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Old 10-20-2007, 02:21 AM   #1
Erik Jögimar
Dojo: Linköping Budo club
Location: Motala
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 42
Sweden
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Rough training :S

I need advice on something.

In our beginners group there's a guy with
bujinkan backround who's really not alien to
doing some of the techniques extra...rough.

Thing is i really feel i learn, in some techniques,
when we can do it a bit harder but when we do
nikyo he goes all the way for it. The guy i hitch
ride home with says the same thing. We're both
uncomfortable being his Uke. Thankfully we didnt
do nikyo yesterday during practice. It's the only
one i really dont like doing as his uke.

An example is when we were doing Ikkyo couple
of weeks ago, and i got distracted by a loud thump,
and he decided to do a nikyo on me, and when i asked
wth that was for he said he just had the opportunity, pat
my shoulder and went on with ikkyo.

Even as we've been at it for two months almost
(8 more days) he throws 'very' hard. we did
morodori (I hope i got that spelled right) kokyo ho
and he threw me so hard it almost knocked the wind
out of me.

What do you do during training if it gets to much?
Bow out, thank him, and go work three with someone
else? Pull him outside the training room and have
a serious but private discussion or just go straight to
the sensei?

I'm most aware that when i step through the dojo doors,
i can get hurt by accident and its a risk i accepted from
the first day. But i didnt, and wont, accept that risk
from someone who cant hold back.

Any advice on how to handle this?

Last edited by Erik Jögimar : 10-20-2007 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 10-20-2007, 03:09 AM   #2
SeiserL
 
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Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
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Re: Rough training :S

IMHO, first politely and honestly talk to him. Second, stay aware and tap sooner. Third, train with others. Fourth, talk to Sempai and Sensei. Please remember, in Aikido he is a beginner too (Shoshin: a beginners mind with history) and has not learned finesse yet. Be patient with yourself and him, train hard but wisely.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:19 AM   #3
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Rough training :S

What Lynn said - first I would say, right away, when he throws you too hard "please can you throw less hard, I haven't learned how to receive technique like that yet" or something like that. Usually in my experience that is enough. It makes it sound like it's not his fault and people often respond better to that.

If he's still too rough, it's ok IMO to bow out and not train with him, and to have a word with sensei in private.

If you haven't actually gotten injured by him, you could also consider that maybe it isn't too hard, just harder than average in your dojo. In that case, don't resist the technique, tap out quickly, but keep training together. It all depends on whether you feel truly unsafe training with this guy, or just uncomfortable.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:51 PM   #4
Angela Dunn
Dojo: Hartlepool/Peterlee/Billingham
Location: Hartlepool,UK
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England
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Re: Rough training :S

I remember finding myself in a situation similar to this when I was a new starter in my class. Not so much with pins (although that was part of it!) but still similar. I have also been on the other side of it in again similar circumstances once or twice.

I would try having a quiet word with this guy. He might not, as it was in my case , realise that he is being too rough or his own strength or even have difficulty hearing you tapping out . It might just shock him into relaxing and not being too rough.

If that does not work then definitely have a word with your Sensei as if you and your ride home are having issues with this guy then others might be as well. I would also say if that does not work then you should just not train with him.
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:10 PM   #5
John Bernhard
Dojo: Aikido of East Alabama
Location: Auburn, AL
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Re: Rough training :S

Ditto with Lynn's suggestion.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:58 AM   #6
justin
Location: swansea wales
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Re: Rough training :S

remember your not there to be a punch bag look after yourself, I echo the good advise given above as soon as you see the technique going on tap loudly I wouldnt be surprised if sensei soon catches on that people are avoiding this person or catches some hard throws of his in action and steps in and handles it in his own way. It would be such a shame to have your early days scared with this type training the early years are fun imo no expectations just fun.
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Old 10-21-2007, 07:12 AM   #7
Mika Perälä
 
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Re: Rough training :S

It's not fun to be at the receiving end of a harsh technique that you are not sure of you can handle (if nage chooses to crankt it up harder) or that you think you will not learn so much from (other than quickly tapping out).

As Lynn and the others have suggested, have a talk with him. If you feel uncomfortable with that, come and talk to me, and we can go over your toughts and feelings around the issue until you feel confident you can go into a talk with him and still be centered.

I'm guessing you preceive him being tough on purpouse and not willing to listen to what you have to say?

If you still feel uncomfortable with facing him, I can have a talk with him instead. I'm offering this as a way so you do not feel you must go into a confrontation, and to show that there are more ways to deal with the situation.

I'm all about having multiple actions to choose from, that way you don't feel forced to do something, which takes the fun out of doing it.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:43 PM   #8
Erik Jögimar
Dojo: Linköping Budo club
Location: Motala
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 42
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Re: Rough training :S

Quote:
Mika Perälä wrote: View Post
It's not fun to be at the receiving end of a harsh technique that you are not sure of you can handle (if nage chooses to crankt it up harder) or that you think you will not learn so much from (other than quickly tapping out).

As Lynn and the others have suggested, have a talk with him. If you feel uncomfortable with that, come and talk to me, and we can go over your toughts and feelings around the issue until you feel confident you can go into a talk with him and still be centered.

I'm guessing you preceive him being tough on purpouse and not willing to listen to what you have to say?

If you still feel uncomfortable with facing him, I can have a talk with him instead. I'm offering this as a way so you do not feel you must go into a confrontation, and to show that there are more ways to deal with the situation.

I'm all about having multiple actions to choose from, that way you don't feel forced to do something, which takes the fun out of doing it.
Mika,

Quote:
As Lynn and the others have suggested, have a talk with him. I
I like to think everyday is a new chance, a new opportunity for everything, so i'm trying not to 'hold a grudge' - that being going there worrying about it happening before it actually happens.

When it happens, if it happens, i'll politely ask him to go off-mat with me for a second and tell him to take it easier. No suggar coating, but just say it outright, without 'accusing' him of anything as Pauliina said.

And thank you for the kind offer

Same to everyone who gave their $02, thanks!
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:03 PM   #9
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Rough training :S

Lots of good suggestions here, so I'll balance it out with a bad one...

Next time he's doing nikkyo a little hard, wait until he's really ready to just crank it on and...sacrifice throw!

Catches most beginners who like to crank, as they tend to lean in just a little too much...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-22-2007, 05:34 PM   #10
Nick P.
 
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Re: Rough training :S

"I really like training with you, but my ukemi skills are not up to your throwing/pinning skills; could I ask you to bring it down to, say 75%? That would be a big help. Thanks."

If someone would have given me that as a suggestion when I had a hard time dealing with a an over-eager, equally unskilled student back when I started, perhaps that student would have stayed and become an adept, hard-throwing student with control and power...instead of just leaving because most of us avoided him.

Don't underestimate the scope of training hard-throwing ukes can bring to your training, but also don't risk yourself needlessly.

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Old 10-23-2007, 01:56 PM   #11
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
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Re: Rough training :S

First ask him to ease up, and if that doesn't work, then along with tapping out quickly, I would also add in a large scream, yelp, gasp, etc... Lay on the mat for an extra second or two and get up slowly. A little bit of acting doesn't hurt to help reinforce your point of him easing up on you. Plus the loud screams will get your Sensei's attention and he/she might do the talking for you.
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:47 PM   #12
tarik
 
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Re: Rough training :S

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Lots of good suggestions here, so I'll balance it out with a bad one...

Next time he's doing nikkyo a little hard, wait until he's really ready to just crank it on and...sacrifice throw!
Why is that a bad idea? I've used it on numerous occasions to great success.

The stronger and more powerful my partner wants to be, the softer and more relaxed I want to be.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 10-23-2007, 08:46 PM   #13
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
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Re: Rough training :S

I have this problem with beginners all the time, especially in bjj class. I usually tell them that this is a time for drilling and not for going all out and if they want to go all out, I am going to start countering and resisting. That usually solves it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:10 PM   #14
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Rough training :S

First and foremost, it is a beginner's group so your partner should know that there are quite a few inexperienced people in the class. I believe rough training should only occur if both you and your partner are up to it. For me I know my training partners enough to know what level of roughness to use on them. Your partner should know when hes hurting people who are not ready for the technique. Sounds like they are trying to showboat. Other than that, he is a jerk.
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:24 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Rough training :S

Hey Tarik...I know not everyone thinks the way we do...I just thought I'd acknowledge that up front!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:34 PM   #16
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Re: Rough training :S

1st and foremost you are responsible for your own safety. Don't rely on Nage being aware enough for the both of you. Definitely tell this person that you are uncomfortable with his application of technique. Injuries suck,good communication with your training partners will help your training and keep you from riding the pine while recovering.
Work on your ukemi to better move with nage that will help. Good Ukemi goes along way in injury prevention.
If he doesn't listen then you have to talk it over with your teacher. If he is doing it to you, he might doing to it others.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 11-12-2007, 02:02 PM   #17
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Kuwait
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Re: Rough training :S

Another suggestion. Do Nikkyo push-ups until your wrists are flexible and strong enough to take any Nikkyo for an extra few moments. Then, learn how to minimize the effect of Nikkyo by removing yourself from the 90 degree position. Then, you should do Nikkyo Kaeshi Waza Nikkyo. I wonder how strong and flexible the nasty one's wrists are?

BTW, this is not my suggestion but one from my Shihan whose actual response to a student was, "Then do Nikkyo Kaeshi Waza back to them!" I'm just putting down the how for you.

Rock

Last edited by Rocky Izumi : 11-12-2007 at 02:07 PM.
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