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Old 11-05-2007, 01:04 AM   #76
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I've never hidden anything from anyone. I always tell people exactly how I feel.
Since you brought it up....

A simple Google on Death Touch turned up a few things like....

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Touch-Sc.../dp/1581602812

The customer reviews are very interesting.

It does seem to refute your view that there is no science behind Dim Mak.

I met George Dillman back in the late 80's when he gave a lecture on Tsuki...

You might also wish to bring up your skepticism of Dim Mak and other forms here

http://www.kyusho.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Most of the folks here would be more than happy to share their experiance with you on the subject.

Bowing Down to you Don,

William Hazen
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:33 AM   #77
dps
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

My thread, my thread, what have you done to my beautiful thread. Its melting, melting, meltiiiiiing.

David

Last edited by dps : 11-05-2007 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:26 AM   #78
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Since you brought it up....

A simple Google on Death Touch turned up a few things like....

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Touch-Sc.../dp/1581602812

The customer reviews are very interesting.
I only had to read the first review:

As a martial artist and neuroscientist, I was looking forward to reading this book and learning what, if anything, is known about the science behind pressure points in general and dim mak in particular. While I admire the effort put forth by the author, and I look forward to a time when science has made substantial strides in understanding pressure points, we are just not there yet.

The author presents unrestrained speculation and passes it off as solidly established scientific fact. For example, he suggests that because the nerve fibers from certain pressure points enter the spinal column at the same segment as nerves that innervate the heart, then hitting those pressure points will obviously have an effect on the heart. But there is no evidence presented (or in existance presumably) that these nerves actually make contact with one another! Simply because they are in the same room does not mean they shake hands.

That example is indicative of the general style of the book. In the instances where the author actually does make reference to some published study, the evidence cited typically relates to basic physiology and medicine and has no direct connection to pressure points per se.

The subject matter of this book is quite interesting -- that's why I bought it after all -- but to say that the author presents what is *known* about the physiology of dim mak is misleading and incorrect. At best the author has presented a theoretical framework for future scientific investigation. At worst, he has presented a completely incredible, wildly speculative, totally unproven view of the science behind dim mak.

Besides that, the diagrams included in the book are under-labeled, unattractive, and marginally useful (simply including a labeled point chart for each meridian or vessel would be a vast improvement). The reader shouldn't be forced to refer to another text with better figures just to have an idea where on the body a certain point is.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
It does seem to refute your view that there is no science behind Dim Mak.
Or, it proves my point. A bunch of bad pseudoscience passed off as proof.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I met George Dillman back in the late 80's when he gave a lecture on Tsuki...
This guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

It seems everyone but his own students and admirers are in the 2% of the population immune to the death touch. It also seems the death touch is negated by simply putting your tonge in a spot in your mouth, or lifting a toe. James Randi would have a field day with him. Start watching around 3:26 if you want to see him fail at getting even a single non-student to pass out. What he does is nothing more the build a cult of followers that are brainwashed to do exactly what he wants them to do. Then he tries to sell it to suckers.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
You might also wish to bring up your skepticism of Dim Mak and other forms here

http://www.kyusho.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Most of the folks here would be more than happy to share their experiance with you on the subject.

Bowing Down to you Don,

William Hazen
Normally, I wouldn't bother. However, I'll happily post for proof there. I doubt I will find any more then what I find here. Most likely it will go like this (paraphrased)

Me: What scientific proof do we have of a death touch?
Them: You must study with a master in order to understand, you are not worth talking to.
Me: If you can provide me with proof, I will go study.
Them: Some guy was once killed in a bar fight from a punch!
Me: Was the attacker trained in death touch?
Them: No
Me: So it was random bad luck?
Them: No
Me: So do we have scientific proof you can teach this skill with any reliability?
Them: You are close minded, if you want proof please fly across the country to so and so's dojo. He will show you (snicker).
Me: Sigh......

