Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-03-2004, 07:49 AM   #1
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 219
Offline
Gods of Aikido-Waza

I know that when O sensei lectured he would describe some concepts in terms of kami. Does anyone know if there where particular kami associated with particular waza.

Just wondering.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2004, 02:40 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
Damion Lost wrote:
I know that when O sensei lectured he would describe some concepts in terms of kami. Does anyone know if there where particular kami associated with particular waza.

Just wondering.
Don't have it before me, but I think Gleason talks about some in his Spiritual Foundations of Aikido. Peter Goldsbury has also mentioned gods Osensei took himself to be an incaranation of in his posts on occasion; you might do a search of his posts here and on other boards.

Good luck with your search; let us know what you come up with.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2004, 02:48 PM   #3
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
Ki Symbol Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

I was once praying to the Kami of Aikido, not knowing a specific name or anything, and I got the impression that O Sensei IS the very same kami now.

I like to think he looks over all aikidoka, and we can all look forward to a "visit" with him during our career.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 12:14 PM   #4
Dan Hover
Dojo: Bond Street Dojo/Aikido of Greater Milwaukee
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 132
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

ghost, in reply, yes, yes I do. and had you listened to some of my lectures while teaching you would know as well

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 12:38 PM   #5
malsmith
Dojo: Masters of Aikido in Fogelsville
Location: Bethlehem
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 84
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

im a little confused, most people say aikido is not a religion, but praying to a god of aikido sounds pretty religious to me... could someone explain this contradiction to me?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 02:57 PM   #6
James Young
Location: Orange County, CA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

To answer Mal's comment aikido is considered by most not to be a religion, however, most people will recognize the fact that aikido was most definitely built upon religion, most specifically Shintoism and Omote-kyo, in which O-sensei was a follower of. However, the fact remains that most of the aikido practiced today, both in Japan and out, is focused on the more secular aspects of the art (i.e. martial art techniques) and not the religious ends which O-sensei "preached" about. However, I agree that when people proclaim the goal of aikido to be "to become one with the universe", and other such statements, one would be led to believe aikido is more religious in nature than not when followed to that degree.

Even though most aikido practicioners choose to practice aikido not as a religion it doesn't hurt to understand how some of the exercises one may do in the dojo have connection to or origin to certain religious beliefs and exercises. A lot of the misogi exercises fall in this category. For instance the torifune (funekogi) and furitama exercises are good examples. Here is a link over to that topic on an Aikido Journal forum thread that may interest Damion:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...=4248&start=15
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 03:43 PM   #7
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
Mal Smith wrote:
im a little confused, most people say aikido is not a religion, but praying to a god of aikido sounds pretty religious to me... could someone explain this contradiction to me?
Well I would not say I am "most people", I often find myself in that thin slice of the pie-chart labled "other". Even saying that, I do not think of Aikido as a religion, though within Aikido if one wants to go there, there are many practices that can be for the polishing of the spirit

IF Aikido were a religion some of these practices would be compulsory, as it is, if one chooses, they can see and practice Aikido as a physical practice, and leave the other stuff out. However even having said that, I think even pure physical practice will introduce students to the underlying philosphy.

O Sensei did say, "Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit." but then again, what would HE know about Aikido?

I mentioned praying to the Kami of Aikido, but that is a practice that is compatible with my religious practice outside of Aikido -- I did not see it as a religious practise OF Aikido. I don't think it a neccesary thing for all Aikidoka to do. Even O Sensei wanted his students to follow thier own religious paths, and not copy his.

Aikido is not a religion, but if you are the religious type, Aikido will benefit your religious practice.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 03:43 PM   #8
malsmith
Dojo: Masters of Aikido in Fogelsville
Location: Bethlehem
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 84
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

thanks james! that was really helpful!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 03:52 PM   #9
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Can't say I consider O'Sensei a god or kami or even god-like. However, being the "good" catholic that I am (not really, but I was raised to be such) ... I do consider O'Sensei to be : O'Sensei. Also known as: Great Teacher.

