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Old 11-19-2007, 10:49 AM   #1
Esaemann
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Irimi/too slow problem

We were working on Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage this morning. When I stepped in deep and blocked I found (especially on one side, less so on the other), uke was able to turn into me and I lost Irimi since uke was now facing me.

Sensei had told me to step in deeper and showed that my hips had to be turned more toward uke before he turns toward me. That way when he turns, he walks right into the technique. I was bringing ukes head to my shoulder (except when he was already facing me when I missed it), so that wasn't the problem. On the initial step in, I face the opposite direction of uke, then turn my hips so I'm perpendicular to uke.

I'm slower than average; at 6'1" and 210 lbs probably is the main problem. Does anybody who isn't very fast have some pointers as to what they do if its a problem?

I hesitate to bring this up, but ... Segal Sensei doesn't seem to have to move much or fast during his techinques. Yeah, in the movies, since I haven't had the pleasure to train with him. Also, it looks like uke is moving much faster than O'Sensei during his techniques in videos I've seen. Now I'm sure O'Sensei's technique is just at high enough level that speed isn't important (I read a column about this months ago) -- I think I just answered my own question, but I don't know that Segal's would be beyond physical technique.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:01 AM   #2
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Looks like timing problem. You may improve it by doing empty hand techniques against weapons.
Every time you get hit in the head with bokken, you will improve your timing

Nagababa

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Old 11-19-2007, 01:50 PM   #3
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

There are two different ways to enter...we call them kamaemi and hitoimi...with hips facing square to the front and with hips "flat". If you enter with your hips facing front, you still have to turn your body to "fit" with uke. If you enter hitoimi, or with your hips already flat, they are already facing uke, and you;ve basically taken out a movement in your waza.

Also, your instructor is correct, you do want to enter deeply. Some people like to enter and be really tight, others like to enter and maintain some distance. I find that it depends on who I'm working with and what I want to achieve at that particular point in time. I'm sure there's a one size fits all solution...just haven;t found it yet.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-19-2007, 02:15 PM   #4
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Good advice so far.

I (like the others) don't think it's a matter of "speed", but of position and timing.

If you enter so you are directly behind uke he cannot turn to face you because you are behind him. By holding his collar and staying tight behind him, he won't be able to get to you.

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Old 11-19-2007, 02:55 PM   #5
phitruong
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

6'1" and having problem getting behind someone? who do you practice with, shaq o'neal?

I have the opposite problem. I am short and most of my partners, tall; thus, it would take a bit of foot work to get behind them. however, I have tried this approach, it might work for you.

walk straight into the uchi, don't try to go around it, and at the last moment, swivel your hip. see if you get to the point that the shomen uchi brushed by your nose. also, you can also try to cut horizontally with your leading hand, sort of trying to cut your uke head off at the neck with your hand blade. don't cut down, either horizontally or up.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:08 PM   #6
Keith Larman
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Remember that speed is measured in how you cover the distance. And sometimes the person who covers a great distance quickly doesn't always look like they do -- it is about timing, economy of motion, and simply "doing it" with confidence and authority. I watch newer students and often things are going in all sorts of directions. Limbs flailing, this here, that there, etc. Just move in. Deeply and with confidence. You'll be surprised how quickly you can move if you just do it with confidence. Which of course means doing it over and over again until you can. Which means practice more... The answer to most of life's difficult questions...

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Old 11-19-2007, 11:17 PM   #7
Shannon Frye
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

I'm 6'1, and about 230lbs. I'm interested in your footwork. Do you consider yourself "light" on your feet, or cumbersome? I've noticed that larger people tend to perform irimi as a large thumping step rather than a light, floating (or lunging) entry move.

When you enter, what is your back leg doing? Is it left behind? Sliding in after you? Or pushing off, to add speed to your irimi?

And as mentioned above, take note to when your hips start to turn towards uke.

Shannon

"In the end there can be only one"

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Old 11-20-2007, 01:07 AM   #8
Amir Krause
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Looks like timing problem. You may improve it by doing empty hand techniques against weapons.
Every time you get hit in the head with bokken, you will improve your timing
The answer to your whole post, is like he said:
Timing
AiKi

It only takes years of dedicated practice to learn.
When to start moving? if you start half a second earlier, you can move way slower, but if you start too early, you should get a wack on your head.

So, how to discern the intent of movement before the move? practice to be soft (in your mind) and in a few years (10, 15 or 20) it will probably come to you.

