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Old 11-17-2007, 06:27 PM   #151
dps
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Should one ever get to the point of mastery that your attacker is immobilized so that he can no longer attack or defend himself show some mercy.
Exactly , part of the point of the article, you have that choice.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
The reality of life is once an attack is nuetralized it is best to " Get out of Doge" rather than deliving the metsubishi. Lets try to keep it real.
Time to "Get out of Dodge" is before you get attacked ( maybe you should not be in Dodge).

David
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:06 AM   #152
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Exactly , part of the point of the article, you have that choice.

Time to "Get out of Dodge" is before you get attacked ( maybe you should not be in Dodge).

David
Agreed
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:36 PM   #153
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

[quote=David Skaggs;194210]"In Aikido, one punch, metsubishi, a death-dealing blow, is the reality!"

First, metsubishi is not "a death-dealing blow" as I understand it, but a blinding technique (not necessarily permanent) like flicking your fingertips across his eyes to momentarily mess up his vision. I don't know where the association with a "death-dealing blow" came from.

Second, and more important is this statement:

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"What the author is saying is that the goal is to immobilize your attacker with Aikido, only after the attacker is immobilized so that he can no longer attack or defend himself, then you deliver the final stike...Only after he can not move do you deliver metsubishi.
Taken in that way, you're describing nothing less than murder. A fatal atemi (if one is capable of delivering it at all) could only justifiably be delivered at the instant the attacker attacks. Getting him off balance, tangled up, thrown down and held immobile, then delivering a deadly strike would hardly meet Ueshiba's description of killing the attacker with a single blow. It's neither true aikido nor true budo to continue injuring an attacker when he can no longer hurt you. If you must injure him, it must be as he attacks, but past a basic level of skill, it's no longer necessary to injure him but better all around to take him under control and spare his life and limbs. What goes around comes around.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:13 PM   #154
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Here is a sad but very recent example of one punch one kill. Two 17 year olds at a local high school got into an altercation last week. The one starting the fight threw a punch and the guy being attacked threw one back landing on the side of the head of the attacker. The attacker passed out and subsequently died apparently never regaining consciousness. One punch one kill by a 17 year old with apparently no martial arts back ground.
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:40 PM   #155
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

By the way, I would think that if you strike someone after they have been immobilized it would constitute excessive force and you could be prosecuted.
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:41 PM   #156
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Here is a sad but very recent example of one punch one kill. Two 17 year olds at a local high school got into an altercation last week. The one starting the fight threw a punch and the guy being attacked threw one back landing on the side of the head of the attacker. The attacker passed out and subsequently died apparently never regaining consciousness. One punch one kill by a 17 year old with apparently no martial arts back ground.
John,

Do you have a link to the news item?

Ignatius
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:12 PM   #157
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Here is a sad but very recent example of one punch one kill. Two 17 year olds at a local high school got into an altercation last week. The one starting the fight threw a punch and the guy being attacked threw one back landing on the side of the head of the attacker. The attacker passed out and subsequently died apparently never regaining consciousness. One punch one kill by a 17 year old with apparently no martial arts back ground.
It can and does happen. How sad for both kids and their families. How much more should we be aware of this possibility. With great skill comes greater responsibility! And yes sometimes this means walking away with your tail between your legs to avoid violence, which can be much more difficult .

Last edited by gregg block : 11-19-2007 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:48 PM   #158
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

[quote=David Orange;194290]
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"In Aikido, one punch, metsubishi, a death-dealing blow, is the reality!"
I want it to be absolutely clear that I was quoting the person being quoted in the article( Shannon Kawika Phelps, 10th Dan Shorinjin Ryu Sait) and the above are not my words.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
.David description of killing the attacker with a single blow. It's neither true aikido nor true budo to continue
Again, not my words but the person quoted in the article.

David
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:52 PM   #159
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

[quote=David Orange;194290]
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"In Aikido, one punch, metsubishi, a death-dealing blow, is the reality!"