When we do our bow-in before class and after, I speak to him directly in my mind and I ask for his guidence in this day's class/lesson. If you consider "Saints," these were people who were once mortal and went on to become something more. The Church believes saints to assit God in performing miracles. Only through documentation and varification by the Church of 3 miracles can someone be "cannonized" or considered a Saint.

Now, the Church hasn't done this with O'Sensei. Doesn't matter to me. I put him on par with the saints and truly, I expect nothing from him. I give him the respect I believe he has earned and ask for guidence. If I should get it, and I most likely have in subtle ways, then I truly have something to be greatful for.

In the process of working on this reply, I just remembered that in my last class, I injured myself in a very stupid way. Suffice to say, it hurt and my instructor told me to go ahead and hit the lockers as class was ending anyways. I don't remember if I bowed out. In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't. That is a regreatable action and despite my injury, feel it was disrespectful to not bow out to the kamiza where O'Sensei's picture hangs. Guess I owe him an apology for that.

Anyhow, to each their own...

Last edited by John Boswell : 01-24-2005 at 03:54 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2005, 08:56 PM   #10
Jerry Miller
 
Jerry Miller's Avatar
Location: Spring Tx
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 163
United_States
Offline
Thumbs down Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Can't say I consider O'Sensei a god or kami or even god-like. However, being the "good" catholic that I am (not really, but I was raised to be such) ... I do consider O'Sensei to be : O'Sensei. Also known as: Great Teacher.

When we do our bow-in before class and after, I speak to him directly in my mind and I ask for his guidence in this day's class/lesson. If you consider "Saints," these were people who were once mortal and went on to become something more. The Church believes saints to assit God in performing miracles. Only through documentation and varification by the Church of 3 miracles can someone be "cannonized" or considered a Saint.

Now, the Church hasn't done this with O'Sensei. Doesn't matter to me. I put him on par with the saints and truly, I expect nothing from him. I give him the respect I believe he has earned and ask for guidence. If I should get it, and I most likely have in subtle ways, then I truly have something to be greatful for.

In the process of working on this reply, I just remembered that in my last class, I injured myself in a very stupid way. Suffice to say, it hurt and my instructor told me to go ahead and hit the lockers as class was ending anyways. I don't remember if I bowed out. In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't. That is a regreatable action and despite my injury, feel it was disrespectful to not bow out to the kamiza where O'Sensei's picture hangs. Guess I owe him an apology for that.

Anyhow, to each their own...
Nice post John, I am a backslider myself and I found myself agreeing pretty much with your thoughts. The dojo is a special place. I guess you could look at is a well. Come as often as you want and drink as deep as you would like.

Jerry Miller
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 12:57 AM   #11
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 779
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

I once saw a Japanese statue/figure - can't remember where - of a man standing with one hand pointing straight up to heaven and the other stright down to earth and I thought - Tenchi-nage! I have done my own tenchi-nage like that ever since

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 05:35 AM   #12
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

I expect Ueshiba felt aikido was an expression of a spiritual reality; however adopting anyone else's beliefs is dangerous and superfluous. Unless you understand the symbolic meaning of a lot of religion, all they remain are symbols.

Ueshiba was an Omote-Kyo follower, and although he interpreted aikido in these terms he taught aikido and not omote-kyo. Personally I think, any religious connection with aikido may be useful for interpreting the physical aspects of aikido, but if you want a religious aspect you need to learn omote-kyo.

