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Old 12-10-2001, 01:55 PM   #1
ronin_10562
Dojo: NGA Ossining
Location: NY
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Question Should anyone be expelled from the dojo?

What are the reasons that a student should be expelled from a dojo and/or orginization? Should anyone be expelled?

Walt

Walter Kopitov
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Old 12-10-2001, 02:28 PM   #2
shihonage
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Re: Should anyone be expelled from the dojo?

Quote:
Originally posted by ronin_10562
What are the reasons that a student should be expelled from a dojo and/or orginization? Should anyone be expelled?

Walt
Peeing on the mat is prohibited.
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Old 12-10-2001, 02:32 PM   #3
ronin_10562
Dojo: NGA Ossining
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Would you expell him or have him wear "Depends" Are there reasons to kick someone out?

Walt

Walter Kopitov
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Old 12-10-2001, 03:54 PM   #4
Greg Jennings
Dojo: WPAFB JiuJitsu Group
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronin_10562
Are there reasons to kick someone out?
I wouldn't kick anyone out unless they were a threat to themselves or the health of the dojo.

E.g., if someone is intentionally injuring their partners, I'd cordially ask them not to return.

Do you have something specific in mind?

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 12-10-2001, 05:21 PM   #5
guest1234
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I know this will not be a popular answer, but I think any reason a sensei has for not wanting to teach a student is reason enough. Granted, if it is not a 'good' reason by dojo consensus then other students might be tempted to leave if they found out, but all in all it is his dojo.

As for 'dojo consensus', that of course would vary from dojo to dojo, and the question might be best asked if it would cause more disruption for the group if he stayed or if he were expelled. On the other hand, if it is to set an example, then a public dismisal is always an attention getter...

It must be hard for a sensei to ask someone to leave, perhaps the best way is to talk over the reasons with someone close (and closed mouthed) and see if they think the rationale sounds reasonable, petty, or somewhere inbetween.
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Old 12-10-2001, 06:19 PM   #6
thomasgroendal
 
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It certainly is the sensei's right to teach or not teach who they please. It will also end up being their choice whether the result of that decision leads to an increase or a decrease in attendance. Certainly, though, when you are dealing with an art that involves hurting or helping people, you have to make some choices about principles, and then act accordingly. In my old dojo we had a guy who had a terrible attitude. He knew all, and kicked all butt. He is still there, and apparently has gotten much better. Did we grow from this experience, or get so annoyed with him, that we stopped going to the dojo. I would say both. Perhaps more of the latter, perhaps not. Either way, it is an example of a principled decision, that this person was worth patience. And a principled decision is the one right of all involved, and a very budo solution.
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Old 12-10-2001, 06:31 PM   #7
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Making a generalization here, I'm going to say that most Dojo have rules/proper etiquette which are expected to be followed. My opinion is that any student who exhibits a blatant disregard for the established rules/proper etiquette and/or a blatant disregard for the welfare of other students should be expelled from the Dojo.

"Peeing on the mat" - Allow me to show you the door. "Improper language, i.e. cursing" -the door is over there, don't let it hit you on the way out.

Certain things can be over-looked though. For example, some students prefer not to bow at the beginning of class, no problem; I understand and respect that. Some men prefer to wear a t-shirt under their Dogi; not exactly proper, but not a deal-breaker.

Basically it's a common-sense decision. If someone is acting in such fashion that either sets a bad example for others or those actions could cause injury to another student; ask them to leave. Students are a reflection of the teacher. Would you want a student who acts poorly to visit another Dojo and act poorly there; stating that you were there teacher? I would not.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 12-10-2001, 08:29 PM   #8
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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I agree with Coleen on her position. Moreover, I am an advocate of pre-filtering of candidates before being accepted into the dojo. An initial interview with the Sensei would be advisable. Sensei has full right not to admit someone to his dojo or class, or to ask them to leave without justification. And I wish they would do it more often.
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Old 12-11-2001, 02:54 AM   #9
Creature_of_the_id
 
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I think it would take alot for me to tell anyone to leave my class... I am under the opinion that the people that we most want out of the class are the ones who could benifit from the principles of aikido the most

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Old 12-11-2001, 03:13 AM   #10
unsound000
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Aaaah...there is the rub.
Good answer.


Quote:
Originally posted by Creature_of_the_id
I think it would take alot for me to tell anyone to leave my class... I am under the opinion that the people that we most want out of the class are the ones who could benifit from the principles of aikido the most
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Old 12-11-2001, 08:05 AM   #11
ronin_10562
Dojo: NGA Ossining
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What if an Ni Kyu or I kyu student who trains for several years but sees an abuse of the teachers authority and tells the instructor that he had gone to far. Mind you it is said as respectfully as possible, but the teacher feels that anyone with an opposing view is a threat and must be thrown out.
I say that the instructor has gone to far.