But if you seriously think I will find real answers there and you really mean that, then I will try posting there.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:37 AM   #79
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Death touch? Me knows, me knows a way... it involves 240V 2A live current.... and no insulation.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:08 AM   #80
Timothy WK
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Whoa, whoa! Who's talking about a "death touch" here? Don't exaggerate or distort what people are saying.

--Timothy Kleinert
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:18 AM   #81
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

We are saying there are people out there, who have developed and can teach a way to reliably (which means more often then not) kill a person with a single strike.
In essence, if you take one of these guys, and sick 10 people on him one at a time, more then 6 of them will be dead by a single strike.

Sounds like a death touch.

Last edited by DonMagee : 11-05-2007 at 08:20 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:31 AM   #82
Timothy WK
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Gawd, that's a total distortion of what previous posters (myself included) have said.

There's a distinction between crushing someone's throat or throwing someone on their head, and some esoteric dim mak "touch" of death.

--Timothy Kleinert
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:42 AM   #83
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I doubt I will find any more then what I find here. Most likely it will go like this (paraphrased)

Me: What scientific proof do we have of a death touch?
Them: You must study with a master in order to understand, you are not worth talking to.
Me: If you can provide me with proof, I will go study.
Them: Some guy was once killed in a bar fight from a punch!
Me: Was the attacker trained in death touch?
Them: No
Me: So it was random bad luck?
Them: No
Me: So do we have scientific proof you can teach this skill with any reliability?
Them: You are close minded, if you want proof please fly across the country to so and so's dojo. He will show you (snicker).
Me: Sigh......

But if you seriously think I will find real answers there and you really mean that, then I will try posting there.
The answers were given to you here and they were not given as your above example. You chose to ignore them, however.

Mark
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:17 AM   #84
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The answers were given to you here and they were not given as your above example. You chose to ignore them, however.

Mark
Let's see. We did make it very far down my above given example.

Lets start

Me: What scientific proof do we have of a death touch? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=28

Them: You must study with a master in order to understand, you are not worth talking to. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=29
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=31

Me: If you can provide me with proof, I will go study. - ok, so I guess I skipped this step until later.

Them: Some guy was once killed in a bar fight from a punch! - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=53

Me: Was the attacker trained in death touch? - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=59

Them: No - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=60
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=61

Me: So it was random bad luck? - same as above.
Them: No

Me: So do we have scientific proof you can teach this skill with any reliability? - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=62

Them: You are close minded, if you want proof please fly across the country to so and so's dojo. He will show you (snicker). - I've been called closed minded, and apparently simply asking for proof is not a 'straw man tactic', however, nobody has called me out yet. But i'm waiting for it.

Me: Sigh...... - already doing it.

Look, I won't argue (as i've said 10000000000 times) that you can kill a person with a punch. Like you said, a punch to the throat or the back of the skull *may* kill a person. This is not the same and teaching and developing the ability to kill a person in a single blow. How often does a punch to the throat kill a person? I'd guess it rare just based on the fact I've been punched in the throat a few times and I am still alive. Not to mention the people in my town who punch each other in the throat as a form of martial art.

The question is not "can someone be killed by this?" In every case the answer is always yes. Can a person be killed by a toothpick? yes. Can a person be killed by drinking water? Yes. Can a person be killed with a rubber band? Yes.

The question is this.

Can you teach someone to reliably kill with a toothpick?

Lets look at this post http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=65

The poster claims his karate instructor has taught students to kill with every strike. That is how I read it. Now honestly, what chance do you give each strike thrown by that instructor to kill in a fight?

I would state that killing a person with punches and kicks is going to normally be a battle of attrition until knock out is achieved.

A lot of people feel other people and think "wow, that was hard, I'm sure it would kill me if he goes all out." They have no appreciation for how much physical trauma a body can take. Especially a body in motion. On top of that, unlike throws, weapons, and joint locks, there is little supporting evidence that it is even possible to have a good chance of killing a person with a unarmed strike. Even the most common side effect (a knock out) from say a turning strike to the chin (like a hook) is very rare. And this is the goal of a hook, to knock your opponent out. Yet anyone trained in sport striking will know to keep punching because the likelihood of that happening is not as high as we wish it was. To say "I have a one punch knock out" is a pipe dream.