I also believe that understanding in aikido becomes self-evident if you train enough and with good instructors, so you don't need to throw a layer of religious stuff on top.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 06:37 AM   #13
Ben Joiner
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Cardiff
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 29
Wales
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Interesting posts, however it was the initial inquiry which perked my interest, and we seem to have strayed from that particular leafy by-way and found ourselves back on one of the many discussion superhighways that seem to criss cross these forums. Top of the page anyone?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 08:17 AM   #14
justinm
Location: Maidenhead
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 167
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
In the process of working on this reply, I just remembered that in my last class, I injured myself in a very stupid way. Suffice to say, it hurt and my instructor told me to go ahead and hit the lockers as class was ending anyways. I don't remember if I bowed out. In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't. That is a regreatable action and despite my injury, feel it was disrespectful to not bow out to the kamiza where O'Sensei's picture hangs. Guess I owe him an apology for that.

Anyhow, to each their own...
I have often trained on my own at home, and I bow at the start and end of my training, although on my own and in a garden/room with no kamiza. It make the training a more spiritual event for me, and feels right.

It may not even manifest itself physically to anyone watching - I am not sure if I always actually physically bow, but it happens in my head (heart).

Justin

Justin McCarthy
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 08:59 AM   #15
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,711
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

IMHO, I think that "God" in the Judeo-Christian sense if different that "Kami" or spirit in the Shinto/Omoto sense. Apples and oranges. I don't know of any specific kami-waza association, only that the waza should be natural and aligned with the spiritual tenets. O'Sensei's waza often came from his mediataive state while training.

Pray to whom or what you please, but train hard with an open heart and mind.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 09:31 AM   #16
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
I know that when O sensei lectured he would describe some concepts in terms of kami. Does anyone know if there where particular kami associated with particular waza.
According to the doka that O'Sensei wrote, Izu and Mizu are the Kami most frequently mentioned. I'd recommend going to Google and typing in: O'Sensei doka... and just reading what you find.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 09:39 AM   #17
Tadhg Bird
 
Tadhg Bird's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton, CA
Location: Casper, WY
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 55
United_States
Offline
Do symbol Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, I think that "God" in the Judeo-Christian sense if different that "Kami" or spirit in the Shinto/Omoto sense. Apples and oranges. I don't know of any specific kami-waza association, only that the waza should be natural and aligned with the spiritual tenets. O'Sensei's waza often came from his mediataive state while training.

Pray to whom or what you please, but train hard with an open heart and mind.
I think the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god could be counted in the number of Kami. With a figure of 8 million, the G-d represented with four Hebrew letters should certainly be among them. I think the kami of shinto incorporate every spirit from the creator, to the simple essence inhabiting a pebble.

O Sensei's non-exclusivity of gods, and a reverence for them all is in my opinion a great example, and one I try to follow. There is a quote from the Art of Peace, "The Art of Peace that I practice has room for each of the world's eight million gods, and I cooperate with them all. The God of Peace is very great and enjoins all that is divine and enlightened in every land.". But I think this story from Andre Nocquet that I read a long time ago (and found again thanks to wonder of google!) illustrates it better.

Quote:
Andre Nocquet wrote:
[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion." "No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist." I thought it was an amazing response. I really liked his answer. Since he was a Japanese I was afraid he would say that Christianity was nothing. Ueshiba Sensei had a great deal of respect for Christ. I was living in a four-mat room in the dojo and he would knock on the door and enter. He would sit down beside me and there was a portrait of Jesus Christ. He would place his hands together in a gesture of respect. I asked him one day if there wasn't a similarity between his prophecies and those of Christ. He answered, "Yes, because Jesus said his technique was love and I, Morihei, also say that my technique is love. Jesus created a religion, but I didn't. Aikido is an art rather than a religion. But if you practice my aikido a great deal you will be a better Christian." Then I asked, "Sensei should I remain a Christian?" He replied,

"Yes, absolutely. You were raised as a Christian in France. Remain a Christian." If he had told me to stop being a Christian and become a Buddhist, I would have been lost. My heart was full of Ueshiba Sensei because he had a vision of the entire world and that we were all his children. He called me his son.
So who is the Kami of Waza? Whatever spirit that moves your heart and body, THAT is the kami of waza.