Amir
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:56 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

IMHO, its never too slow if the timing, posture, and position is right.

You can enter deeper, or get off the line and let the uke come to you, or both.

Skipping rope is great to footwork becoming faster and lighter.

I am 6'4", 230 lbs, and 57 years old. My Irimi is pretty decent.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:54 AM   #10
Esaemann
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Thanks folks for all the advice. I kind of figured it was a timing problem.
I guess that's why they call it the 20 year technique.

Shannon,
I consider myself cumbersome in movement. Probably need to learn to jump rope as Sensei Seiser suggested. To get in real deep I have to slide the back foot up, or I'd be doing the splits. Not sure that I push off with the back foot as much as I'm shifting weight to the front foot as it slides forward. I'll play around with it in the technique as well as in two-step exercise since that seems to be the movement I want in this technique.
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:18 AM   #11
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Guess I'm on the other side of the coin. I don't think timing is the problem. It's kuzushi, tsukuri. At contact, kuzushi. Currently, I like to think of kuzushi as destroying structure. Most people explain it as taking balance. But, you can take balance and still have an uke that's dangerous.

And after contact, you can't lose kuzushi when you move. Because then uke regains structure. So while you're moving to a position of advantage, or tsukuri, uke has structure and will negate your movement.

No, I don't think timing is the problem, especially if you follow kuzushi and tsukuri.

Another point might be slack or tension. In moving, one must take out all the slack and tension in one's own body. If not, then movements are slower and jerky, which affects one's ability to create kuzushi and also to keep kuzushi. Lagging the back leg is a symptom of slack/tension in one's body. It's called full body movement for a reason.

all IMO anyway,
Mark
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:18 AM   #12
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Standard disclaimer: take in mind that this is online advise. Good fuel for thought, but go to the source your teacher for correction.

Being 6' and 225 myself. I find us big bigger folk tend to turn our upper bodies 1st, ie the shoulders to start the tenkan. The hips should turn the trunk not the other way around. Turning your hips first will help with posture and the quickness of turning. Also it keeps your foot from taking a wide arcing sweep. If you have that wide foot sweep during tenkans, then most likely you have turned with shoulders and not fully engaged your hips. The foot should pass underneath your shoulder span not outside.

I hope that helps

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:46 PM   #13
Bronson
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

As I was told: "Move better, not faster."

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:17 PM   #14
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Take a 50 or 75 lb heavy bag and suspend it from the ceiling. Make sure the anchor is very very solid. The anchor into the ceiling should be metal and the rope should be connected to the anchor using a carabiner rather than just the rope or the rope will break too soon.
Hang the bag so it is at your body height and approximates a partner with whom you can practice.

Start the bag swinging in a full, slow revolution swing. Use the bag as your partner as you practice your Irimi, Tenkan, Tenkai, and Tenshin movements. As the swing shortens and the revolutions are faster, you will need to start moving faster and faster. The higher you hang the bag and longer the rope, the slower the revolutions will be. The slower revolutions allow you to recover more slowly for the next attack of the killer heavy bag. If you want to make it interesting, put short sharp spikes into the bag to make any hits on your body hurt and motivate you to not be hit. I sometimes use a big log that has spikes in it. It allows me to simulate an attacker with tanto and allows me to hit it full force to practice atemi. Be careful you don't hit any of the tanto sticking out of the log. I poked a hole in my hand that way once. It made me much more accurate in my atemi from then on.

You can use it to play jokes on your students as well. I replaced the usual log with another old rotten one and when the student hit it, the log exploded. He thought he was real tough and apologized profusely for busting my log. It gave him a lot of needed confidence though. He wasn't trying to dodge the log so much after that and allowed for a much smaller safety margin so that he was much faster and more direct in the entry. So, I guess it wasn't so much a joke as a training aid.

In the end, you should be able to do a fast flowing set of movements without break as the bag continues to attack you. You should be able to do the movements until the bag is completely stopped. After that, shorten the rope and start doing faster and faster movements until the exercise becomes almost anaerobic.

It is a lot of fun and I can keep doing this exercise and its derivations for hours. I also use it for practicing knife fighting, practicing atemi including keri practice, practice for my kendo waza, and for jo practice. Just use a 1/2 inch auger and drill out a hole in the log to allow you to replace the spike with sticks of different lengths. Use the length of the rope to change speed of attack.

Have fun.