We can say every strike has the potential to do harm. That is true. We can say that every strike has the potential to knock you out. That is also true. But at this point it is not nearly as true as the first statement.
Moving on to every strike has the potential to kill is even less likely and even less true.

I could get behind this when people say "well, we are talking about a hidden weapon.". But I just can't get behind people bringing up wackos like dillman and talking about how they can develop the ability to kill a person reliably while unarmed and using a single strike. Can you beat a man to death unarmed? Sure. Can you teach and develop the skill to kill a man with a single strike? I'm just not buying it.

Hell I wish it was true. It would be very cool. To know you are walking around as this huge human weapon, able to kill with just one punch. To know all you have to do is get inside and throw that one perfect strike. Very reassuring. But still very unproven and in my opinion, very impossible.

So this must be what we are talking about, the death touch. Because if we were not, why would people argue against me. I'm not saying a punch can't kill. They only way you could argue against me is to argue that it is possible to develop death touch. Seriously, think about it. We are talking about a death touch. The ability to kill in a single blow when you choose to and not by random chance in a fury of strikes.

Last edited by DonMagee : 11-05-2007 at 09:22 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:41 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quick weigh-in on a couple of things. I think it's possible that while a lot may talk about atemi in aikido, it may not be that those talking about it are training to effectively deliver them, so maybe just saying one trains to strike isn't the same as doing it.

I can't really fault the "show me" stance, but I try not to make any kind of blanket statements definitively either way, because I'm always finding out that the world's a lot bigger, with a lot more cool stuff in it, than I'd previously suspected, so . . . I just try to get out and see more of it whenever I can.

Last edited by Budd : 11-05-2007 at 09:43 AM.

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Old 11-05-2007, 10:34 AM   #86
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Let's see. We did make it very far down my above given example.

Lets start

Me: What scientific proof do we have of a death touch? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=28

Them: You must study with a master in order to understand, you are not worth talking to. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=29
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=31

Me: If you can provide me with proof, I will go study. - ok, so I guess I skipped this step until later.

Them: Some guy was once killed in a bar fight from a punch! - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=53

Me: Was the attacker trained in death touch? - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=59

Them: No - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=60
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=61

Me: So it was random bad luck? - same as above.
Them: No

Me: So do we have scientific proof you can teach this skill with any reliability? - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=62

Them: You are close minded, if you want proof please fly across the country to so and so's dojo. He will show you (snicker). - I've been called closed minded, and apparently simply asking for proof is not a 'straw man tactic', however, nobody has called me out yet. But i'm waiting for it.

Me: Sigh...... - already doing it.

Look, I won't argue (as i've said 10000000000 times) that you can kill a person with a punch. Like you said, a punch to the throat or the back of the skull *may* kill a person. This is not the same and teaching and developing the ability to kill a person in a single blow. How often does a punch to the throat kill a person? I'd guess it rare just based on the fact I've been punched in the throat a few times and I am still alive. Not to mention the people in my town who punch each other in the throat as a form of martial art.

The question is not "can someone be killed by this?" In every case the answer is always yes. Can a person be killed by a toothpick? yes. Can a person be killed by drinking water? Yes. Can a person be killed with a rubber band? Yes.

The question is this.

Can you teach someone to reliably kill with a toothpick?

Lets look at this post http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=65

The poster claims his karate instructor has taught students to kill with every strike. That is how I read it. Now honestly, what chance do you give each strike thrown by that instructor to kill in a fight?

I would state that killing a person with punches and kicks is going to normally be a battle of attrition until knock out is achieved.

A lot of people feel other people and think "wow, that was hard, I'm sure it would kill me if he goes all out." They have no appreciation for how much physical trauma a body can take. Especially a body in motion. On top of that, unlike throws, weapons, and joint locks, there is little supporting evidence that it is even possible to have a good chance of killing a person with a unarmed strike. Even the most common side effect (a knock out) from say a turning strike to the chin (like a hook) is very rare. And this is the goal of a hook, to knock your opponent out. Yet anyone trained in sport striking will know to keep punching because the likelihood of that happening is not as high as we wish it was. To say "I have a one punch knock out" is a pipe dream.

