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Old 11-26-2007, 06:29 PM   #176
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Derek Raleigh wrote: View Post
Probably true for a single attacker.
I'd say for a single attacker, if it doesn't have to get deadly in the first instant, you're better not to get deadly at all.

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Derek Raleigh wrote: View Post
However, if you are up against multiple opponents, all intent upon doing you great bodily harm, and there is no reasonable chance of keeping that attacker pinned for the remainder of the encounter, it is likely to be justifiable to remove one combatant from causing you threat, by up to and including deadly force.
If that's the case, I think it would be a bad idea ever to get into a pinning situation. With multiple attackers, you wouldn't want to waste any time or any effort. The deadliness of each attacker is multiplied by the number of attackers, so you would have to start out at an extremely dangerous level.

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Derek Raleigh wrote: View Post
Laws in your states may vary, if by "justifiable" you mean "by law". If you mean "by morals", that's a whole new can o'worms. =)
Yes, it is.

Yes...it is.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-27-2007, 06:42 AM   #177
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

"In Aikido the goal is always the strike; however, the key is to find the proper opening.

In Aikido, one punch, metsubishi, a death-dealing blow, is the reality!"

Well, that sounds alot more like Karate. Karate assumes that one does not have a sword. O-Sensei Ueshiba knew the sword. He could take it away from you children. I do not know what you are studying, but Ueshiba O-Sensei studied the Live Sword.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:07 AM   #178
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Joseph Tutton wrote: View Post
I do not know what you are studying, but Ueshiba O-Sensei studied the Live Sword.
Is that a manga or something (the Live Sword) . . . like Naruto?
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:11 AM   #179
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Shinken
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:14 AM   #180
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

A sharpened katana.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:17 AM   #181
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Joseph Tutton wrote: View Post
Shinken
Nope,
O sensei was more into Katsujinken.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:19 AM   #182
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

A bokken coming from the Void.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:20 AM   #183
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

So when Ueshiba said aikido is x% atemi, he meant cuts with a live sword shinken? That seems rather harsh to me . . . striking is rough enough, but sheesh . . .
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:31 AM   #184
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Demetrio -- The Life giving Sword only exists when the Life taking Sword is extant. O-Sensei said that we must be strong to bring justice. If one cannot back up restraining techniques with force, they are worthless.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:48 AM   #185
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Hmm . . . sounds like there may be room for striking (and other stuff as needed) after all . . . agree that you can't choose to be merciful unless you are strong enough to be forceful. It think that's part of what people are saying all along.

Of course, how exactly to train that . . . well . . .
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:53 AM   #186
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Budd -- "That seems rather harsh to me" -- O-Sensei grew up in a rather harsh environment. Tough love, baby. Toy swords make toy swordsmen.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:53 AM   #187
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

It was once pointed out to me that if I made my movements "as if" cutting (not striking) through I would generate more power. Seems to work.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:13 AM   #188
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Lynn Seiser -- That sounds in complete concert with Musashi.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:17 AM   #189
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

I think now we're back on "how" to train, rather than "what" to train.

Joseph, so you're saying "live sword training" is . . . ? How to train? What aikido is? Maybe you could speak to your experiences here . . . From my point of view, aikido is technically derived from Daito Ryu, which involves core body skills derived from weapon arts (and other "stuff" no doubt) and is expressed through literally thousands of techniques - though on it's own my understanding is that it is *not* a weapons system (some DR practitioner feel free to correct me).

Ueshiba pared back the technical syllabus greatly and there are ongoing discussions as to the degree the core body skills were transmitted. So, to that extent, yes, aikido is derived from the sword . . . but your criticism of others' arguments of comparing aikido to karate, etc. could equally be spun back onto you in aikido to kenjutsu -- they ain't the same animal anymore. Sure, they can inform each other and there are core similarities in that the body can only move so many ways correctly - but hardly interchangeable.

Lynn - I'd love to hear your perspective on some of the irimi-tenkan principles in entering, atemi, etc. as compared to your experiences in the Filipino martial arts. My experiences dabbling with FMA are that they are excellent at duelling, changeup exchanges (as expressed with weapons and empty hands - wonderful consistency there), but not really along the lines of the one-shot one-kill ideas being discussed in this thread (of course that may be differences in the weapon derivations - knife versus sword - though when the knife is a machete . . . ).
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:48 AM   #190
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Budd -- The point, I would think is obvious, is to disarm the sword-wielding opponent without killing him and without one's self being mortally injured. To take a prisoner to one's Lord, alive.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:59 AM   #191
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Joseph - are you saying this is the point of why you train, or the point of why you think everyone trains or the point of what Ueshiba was all about, period, the end? I can buy the former, but the latter two seem quite arrogant and a bit narrow to me, unless I'm just not understanding you.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:00 AM   #192
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Sorry, but I really can't buy
Quote:
disarm the sword-wielding opponent without killing him and without one's self being mortally injured.
If the opponent is at all competent with a sword. Perhaps Kunii Zenya, Sogaku Takeda, and maybe Ueshiba M. were capable of that...but not too many others. And certainly not too many trained only in aikido. Just a bit hard to swallow.