Rock
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:46 PM   #15
charyuop
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

I had a lot of problems (and of course still have quite a few LOL) with this technique because I could never step behind Uke. Like your Sensei, mine told me to step deeper and I found myself not capable to do it.
One day I was practicing alone with Senpai and he stopped me. He told me not to touch his shomenuchi at all, just bring up my arm like in a shomenuchi. My arm had to be there as a defense in case Uke turns to hit me, but he wanted me to completely ignore his strike.
Miracle, I could step in deep enough and when I turned my body was exactly behind Uke. Senpai explained me that he noticed that when I was going to get a connection with his shomenuchi I would stop my body from moving, while when I ignored his arm I was just paying attention to the irimi part and do it correctly.

P.S. Haven't figured out yet how to put the two parts of the puzzle together hee hee.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:28 PM   #16
BK Barker
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

I am far from an expert at this or any technique but at our dojo we practice slowly as it shows the flaws in our techique. We do speed up but if we do not do it right and keep kuzushi our uke can regain their balance and poof your done. But if done right they have no way to recover.The best part is we mess up all the time and we do learn alot from it and then as we speed up/slow down we can really see the differences in our form and techniques. I believe matching your uke's speed is critical but if you happen to miss a technique wouldn't it be better to move to another technique that falls into place if your sensei allows that in your practice?

We was doing this tonight and there were times that we hardly touched out uke and they was already falling. The members that was there tonight were commited and do not just take a fall which I think makes it more effective to learn with after all it's really hard to work with someone that is really submissive.

Oh yeah I am 5'11" and 270lbs and even though I am not the quickest I am pretty quick for my size but I dont think that comes into play very much in the dojo... in a fight out in a public area it might but hopefully that isn't needed.

Last edited by BK Barker : 11-26-2007 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:58 PM   #17
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote: View Post
I hesitate to bring this up, but ... Segal Sensei doesn't seem to have to move much or fast during his techinques.
Eric,

I am sure you may find what the others have said about movement and timing interesting. It sure gives you a lot to do so to speak. In any case, some food for thought is that you should be able to do this same technique while moving backwards upwards of three feet.

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote: View Post
...I think I just answered my own question, but I don't know that Segal's would be beyond physical technique.
Unless you plan on knocking an opponent down with your mind there is only physical technique to worry about. When you can knock them down with your mind, unless you are in the movies there will still be the physical component of that action to master.

I have heard it said that the path to mastery begins with a complete understanding of the simplest, most basic movements. I for one believe that is a great place to focus.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:51 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Hey Shaun! Good to read you again. Hope all is well.

Just to keep on topic a bit; If you can't do the waza slowly and correctly, I'm not sure how speeding it up would help.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:07 AM   #19
xuzen
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote: View Post
We were working on Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage this morning. When I stepped in deep and blocked I found (especially on one side, less so on the other), uke was able to turn into me and I lost Irimi since uke was now facing me.

Sensei had told me to step in deeper and showed that my hips had to be turned more toward uke before he turns toward me. That way when he turns, he walks right into the technique. I was bringing ukes head to my shoulder (except when he was already facing me when I missed it), so that wasn't the problem. On the initial step in, I face the opposite direction of uke, then turn my hips so I'm perpendicular to uke.

I'm slower than average; at 6'1" and 210 lbs probably is the main problem. Does anybody who isn't very fast have some pointers as to what they do if its a problem?

I hesitate to bring this up, but ... Segal Sensei doesn't seem to have to move much or fast during his techinques. Yeah, in the movies, since I haven't had the pleasure to train with him. Also, it looks like uke is moving much faster than O'Sensei during his techniques in videos I've seen. Now I'm sure O'Sensei's technique is just at high enough level that speed isn't important (I read a column about this months ago) -- I think I just answered my own question, but I don't know that Segal's would be beyond physical technique.
Shomen uchi irimi nage... lets work on the irimi version (kihon/kata version).

1) Shite/tori and uke both start out with migi (right) kamae.

2) Uke comes in to strike your head with his shoto (knife hand strike).

3) Tori's left hand should cut down uke's incoming right hand strike and simultaneously the body should move in shumatsu-dosa ichi movement . NB: pay attention to this initial cut down, because this first movement must effect kuzushi (off-balance) upon uke. To enable good powerful cut down without making tori's hand painful: Whenever doing ushiro ukemi, slap the mat hard to toughen forearm, also do many ken/jo suburi to develop power cutting.

4) When uke is off balance (NB: uke's balance should be towards the back and fully loaded on right legs), keep tori's left forearm on top of uke's right forearm to prevent uke's countering.

5) Place tori's right palm on uke's left jaw line. Keep forearm extended and firm, complete the shumatsu-dosa ichi movement. For best effect, slide 45 degrees at NE direction instead of just going forward directly. (I know that in shumatsu-dosa ichi movement, you are taught to move forward, I prefer this slight variation for better effect)

6) As for uke, his balance should be broken towards the back and loaded on right leags, but you throw him/her diagonally towards left direction. This way, you prevent uke from countering.

7) Uke's ukemi is hidari (left sided) yoko (side) ukemi.

Ossu!

Boon.

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Old 11-27-2007, 02:03 PM   #20
phitruong
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

take a look at the iriminage approaches from Frank Doran sensei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnO70_KJki4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Luo5a1Csw

don't cut down. legs muscle know how to deal with downward force (for example, gravity); don't know how to deal with upward force. float uke on his/her toes and shift his/her weight to his/her tail bone.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:51 AM   #21
charyuop
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
take a look at the iriminage approaches from Frank Doran sensei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnO70_KJki4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Luo5a1Csw

don't cut down. legs muscle know how to deal with downward force (for example, gravity); don't know how to deal with upward force. float uke on his/her toes and shift his/her weight to his/her tail bone.
Very funny the part where poor Nage goes around Uke, stop to rest then retstart running, restop to rest...all to reach the back of Uke.
Now, for sure what Doran Shihan says is right 100%, but I am sure this part of video is taken out of context.
You do Iriminage like the first video, doesn't mean that the cut down is wrong because the body knows out react.
The Iriminage in the first video is an Iriminage done when you might have a second opponent behind Uke, thus you really don't want to go behind Uke and give your back to the opponent.

Yes, legs and body do know how to react to a force going down and that's what makes Iriminage work. If you start iriminage on me and my legs didn't know how to react, I would simply go all the way down and stay there...result forget iriminage and do something else. Iriminage is possible because Uke tends to get up (either you help him a little or not).

I found wonderful the suggestion of "reaching for the other shoulder", it really put a picture in my mind of the arm movement...thanx.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:49 AM   #22
Walter Martindale
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Me 5'10.5" and 224lb (not proud, want to do something about it)
I've watched Izumi san do the heavy bag exercise irimi-tenkan - it's why I bought a heavy bag but now I'm 12,000 km away from the bag.

It's more a matter of timing. Depending on your sports/fitness background, and depending on composition of your body mass, you'll be able to move faster with a higher proportion of muscle than adipose tissue, but it's truly more a matter of when you move than how fast.
I think one of the quotes of O-Sensei remarks about watching the fists rather than the sword. Watch with full focus and you'll be able to decide sooner what to do.
W
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Old 11-29-2007, 06:04 AM   #23
Budd
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

From the standpoint of irimi - or any entry, if we think of aiki as "fitting appropriately", train to take the space before they get there (not anticipating, reading appropriately) - start with big movements, get smaller and smaller . . . watch out for self-perception-disorder . . . keep training
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:21 AM   #24
MM
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Two of the questions I'm thinking about currently:

1. If we work towards gaining kuzushi at the point of contact and at the instance of contact, then does timing matter?

2. If we work towards gaining kuzushi at the point of contact and at the instance of contact, then does physical location of nage or uke matter?

If we use the principles of aiki in the manner of the lineage of Takeda, then it really shouldn't be a matter of when nage moves or where nage moves. It should be a matter of nage's aiki disrupting uke's structure at the point of contact. The better nage's aiki skill, the less nage relies upon when and where.

So, if kuzushi is made at the point of contact, then uke has no structure, power, or control. If kuzushi is kept as nage goes to tsukuri, then uke again has no structure, power, or control.

So, I go back to viewing the hundreds of variations of irimi nage and again, see that when properly done, placement of nage doesn't really matter as much as kuzushi. The techniques, of which there are hundreds, place emphasis upon body movements. These body movements include foot placement, hand placement, etc. However, techniques are not the importance here. Techniques were codified so that people have some way of learning principles. Principles are the importance. Aiki and kuzushi are two. Body positioning and timing are, IMO, tactics to be used in a strategy.

Again, all IMO,
Mark
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:31 AM   #25
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
watch out for self-perception-disorder
I think you mean self-deception-disorder...

B,
R

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