We can say every strike has the potential to do harm. That is true. We can say that every strike has the potential to knock you out. That is also true. But at this point it is not nearly as true as the first statement.
Moving on to every strike has the potential to kill is even less likely and even less true.

I could get behind this when people say "well, we are talking about a hidden weapon.". But I just can't get behind people bringing up wackos like dillman and talking about how they can develop the ability to kill a person reliably while unarmed and using a single strike. Can you beat a man to death unarmed? Sure. Can you teach and develop the skill to kill a man with a single strike? I'm just not buying it.

Hell I wish it was true. It would be very cool. To know you are walking around as this huge human weapon, able to kill with just one punch. To know all you have to do is get inside and throw that one perfect strike. Very reassuring. But still very unproven and in my opinion, very impossible.

So this must be what we are talking about, the death touch. Because if we were not, why would people argue against me. I'm not saying a punch can't kill. They only way you could argue against me is to argue that it is possible to develop death touch. Seriously, think about it. We are talking about a death touch. The ability to kill in a single blow when you choose to and not by random chance in a fury of strikes.
Really disappointed in you Don.

First The conversation was about effective Atemi and Striking

You escalated it to Death Touch when presented with anecdotal evidence

Second: There were a dozen reviews of the book I provided a link for a few of them medical professionals You took the first review out of context and ignored the rest. hardly "Scientific" on your part.

Third Rather than have the balls to quote me directly you refer to some of my post and say my Karate Teachers were teaching me how to kill. what I said was the focus of the training was to strike with power including disabling/killing the opponent.

Last. Your reasoning is sound though extreme. Why train for a Death Touch if we train to make every Tsuki have the potential to disable of kill? I saw Dillman before he was infamous and asked him this very question....He did not have a real answer...You're the one who brought this to an extreme...Like it or not every Asian striking art I have ever experianced has this kind of focus (even some forms of Aikido) Whay get all hot a bothered about it stud???

You sir have no intent to have an intelligent discussion and will do anything including obfuscate quotes in order to protect your views...



Since you are wondering Why call you out??? If we just happen to bump into each other I know I will extend my hand and introduce myself. I will know within 5 seconds if it's Internet Bravado on your part. If you wish to take issue with me Well...All I know is that having been "called out" a few times No one has carried it through when I meet them in person and some of those have apologized for thier actions and I have apologized for my part too.

As for me I will look at my part in this and see how I can better communicate in the future.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-05-2007 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:54 AM   #87
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
What is the chance that when you are fighting someone that wants to hurt you that you can pull off that death strike? 1 in 5? 1 in 100? It is not a significant risk. It is silly to train for it. You are better of training for something more likely to happen.
Training for it makes it more likely that you can do it.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-05-2007, 11:06 AM   #88
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I've talked to medical doctors, done research on my own, spoken to people who claim they can do it, spoken to high ranking karataka, aikidoka, and even a 'ninja'. Nobody has proven me that throwing a single strike is the best way to disable or kill someone.
Since aikido comes from the sword, if we train that way and think that way, the chances of success become better and better. But no one has said it's guaranteed to work 100% of the time. What does? Naturally, if your technique doesn't work, you need to be ready with a follow-up, but why did Ueshiba say what he did?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
It' my exp that the first punch rarely knocks anyone out, that is why you throw combos. If you could pull this off and train reliably to knock out with one punch, you better believe sport athletes would be focusing their energies into doing just that.
But budo is not sport. It's preparation for emergency. It's not to prepare you to fight insurgents but to escape a sudden, deadly attack by one or more people. No one (in his right mind) wants to face death or to show it to anyone else. But to fail to address death seriously is to fail to understand budo.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:14 AM   #89
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Hmm...I smell testosterone.
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:28 AM   #90
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
We are saying there are people out there, who have developed and can teach a way to reliably (which means more often then not) kill a person with a single strike.
So, Don: what did Morihei Ueshiba mean by his comment that aikido kills the attacker with a single blow?