It's one thing with a compliant uke trained in aikido attacks...introduce just a little varience and...watch out!

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-27-2007, 09:02 AM   #193
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Naruto can do it, too, I bet . . . he's pretty tough I hear . . .
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:02 AM   #194
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Joseph Tutton wrote:
Demetrio -- The Life giving Sword only exists when the Life taking Sword is extant. O-Sensei said that we must be strong to bring justice. If one cannot back up restraining techniques with force, they are worthless.
We agree on that.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Lynn - I'd love to hear your perspective on some of the irimi-tenkan principles in entering, atemi, etc. as compared to your experiences in the Filipino martial arts. My experiences dabbling with FMA are that they are excellent at duelling, changeup exchanges (as expressed with weapons and empty hands - wonderful consistency there), but not really along the lines of the one-shot one-kill ideas being discussed in this thread (of course that may be differences in the weapon derivations - knife versus sword - though when the knife is a machete . . . ).
And i'd like to read his BBM article about angles of attack, but i'm too timid to ask him to scan it and send via e-mail to the other side of the world.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:35 AM   #195
Joseph Tutton
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Ron Tisdale -- Yeah, this is an issue that has come up on more than one occasion, as with Hapkido guys who would ask if I thought their master could take my sword away, and I would politely answer that I had not met their master, but statistically, it was very unlikely. Nonetheless, I believe the ultimate origins of Aikido is the taking of prisoners alive. Otherwise, what is the point? Strike and kill. Much easier.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:42 AM   #196
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Hmm, well...the point?

I wasn't there, so I hesitate to guess what the point was. I do recommend reading Stan Pranin's work on Sogaku Takeda, Ueshiba, and their early students, as well as Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword for some context, though. Context is often everything. While remembering that our context is quite different from theirs.

I can say for me, the point is becoming...exactly what I don't know. But it has little to do with taking swords away, killing with one blow, or taking prisoners. Simply not called for in my daily life.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:14 AM   #197
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Hmmm ... the point.

Right now (and my viewpoints have changed with time), the point I see is one of two: Break/kill and pass-through.

Takeda emphasized break/kill in his training. It was called Daito ryu at the end. Ueshiba learned this and based his later training upon it.

Ueshiba took break/kill and added one more choice: pass-through. In other words, he allowed an option that did not necessarily end (although it still could) in someone being dropped at one's feet in a manner that provided breaking and/or killing him/her. The attack/attacker was rebounded, redirected, negated, etc to some other point. Passed through to somewhere else. (But Ueshiba couldn't arrive at that without the skills he learned from Takeda.)

Taking that to the here and now, the point is still about break/kill and pass-through. An attack comes and as students of Ueshiba, we train to allow uke to turn/roll/breakfall out of the attack. We offer the option of uke choosing to turn/roll/breakfall. If not, the other option is break/kill. But we can't let uke choose those options of pass-through until we get to the very point of break/kill.

Transferred to other venues: You have a fight with an SO. You are calm and centered and see two options in the very midst of the argument. The first option is to bring up some past mistake of the SO which not only takes the fight out of him/her, but also makes it feel like a knife struck them in the center of his/her soul. Fight over. with break/kill. The second option is to admit your part of the mistake, make an amend, turn his/her anger aside, and let it all pass-through.

Someone with a knife attacks. You adjust and control the knife hand. Break/kill means you drop them at your feet and wrist/elbow/shoulder are broken/dislocated or you deliver a finishing blow. Pass-through means that once you have the control, you allow them the option of "disarming" themselves. That means if they let go the knife and back off, you let them. If they attack anew and tweak/break their wrist, you let them. If their attack sends them to your feet, you let them, for you are at the point where you could break/kill, but you choose to redirect the energy elsewhere.

And yes, to stay on topic, it is at this point where one strike could kill. The real question in Aikido is does that one strike necessarily mean the physical one?

IMO,
Mark
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:43 AM   #198
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
But it has little to do with taking swords away, killing with one blow, or taking prisoners. Simply not called for in my daily life.
yeah, me neither, ever since the ninja's went back home it's been so quiet.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:45 PM   #199
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I think now we're back on "how" to train, rather than "what" to train.

Lynn - I'd love to hear your perspective on some of the irimi-tenkan principles in entering, atemi, etc. as compared to your experiences in the Filipino martial arts. My experiences dabbling with FMA are that they are excellent at duelling, changeup exchanges (as expressed with weapons and empty hands - wonderful consistency there), but not really along the lines of the one-shot one-kill ideas being discussed in this thread (of course that may be differences in the weapon derivations - knife versus sword - though when the knife is a machete . . . ).
I am much more into the conceptualization (how) behind the content (what), but the two are not really separate either. Its not an either/or thing.

While I did learn a lot of flowing multiple strikes (slice and dice), there was a lot of getting off the line, entering, getting that one slice or stab in, and out again too.

I'll see of I have the capacity to scan the old Black Belt article. Last I tried, it just didn't work.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:13 PM   #200
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Joseph Tutton wrote: View Post
A bokken coming from the Void.
You must have seen Seraphim Falls ...

Great movie. Best western made in the last ten years in my book.

Barring Firefly, of course.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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