Walter Kopitov
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Old 12-11-2001, 09:11 AM   #12
Largo
Dojo: Aikikai Dobunkan/ Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
What if an Ni Kyu or I kyu student who trains for several years but sees an abuse of the teachers authority and tells the instructor that he had gone to far. Mind you it is said as respectfully as possible, but the teacher feels that anyone with an opposing view is a threat and must be thrown out.
If a teacher was abusing their authority badly enough/ often enough to warrant comment, why would you want to train with them?
As far as giving someone the boot out of the dojo, it ought to be common sense. If someone is making mistakes/ being difficult by accident, than correcting them should solve the problem. If it is deliberate, maybe (for the good of the student) someone should ask why they are here training. In the past, in various dojos I have run into other people who cross-train diffrent styles. After a few weeks, any mistake becomes, "well, in X style we...". Well, if you wanna do style X, than go to a style X dojo. Doesn't seem tough to me....but maybe that's just me

Largo
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Old 12-11-2001, 11:46 AM   #13
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Creature_of_the_id
The optimist thinks the glass is half full, the pessimist thinks the glass is half empty, the engineer thinks.... that glass is twice as big as it needs to be
That's a great signature there.
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:48 AM   #14
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Moreover, I am an advocate of pre-filtering of candidates before being accepted into the dojo. An initial interview with the Sensei would be advisable. Sensei has full right not to admit someone to his dojo or class, or to ask them to leave without justification. And I wish they would do it more often.
So, you're saying that aikido is not for everyone? That it's an exclusionary art?
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:51 AM   #15
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy

So, you're saying that aikido is not for everyone? That it's an exclusionary art?
Only to the well-behaved
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Old 12-12-2001, 05:54 PM   #16
guest1234
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Pre-screening doesn't say Aikido is not for everyone, it just says at this point in time, this dojo may not be what the student needs. My first dojo pre-screened. Somehow I slipped through .

After a few months, it was decided I was not right for the dojo (didn't get an explanation, which of course was his right). After a few months of crying, I found another dojo, one that was not listed in the phone book I'd used to find the first, through the help of a friend's sensei in another state. And it was perfect for me. I didn't cry when I left there, because I travel back often from my new assignment. It is HOME.

I was later told by a student from my first dojo that they thought Sensei could tell I would always march to my own drum, and the unwillingness to accept without question was what showed me the door. Wise on his part, and kind as well, for my next dojo taught several styles, and was the perfect place for me to explore Aikido in my own way. It was good I didn't waste my time at the first dojo, trying to be what I could never be, and for that among other things I will always be grateful to my first sensei.
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Old 12-12-2001, 07:35 PM   #17
Erik
Location: Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
After a few months, it was decided I was not right for the dojo (didn't get an explanation, which of course was his right). After a few months of crying, I found another dojo, one that was not listed in the phone book I'd used to find the first, through the help of a friend's sensei in another state. And it was perfect for me. I didn't cry when I left there, because I travel back often from my new assignment. It is HOME.
Ya know, if it gets to the point that you or the sensei is thinking that you should move on, it's probably time to move on.

The same thing happened to me only it was after a number of years. There were a lot of reasons for it. Some things I didn't handle well (still don't actually) and sometimes certain personalities and certain environments just ain't gonna work together. No way. No how.

Years later I wish I would have left when the idea first rolled around in my brain. It would have spared a lot of discomfort.

By the way, from my perspective, everyone is on good terms these days.

I do think that just about everyone should get the chance to learn. It's very hard to tell if someone will or will not be a fit. I've seen people make a very solid contribution or be helped that you would have never expected. And besides, I doubt that many dojos would have rejected any of the 19 hijackers, for instance. How would you have known?

Last edited by Erik : 12-12-2001 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 12-13-2001, 03:01 AM   #18
Creature_of_the_id
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by shihonage


That's a great signature there.
Thanks...

actually, I'm not really posting just to say thanks... I'm actually posting so I can see my new avatar
sweet!

(sorry for posting off topic... I'll go hide now)

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Old 12-13-2001, 11:47 AM   #19
Richard Harnack
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Mid-America
Location: Maplewood, Missouri
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Dojo Codes of Behavior

Whether or not someone should be asked to leave needs to be determined by the codes of behavior for the dojo.

I have always had students sign both a waiver form and "Rules & Guidelines" for behavior. Thus from the outset the student is clear on what is acceptable and unacceptable conduct. Those who feel that the Rules & Guidelines are "restrictive" are welcome to train elsewhere.

Be that as it may, in 25 years I have only asked one student to leave the dojo based on their behavior. They were continually endangering other students by "practicing realistically". I suggested that what they were calling "realistic" was nothing less than being physically abousive. I asked them to actually take the time to learn proper technique, but they refused. Finally, I refused to let them practice any more and suggested they take up another art far more suited to their nature -- the WWF came to mind.

Of course this is one of my rules "No horseplay or practicing any other arts on the mats before, during or after class without Sensei's consent."

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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