Please explain that one.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-05-2007, 11:30 AM   #91
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Thumbs down Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Jeez... I don't want to accuse anyone of missing the point or anything, but, as I understand it, Aikido is about NOT killing people , in fact, I'm pretty sure it's also about NOT even injuring people . It seems to be more about unity and harmony .

DEATH TOUCH!!??!! On an Aikido forum??!!?? Are you guys freakin' serious ?!!?? DEATH TOUCH??!!??

Ok, i'll humor this: maybe with acupuncture needles ala "Kiss of the Dragon" if I was eleven, but seriously... no.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

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Old 11-05-2007, 11:36 AM   #92
Mattias Bengtsson
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post

So this must be what we are talking about, the death touch. Because if we were not, why would people argue against me. I'm not saying a punch can't kill.
I seem to recall that it was you who brought up the "50% chance of killing in a blow for it to be scientifically reliable" -not anyone else.
So part of the argument that's going on is because a punch to the -say larynx, that has the possibility to kill, but can't be counted on doing so in at least half of the cases, then it's not a "lethal attack", that is the source of the objection.

Imagine the consequences of this:
You can't convict anyone any more for murder if they're beaten to death by someone unarmed, since it would not be statistically reliable for a punch or a kick to kill anyone.

Or what of firearms? since over 50% of people shot by 9mm bullets survive, then maybe 9mm should be re-classified as non-lethal?

Yes, I'm exaggerating to the point of silliness.
-I'm charming that way.

Back when I trained Karate I had a teacher who used the description of "The intent of Karate is to defeat in a single blow"

Not to "kill" but to "defeat" or "incapacitate".

He never tried to sell us a mythic punch or kick, but used it as a description of the mindset we should have when doing a technique. To deliver next strike as it was the last.

And that's how I've chosen to interpret the "one punch" part of the article as well as the quote by Ueshiba.
I.e. not literally but in a realistic context.
I've also chosen not to interpret "strike" as specifically a punch, but
can imagine it being used as a throw as well.

My current Aikido teacher stresses the importance of safety when we train by mentioning that while in the Dojo a Shi ho nage don't look so bad, but out on the street it means dislocating someones arm and slamming them head first down in the pavement.

Basically defeating someone with one attack.

So, by choosing to substitute "kill" by "defeat", a less violent expression, I am able to digest the article more easily when it comes to beliefs I might not share.

Just like when it comes to the bible, some people have read the article literally, and chosen to believe it.
Some people have read it literally, and chosen to disbelieve it.
--and then some people have chosen to form their own opinion, and stay out of the argument.

Uke Iacta Est
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:37 AM   #93
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Jeez... I don't want to accuse anyone of missing the point or anything, but, as I understand it, Aikido is about NOT killing people , in fact, I'm pretty sure it's also about NOT even injuring people . It seems to be more about unity and harmony .
Well, how would you explain Ueshiba's comment, then?

"I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again. [On the other hand], I can't go around killing my students."

I believe that it's only from facing the reality of martial arts--that, if necessary, you could kill the attacker or he could kill you--that you can develop the real attitudes of unity and harmony.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:44 AM   #94
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
what did Morihei Ueshiba mean by his comment that aikido kills the attacker with a single blow?
from The Man, Himself...

Quote:
The Illustrious and Revered Morihei Ueshiba wrote:

"Progress comes to those who train and train. Reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."

"Ultimately you must forget about technique."

"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control aggression without inflicting injury is The Art of Peace"

"An attack is proof that one is out of control."

"It consists in defeating your adversaries spiritually by making them realize the folly of their actions."
...and many more.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:53 AM   #95
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
from The Man, Himself...

...and many more.
Ueshiba did say those things. And most of the time, he did show his opponents jumping up to attack again.

But when it came time to show the emperor--his God at at that time--he said, ""I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again. [On the other hand], I can't go around killing my students.""