"Words and letters can never adequately describe Aikido -- its meaning is revealed only to those who are enlightened through hard training." -- Ueshiba Morihei O Sensei
--

http://www.AikidoStuff.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 10:30 AM   #18
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

But Jeseu Didn't create Christianity. He was just a nice Jewish boy who had some good stuff to teach. It was his _students/disciples/uchi-deshi_ who created the religion.

I prefer to think of aikido as a Spiritual Practice, rather than a religion. Religions have Rules, practices have "suggestions".

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 03:07 PM   #19
saltlakeaiki
 
saltlakeaiki's Avatar
Dojo: Salt Lake Aikikai
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 76
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Sorry, but just had to make a small correction to the Freudian slip-esque misnomers above.... the religion O'Sensei followed is Omoto-kyo (Teachings of the Great Origin), not Omote-kyo (do the followers of Omote-kyo not do urawaza? )

Dave

If it wasn't for the goat, you couldn't get in here for propaganda!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 04:47 PM   #20
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Some added information that some might find interesting or helpful

* Izu and Mizu in Omoto-kyo are not kami in the more common sense -- though I would not be surprised if some religious thinker(s) somewhere may have understood them as such. More correctly, these things are noted as the Izu-Spirit and the Mizu-Spirit. Theologically speaking, they are the two aspects the Creator (Absolute) Divinity (see below) divided into in order to begin the process of Creation. The Izu-Spirit and the Mizu-Spirit are the soteriological application of Yin/Yang theory that Onisaburo (co-founder of Omoto-kyo and mentor to Osensei) propagated. The Izu-Spirit and the Mizu-Spirit are two aspects of the human soul/being/spirit. When these aspects are in harmony with each other, the human spirit reaches a perfected state known as the Izunome Soul. According to Omoto-kyo doctrine, the Izunome Soul is the spiritual state of perfection that all human beings are naturally moving toward (even if that perfection takes several lifetimes to occur). Interestingly enough, the symbol for the Izunome Soul is the Cross - which most likely comes from a European influence.

* Though I am sure that there have been attempts by interested parties to proclaim that Omoto-kyo is a type of "Shinto," scholars refer to Omoto-kyo as "New Religion." This is not to say that there are not "Shinto" elements in Omoto-kyo, but it is to say that there is so much more involved that it would be totally misleading to refer to Omoto-Kyo as just another school of "Shinto." New Religions, generally, are quite eclectic in nature. Hence, it is not surprising to see aspects of "Shinto" in Omoto-kyo. Omoto-kyo, once Onisaburo became firmly involved, was heavily involved with the world religion movement that was gaining momentum in certain parts of Europe and the United States at or near the beginning of the 20th century. Central to this movement, and which lends itself to the eclectic nature of a New Religion like Omoto-kyo, was the effort to see a common thread through all religious traditions. Thus, though it would have been nearly impossible for Onisaburo and/or Osensei to escape the cultural influences that "Shinto" has had on Japanese history as a whole, it is probably more accurate to understand Omoto-kyo's take on the kami of Japan as simply being just another example of the common thread that runs through all religious traditions. This I offer here in opposition to suggesting that the presence of kami in Omoto-kyo is evidence that it is a type of "Shinto."

* While one could rightly argue that the kami of Japan are not best understood as equivalent to the Judeo/Christian/Islamic "God" and/or the same sense of the divine, the Kami of Omoto-kyo, the Kami that Osensei speaks of when he is speaking in the abstract singular, etc., is indeed the same divinity of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions. In Omoto-kyo, this divinity that is, as Onisaburo describes him, "the ultimate presence which is the original Spirit of the entire universethe one and only God boundless and absolute, without beginning and without end," has a few names but is often called Kunitokotachi-no-mikoto. If you have a copy of the black and white documentary "Aikido," you will see a picture of this divinity on Osensei's desk -- Onisaburo drew that picture.

Thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 05:00 PM   #21
saltlakeaiki
 
saltlakeaiki's Avatar
Dojo: Salt Lake Aikikai
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 76
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Your post reminds me that there seems to be some disagreement on the pronunciation of the name of this man who was the head of Omoto-kyo (some may note my endless preoccupation with language ) All the English books I've seen have it as "Onisaburo", while my wife insists that she hears it only as "Wanisaburo". If I recall, the first character is "king", so I'm guessing that the reading "wa" somehow derives from Chinese "wang" (although I don't have my Nelson handy to check whether this is a valid Japanese reading )

Is there a consensus somewhere on this name? Are both readings considered acceptable? If not, where did the "wrong" reading come from (whichever one that is)?

Thanks,
Dave

If it wasn't for the goat, you couldn't get in here for propaganda!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 05:11 PM   #22
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Some added information that some might find interesting or helpful
Thanks, David, it was.

Can I ask, did you get this info from text in vernacular or is there a source in English for these more detailed aspects of Omotokyo?

I've read Nadolski's The Socio-Political Background Of The 1921 And 1935 Omoto Suppressions In Japan, but that's the best I've found on Omoto per se.

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 06:03 PM   #23
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Hi David,

I'm sorry, I have never heard of that reading - though I have often experienced disagreements pertaining to the readings of proper names in my studies of Japanese religious history. So I wouldn't say who or what is right as much as I would say, every source I have ever seen reads the name "Onisaburo".

Hi Don,

Yes, there are texts that can be seen in English. In fact, it seems that more and more of Omoto's texts are being uploaded onto the Net - which is in keeping with its long standing tradition to make use of the latest technology. :-) If you go to the Omoto-kyo site (try a google search - it should come up) - you should be able to see most of this stuff for yourself (at least the stuff pertaining to doctrine). I've seen other stuff in various acamdemic journals on Omoto and/or on New Religions with a mention on Omoto - so there is stuff out there. That's probably your best bet - if you have been unlucky so far - try going through the "New Religions" rather than straight through "Omoto" - that has a lot of stuff in many languages published already. If I could help you find something in specific, let me know and I'll try my best. If I may - Just remember, there our competing histories and interpretations in Omoto - complete with big time power struggles. What's "official" is up in the air and probably was for a very long time (depending upon what one is wishing to delineate).

thanks,
d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 06:40 PM   #24
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

Hi Dave I,

It is my understanding that the official, correct reading (whatever that means) of the first character is Wa, but the man himself, and thus those who knew him personally used "O." I kind of use it as a means to tell how much various Japanese writers on Aikido really knew about this part of Aikido history. Some of O`Sensei`s deshi write "wanisaburo" and I take that to mean that they didn`t hear about the man from O`Sensei himself, rather they read about him in a book and just figured the reading was such. Those who write "Onisaburo", I figure actually might have talked directly to O`Sensei about his beliefs. A kind of litmus test if you will.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2005, 07:32 PM   #25
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,998
Japan
Offline
Re: Gods of Aikido-Waza

I tried inputting the name in Japanese on my computer. Deguchi came up immediately, but I had to input Onisaburo character by character. For what it is worth, the books I have which were written by Deguchi in Japanese, which include titles such as V̌ (Shingetsu no kake = The Light of the New Moon) and O (San Kagami = Three Mirrors) all give his name as Onisaburo.

Actually, the name is really old fashioned, rather like Kisshomaru and Kisaburo. Out of the hundreds of Japanese students I have taught over the years, far less than 1% had a first name with more than two Chinese characters.

Finally, David's observation about Ueshiba, Deguchi and Shinto is very much to the point. I have come to Deguchi's writings from studying Japan's new religions in general, as well as from aikido, and they are far more eclectic than is generally realised, especially by those who want to characterize O Sensei's thinking as Shintoist or Buddhist.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 04:29 AM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:29 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate