wish.
A comment on the how, IMO too many students spend too much time training too fast. In a zone in which their are not able to actually learn anything new, just reinforcing what they have already learned and is already fixed in their cerebellum. Just using momentum or force as a band-aid on what is incorrect.

Last edited by kironin : 11-25-2007 at 09:32 AM.

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Old 11-26-2007, 04:10 PM   #39
Dyryke
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
We seem to all agree that rank is somewhat artificial and fairly relative. Given that limitation of rank as a comparison, I'm interested in people's response to the following question:

At what rank (or time put in) do you think people generally start to achieve a level of proficiency in aikido where they can just do techniques without struggling to make them work or remember the details. I'm thinking of those folks who just seem to move naturally and comfortably without leaving a lot of openings and with a decent level of internal power (without necessarily being expert or master level).

It's probably different for everybody, but I've heard from one shihan that real effectiveness starts creeping in around sandan. That's roughly in line with my experience as well.

What do you think?
I think people "get it", from their very first class. I just think the "it" changes.

In my first class, it was easy to see how controlling an elbow can take someone down. I "get it".

After a few kyu ranks, it was easy to see how having that same elbow facing just the right way can could change my technique from a ikkajo, to an irimi nage, to a hijiate, depending on how the elbow is placed, uke's movement, etc. I "get it"

At 3rd kyu, it's easy for me to see how the rotation of that elbow as I'm receiving it from uke changes the technique, and what I'll do with uke based on this. I "get it".

I can only image what I'll "get" as I progress.

My point is, I think every time one does a technique, they are learning something new, or should be striving to. Yes, every time. It's hard to practice that, and I certainly don't live up to it myself, but hey, it's a goal. I just think that what passes as "proficiency" to different people is vastly different things. A sandan doing an ikkajo certainly has all the grace and perfection a 9th kyu could ever hope to attain. But in that Sandan's mind, he's probably trying to sort out a number of details to himself, and thinking he's just as big a clutz as ever. Those details, to the 9th kyu, would be incomprehensible.

Derek
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:48 PM   #40
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

You will get it when it starts to become easy and without thought
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:04 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Hi Derek, excellent post. Do you train with Kushida Sensei?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:01 AM   #42
Aikibu
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Hmmmmm....All semantics aside for the moment...I have higher goals...There is a saying in AA.... It's easy to stay sober at an AA meeting... However meetings are there to teach you how deal with life sober outside of meetings and when you come to realize this... You start to get "get it"

The same anology works for me in Aikido. "Getting it" in a Dojo is very important to be sure and the levels of achievement are endless... However, for me the challenge and litmus test I use and the only one that matters in my old age LOL... Is outside of the Dojo... Among the peeps...It's easy to be an Aikidoka among other Aikidoka at the Dojo.... But it's out there in traffic, at work, in the mall, at the restaurant, ballgame, and school where you find out if you walk the walk, and not just talk the talk....

What I have experianced so far leads me to believe...So Far...So Good. LOL

Bowing down to all of you....

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-27-2007 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:34 AM   #43
Dyryke
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Derek, excellent post. Do you train with Kushida Sensei?

Best,
Ron
Thank you for the compliment.

I do not train with Kushida sensei. I'll PM you with my details.

Derek
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:39 PM   #44
Dunken Francis
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

good question. If only there was such a thing as an "Aikido-o-meter" that one could stick in ones ear and get a mark out of 10!!

I spend a lot of time with beginners, and I think that the first time when people generally start to "understand" is at around the 6 month mark - at this level I think the most profound changes happen and the greatest accelleration of learning occurs. Sure, at sandan muscle memory and the benefit (usually) of teaching others all help make movement second nature but I don't think at any stage in ones Aiki path do we ever shift so much in such a short time.

One of my ambitions is to get Aikido onto the primary school syllabus here in NZ as I believe that within a school year you could make a huge difference to how kids view themselves and each other...

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Old 11-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #45
phitruong
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Re: When do people start to "get it"?

some years ago a group of folks at my dojo went to a seminar (in Ohio) taught by Ikeda sensei of the famed Bujin. Sensei would go around the room and had folks grab his hand (katate dori). Sensei asked "I got it?" what he meant was "did I get your balance/center?" whatever your answer were, he would drop you. of course he got it on everyone. after a day and a half of "I got it?", it was getting tiresome. when one of my sempai turn to grab Sensei, he got the "I got it?" question. There was a pregnant pause and my sempai gave the most sensible answer: MAAAYYYYBBBEEE. Sensei laugh out loud and proceed to drop my sempai.

my answer: maybe
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