So what we have in modern aikido is either an art that is a "front" for something more real and deadly or, as Ledyard Sensei said earlier, it is an art that has been made into a hollow shell.

The quotes you gave illustrate the "tatemae" or "surface truth" of aikido, while "the opponent is killed with one blow" illustrates the "honne" or "real truth" of the art.

If you have that real truth, then you can "choose" not to injure the attacker. If not, you don't "choose" not to injure him but just do whatever you happen to be able to do. Then it's chance. And training is for the purpose of reducing the element of chance in an encounter. And having a deadly technique as the "foundation" or "first possibility" is what allows the aikido man to "choose" a less-deadly option.

Otherwise, "why" did Ueshiba say """I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again."???

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:29 PM   #96
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So, Don: what did Morihei Ueshiba mean by his comment that aikido kills the attacker with a single blow?

Please explain that one.

Thanks.

David
I would need much more context then a single quote in order to even speculate.

But, it if was to do some without it, I would state he was possibly referring to weapons, or maybe was just repeating a misconception. The man was not god, and it is possible he was not right on every thing. He could of even possibly been delusional. Was this an early quote or a later quote? Perhaps he was referring to disabling your opponent though combat, then killing with a single blow from your weapon. AKA finishing completely. Maybe it was just a mindset, it wasn't about if it was real or possible, it was to have that mindset to control your movements. If you really think every single blow will kill you, then you are going to practice a lot harder. Of course on the flip side, if you believe every single blow you throw can kill, then you are going to be at a disadvantage when you find out you are wrong.

I really don't care what the man said.

"The intent of Karate is to defeat in a single blow" - this is a little more reasonable, but still unrealistic. This kind of statement, used improperly leads to expectation.

David Orange, you said training increases ability to perform. You are correct, but there are still limits. This is why a focus on the basics is important. Basics are what works, fancy technique is opportunistic. A single targeted 'death' strike would be a fancy technique, it would require expert setup, timing, execution with no mistakes in order to work. If you were truly training as if life and death were on the line, why would you use this as a model of life and death? I would want much better tools, and be much more afraid of high percentage disabling attacks then that single death strike.

Yes, i brought up the 50% change of a death touch. What I actually said was that I did not believe in the one strike one kill. Not that I did not believe a strike could kill you. In fact in a flurry of strikes that kill you, obviously one of them is the death dealing blow. So my point was, there is no such thing as one strike one kill unless you can prove someone can be taught to use this reliably. Meaning there is a guy out there that can fight 10 fights, and finish greater then half of them in a single strike. Otherwise, you are not talking about technique, you are not talking about training for one strike one kill, you are talking about training for lucky happenstance. Poor martial arts indeed.

I see the budo is not sport argument used here. It really makes no sense. The claim here is that if there was a one punch knock out skill that could be taught (instead of the punchers chance), that sport athletes would of learned it by now and use it, and they would know high percentage ways to defend it. However, they do not, so the chances of it existing is very low. This statement is not at odds with budo not being about fighting. In fact, what is implied here is that sports will not bother to learn these things because they want to prolong a fight. This is not true, they are training to win. If it was as simple as a punch to meridian 17 or something, then they would all be training it. But instead they throw bunches of punches and wait for the one that sends them down.

But some people are up in arms with these statements. It challenges their core beliefs in the super natural. One post says it doesn't have to work 100% to be real. So I ask, what percentage does it take to go from luck to technique? Lets say I 10 thousand people in the face. If one of them dies, can I now claim the death touch? Can I now teach it? Is it a real technique and real science? Using that study as proof, would you bother to learn this if you wanted to learn how to kill with a single blow? Now lets say I did the same thing, only 6 thousand of them died. How would that change the answers?