First, metsubishi is not "a death-dealing blow" as I understand it, but a blinding technique (not necessarily permanent) like flicking your fingertips across his eyes to momentarily mess up his vision. I don't know where the association with a "death-dealing blow" came from.

Second, and more important is this statement:

Taken in that way, you're describing nothing less than murder. A fatal atemi (if one is capable of delivering it at all) could only justifiably be delivered at the instant the attacker attacks. Getting him off balance, tangled up, thrown down and held immobile, then delivering a deadly strike would hardly meet Ueshiba's description of killing the attacker with a single blow. It's neither true aikido nor true budo to continue injuring an attacker when he can no longer hurt you. If you must injure him, it must be as he attacks, but past a basic level of skill, it's no longer necessary to injure him but better all around to take him under control and spare his life and limbs. What goes around comes around.

Best wishes.

David
It's no longer immediately necessary but bringing someone under control isn't by any means the end of the situation. If he's as capable of killing you do you risk letting him go? If he has a friend do you finish him off and move on to his friend or do you allow the situation to return to a two on one confrontation?

Now yes you can call the police and sort it that way, but a martial art that is dependent on someone else saving you is a bit daft. A complete art is technically based around killing and educating the practitioner about when and when not to kill.
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:12 PM   #160
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

The choice to show mercy or no mercy, injury or no injury, life or death should not be made before the attack but after you have immobilized your attacker. For your Aikido to be 100% your commitment to your defense needs to be 100%. If you decide beforehand to always show mercy your commitment to your defense will not be 100%. It may be adequate 99% of the time but that 1% will get you hurt or killed.

I do not want parity with my attacker, I do not want to spar with my attacker. I want to scare the hell out of him with overwhelming force. That takes 100% commitment.

David

Last edited by dps : 11-19-2007 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:57 AM   #161
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

[quote=Alex Lawrence;194323It's no longer immediately necessary but bringing someone under control isn't by any means the end of the situation. If he's as capable of killing you do you risk letting him go? If he has a friend do you finish him off and move on to his friend or do you allow the situation to return to a two on one confrontation?[/quote]

If that's the nature of the confrontation, that's the time to end it in the first instant--NOT take him under control. But having him "under control" means that he is subdued and you can let him go. Otherwise, he wasn't really under control. And multiple attackers is why aikido is "really" about ending the confrontation with one blow.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:43 AM   #162
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
...bringing someone under control isn't by any means the end of the situation. If he's as capable of killing you do you risk letting him go? If he has a friend do you finish him off and move on to his friend or do you allow the situation to return to a two on one confrontation?
First off, outside control is an illusion we believe in so that we feel safe. The only worthwhile form of control is that of your own mind. Secondly, it is the aggression that needs to be controlled, not the person. Lastly, If you do not possess the ability to control the aggression and need to resort to controlling the person for a relatively long period of time (longer than you are willing to hang around) instead: Hojojutsu.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I want to scare the hell out of him with overwhelming force.
Scare him? What if he knows no fear? Then what?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:00 AM   #163
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Ignatius, here is one of the links:

http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/news...d=475626&rfi=6
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:01 PM   #164
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Secondly, it is the aggression that needs to be controlled, not the person.
Guns don't kill people; people kill people.
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:16 PM   #165
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Guns don't kill people; people kill people.
Right, and sometimes people use guns to kill people, but I must be missing the point. As far as I know, unless it's an accident, it generally stems from uncontrolled aggression.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:51 PM   #166
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Right, and sometimes people use guns to kill people, but I must be missing the point. As far as I know, unless it's an accident, it generally stems from uncontrolled aggression.
Controlling another's emotion's is much more difficult than controlling their hands/feet/body.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:52 PM   #167
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
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Controlling another's emotion's is much more difficult than controlling their hands/feet/body.
I agree completely. I think we are misunderstanding each other slightly, and I think it is my fault for not expressing my thought thoroughly. I consider "controlling the person" akin to slavery or imprisonment. I believe people should have free choice, this is what I mean when I say that the "person" should not be controlled. I wasn't referring to the person's physical body, that of course, sometimes needs to be controlled as the body can be a tool for the physical manifestation of the person's aggression. But I don't believe aggression is purely an emotional condition either, it requires a balance of physical and emotional methods to control. Plus, aggresion is natural, so you wouldn't want to eradicate it even if you could (this would be, by my definition "controlling the person"), but sometimes it is neccesary to control it so that lasting damage is not caused by a temporary state of mind.

Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba wrote:
To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control aggression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:21 PM   #168
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Ignatius, here is one of the links:

http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/news...d=475626&rfi=6
Thanks John, from what I gathered from various news sources, the vic was knocked unconscious, fell back and hit his head on something. Various news reports seem to indicate that he had sustained a serious head injury. There is some suggestion that drugs were involved and suspicion that the vic was on drugs. Details are still sketchy.

As you know, any serious head injury can result in complications and fatality. Never mind if drugs were involved. Similar cases have occurred in the past - one incident which comes to mind in Australia - where a bouncer hit an unruly patron and knocked him to the pavement, which resulted in a head injury and instant fatality.

However, I think the discussion was centered on hitting the person and killing them where they stand - i.e. as it pertains to "one blow one kill". For example, a fatal strike to a vital point. To me, a subsequent head injury is a contributing factor to the "kill" and secondary to the hit.

Obviously, one hit KOs are possible in certain circumstances, and many arts, karate for example, have built-in redundancies, where a KO or a fatal strike to a vital point can be the result of 2 or more subsequent strikes.

Ignatius
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:58 PM   #169
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

So far, it is not clear if he hit his head at least according to the local news. They are reporting it as one blow . The autopsy has not been completed. The father alluded to the possibility of the fight being over drugs but nothing has been shown yet as to if drugs were in his system. Always a lot of speculation in the media here on everything. As indicated, details are still sketchy. Obviously, if he hit his head and that was the killing blow then it would be two blows.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:09 PM   #170
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Sure... but the 2nd blow to the head would be accidental, as a result of the fall rather than intentionally inflicted, although it could have been reasonably anticipated. Guess we'll have to wait for the ME's findings either way.

When you used the example, I was under quite a different impression. My initial thought was a blow to somewhere other than the head, which caused a KO and subsequent death. That would have certainly lent credence to the "one hit one kill" theory. Damn...

Ignatius
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:15 PM   #171
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

True. Depends on which blow killed him. However, I have always read that shots to the temple can kill you.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:39 PM   #172
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
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True. Depends on which blow killed him. However, I have always read that shots to the temple can kill you.
The death spots are those places your mother teaches you not to hit other children....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:41 PM   #173
aikidoc
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Ignatius. Tonights paper said it was a single blow to the left side of the head. No reference was cited to any secondary head trauma but the autopsy will take a while and 6 weeks on a drug tox test.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:56 AM   #174
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

IIRC, temples are listed as vital points. A shot at the right angle and depth can result in a fatality - probably due to the proximity of the temporal artery.

Ignatius
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:29 PM   #175
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
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Taken in that way, you're describing nothing less than murder. A fatal atemi (if one is capable of delivering it at all) could only justifiably be delivered at the instant the attacker attacks.
Probably true for a single attacker.

However, if you are up against multiple opponents, all intent upon doing you great bodily harm, and there is no reasonable chance of keeping that attacker pinned for the remainder of the encounter, it is likely to be justifiable to remove one combatant from causing you threat, by up to and including deadly force.

Laws in your states may vary, if by "justifiable" you mean "by law". If you mean "by morals", that's a whole new can o'worms. =)

Derek

Last edited by Dyryke : 11-26-2007 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Fixed html quotes
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