And finally, I am not challenging anyone to a fight on the internet, there is no bravado as it seems I'm being read into. Rather I was stating that eventually, someone is going to tell me to go pick a fight with 'so and so' who has the real death touch if I have any doubts. It happens all the time, and in fact that person will always be thousands of miles away and not even aware of this conversation. Then my refusal to spend the cash to go bully and old man will be taken as proof I am wrong. Otherwise known as the Ashida Kim defense. I think fighting matches from the internet is silly and childish. If I meet one of you in person, I will be just like I am here. This is how I talk, this is how I act. But I am not going to challenge anyone to a fight. I might challenge them for proof, and if that proof requires sparing, then I am down for it. But that is as far as I go.

Finally, William Hazen,

The bulk of the reviews on that book had a few things in common. Either they really want to believe and thus say it is great, but then say things like:
"All that said, it's true that there's a lot of speculation about things that would be hard to test, and haven't been tested. I personally still doubt if acupuncture and so on work reliably for healing, but this does provide a possible explanation for how they could work. "

Or they reference dillman, which throws their opinion out in my book. As anyone who believes in that man in my opinion needs help.

Or they say it has no scientific basis. In fact such a book really means nothing in a scientific sense, and therefor can be dismissed as proof. Rather the book is an example of poor pseudoscience targeted at believers. It reminds me a lot of when I talk to old time martial arts instructors and they talk about the nose into the brain killing technique. This book appears to be along the same lines, show some pictures and general anatomy. Then make broad claims on things with no studies to back you up. If my library had the book, I would give it a full review. But I am not paying money for something I already suspect from reading ALL the reviews, to be garbage.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:44 PM   #97
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So what we have in modern aikido is either an art that is a "front" for something more real and deadly
Why does something have to be deadly to be real?

Killing someone is admitting defeat. It is saying "I lose, I wasn't good enough technically or creatively to resolve this conflict by any other means, so I'm taking the easy way out".

I don't understand this apparent widespread delusion that the "real" techniques of Aikido are being hidden. It's as silly as the president's search for WMDs in Iraq.

And anyway, If one can't figure out how to kill for themselves, then maybe it's better that they don't know.

Are people who shoot for practice at a target demonstrating "false technique"? I think everyone from the emperor on down understands what the little holes in the paper mean. Unless, Morihei thought the Emperor was a complete idiot who wouldn't be able to understand the true nature of the thing being demonstrated without blood being spilled. Seems unlikely. Who knows what was going through his mind when he made that comment? Maybe some Shinto thing about the Emperor we'll never fully understand. But for me, I'd bet all the tea in china, it wasn't the death touch.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:16 PM   #98
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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I don't understand this apparent widespread delusion that the "real" techniques of Aikido are being hidden.
Exactly! But that's what I'm reading in the article quoted -- that the basic assumption you make in Aikido is that one punch by an 'Aikido master' will kill, therefore everything else that exists in Aikido is all about working around that. Since I no of no one in Aikido (or elsewhere, for that matter) who has ever actually done this (has a one-punch kill) and have only even distantly heard of people who have even claimed or tried to develop this, the article would suggest, as you say, that the 'real' techniques of Aikido are being hidden.

Which I think is silly.
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:41 PM   #99
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I have seen the Systema folks do amazing things with their striking. Once again, I have no doubt at all that one of the senior folks could kill you with one blow if they decided to direct the energy at a particular organ. One of Vlad's senior instructors did fight some locally prominent mixed martial arts fighter up in Toronto and it ended in one strike.
Sorry but with all respect for you Aikido knowledge that is Bullshido. One shot might knock you out or hurt you but unless your very very very unlucky you're not going to die. All the stuff about directing energy against organs is mumbo jumbo.

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
It just isn't as simple as pumping up and taking some Muy Thai or Boxing lessons. That's pure physical power and it just isn't the same.
That is unfair comment on the boxing arts. Muai Thai and boxing are not pure physical power. Their devastating punching power comes from getting their hips and body weight behind their blows and absorbing recoil via a good stance. This is technical not physical. The physical aspect of Muai Thai and Boxing is conditioning the body to last several rounds and absorb punishment.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So, Don: what did Morihei Ueshiba mean by his comment that aikido kills the attacker with a single blow?
Either Ueshiba is being misquoted or he was making fanciful claims to promote his art. Or by that stage he was delusional.

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Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
Or what of firearms? since over 50% of people shot by 9mm bullets survive, then maybe 9mm should be re-classified as non-lethal?
Well as you correctly point out over 50% of people shot with a 9mm bullet survive. This shows what a sheer fantasy the one punch kill is. Aikidoka should not delude themselfs into believing in one punch Aikido kills. Learn boxing style punches and clock your opponent on the jaw. If your lucky you'll knock them out and not break your hand. This other stuff should be reserved for Segal movies only.

Last edited by Aiki x : 11-05-2007 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 01:51 PM   #100
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Why does something have to be deadly to be real?
It doesn't have to be, but in this case, Ueshiba said that if the opponent can jump up and attack again, then it is false. So if that's false, then the "deadly" is "real."

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Killing someone is admitting defeat. It is saying "I lose, I wasn't good enough technically or creatively to resolve this conflict by any other means, so I'm taking the easy way out".
According to Don, it's the harder, almost impossible way out. But it really does come to that: what if you're not good enough technically to overcome someone (or lots of someones) with shiho nage? What if your blending circles just take you into more opponents? Aikido comes from the sword. "The sword that spares life" has to be chosen, but if the sword is incapable of "taking life," then it is not capable of "sparing life". Whatever happens depends on chance and luck. The truth is, when the chips are all the way down and the opponent does intend to kill you, you won't put all your life and hopes and dreams and your children's future on a platitude and accept that he can just take your life because your shiho nage was a little off. One guy on these boards espoused peacefulness, but admitted that if an opponent managed to get him on the ground and was sitting on his chest, getting ready to smash his face in, then he would do whatever he could to kill the guy.

Unfortunately, it would then be too late.

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
I don't understand this apparent widespread delusion that the "real" techniques of Aikido are being hidden.
Not at all. Ueshiba said outright that real aikido kills the attacker with a single blow. And there are many photographs of him demonstrating this technique. So I don't think this one is hidden.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
And anyway, If one can't figure out how to kill for themselves, then maybe it's better that they don't know.
Maybe...but I'd rather a "good" person, who's doing good things in general, have access to those highly refined methods than leave them at the mercy of muggers.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Are people who shoot for practice at a target demonstrating "false technique"?
Not in my experience. In fact, just between you and the instructor, you may bet a few "extra" lessons about how to make a shot deadlier. The common saying on shooting ranges is "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." Lip service is paid to "shooting to stop," but confidentially, they shoot to kill.

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
I think everyone from the emperor on down understands what the little holes in the paper mean. Unless, Morihei thought the Emperor was a complete idiot who wouldn't be able to understand the true nature of the thing being demonstrated without blood being spilled. Seems unlikely.
No blood need be spilled for that technique to work. But how many people have seen aikido and said, "Oh, that's fake!"?? Almost everyone who sees it for the first time thinks it's a show. Morihei knew that and knew that the Emperor would think he and his students were putting him on. As it was, showing "the lie," he broke the arm of one of the two ukes and Gozo Shioda had to take ukemi for the rest of the entire demo.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Who knows what was going through his mind when he made that comment? Maybe some Shinto thing about the Emperor we'll never fully understand. But for me, I'd bet all the tea in china, it wasn't the death touch.
No, it wasn't "the death touch," but a killing blow derived from a sword strking method and koppo, the art of breaking bones and dislocating joints. Uehsiba learned from Sokaku Takeda of whom it would not be unfair to say that he killed "many" people in his time. Can you think of any examples of anyone ever giving Sokaku Takeda a hard time, technically? His reputation was of having the opponent under total control from the first moment. And he taught that the art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance. How could he do that?

People today tend to think that people like Ueshiba and Takeda were pretty much the same as us, when we can have no concept of how they lived day to day. They were rooted in the samurai ethic, where losing meant dying and the only way not to lose, most often meant killing. Without this understanding, "budo" practice itself becomes delusional.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 11-05-2007 at 01:56 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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