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Old 11-02-2007, 08:02 AM   #201
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Johnny Couch wrote: View Post
Verification G-man! Proof! Proof! Proof! Not just opinions of your self or abilities.
I'm amused by this, because Giancarlo said that exact same thing to me in another thread, and when I suggested that he was full of faecal matter the thread got closed down.

WRT the issue of proof of ones claims. I've said before (most recently to Giancarlo actually) and would just like to say again that I usually prefer to take someone at their word. That doesn't satisfy everyone though, and unfortunately for Giancarlo, people have offered testimony here, and always against him.

I think (IMO) its time to close this thread down really. I can't see it going anywhere except down the toilet.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 11-02-2007, 08:17 AM   #202
Don
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Seems to me there are really two questions running around in this thread. One is whether it is useful to train with varying types of resistances by uke. This is a good question and there have been insightful comments on this thread and also over on at least two other related threads but the one that comes to mind right now is the VOE: Active Resistance thread. The other question/issue seems to be when is the appropriate time for such training, and why aikido shihan and organizations might not accept such training from Mr. Diperio or any other outsider. This has nothing to do with the first question. Any aikido organization or any organization for that matter fosters its own procedures, customs, and expertise.

An outsider to the organization will have a hard it not impossible time making an idea known or in challenging the organization. The organization and top students have little if anything to gain AS AN ORGANIZATION by dealing with someone who comes in and tries to challenge what they are doing. Notice I said AS AN ORGANIZATION. Someone may have perfectly valid and good ideas, but to try and assume the position of knowing something more than the top students and shihan of an organization and then trying to challenge them as an outsider seems to me to be like Don Quixote tilting at windmills....unless you like the feeling of banging your head against a wall. Either you work within and as part of an organization for change, accepting the pitfalls as well as advantages of that approach, or you go and start your own school/organization and politely leave the folks in those other organizations alone.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 08:32 AM   #203
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

You know, in terms of taking folks at their word, these days I'm of two minds. I like in general to give people the benefit of the doubt - usually don't see a reason not to 1) Because I don't usually care that much what someone else says - hence the essentially agreeable smiling and nodding. 2) Because usually there's no way to tell either way based on a discussion in a forum whether someone can do what they say they can.

The thing is, on the other hand, any time claims get made or any kind of skill/ability/authority is claimed (whether it's directly or indirectly by one's experience, rank, teacher, organization, style, etc.) it also shows up on the radar of "That's nice, but . . ." for a number of folks, I suspect. There's other indicators that can flag as well, but I think a lot of what's seen here is just an ongoing surface level dialogue between some people, factions, etc.

The truth is that behind the scenes, there's lots of folks in various organizations running around meeting up with other folks to level set, see what people are doing (versus what they say they're doing) and so forth. A lot of times, it doesn't get talked about here (other times, it does, with varying results ). I think one of the differences is that some folks post here to participate (cool!) while others use this as an opportunity to network, get ideas on what people are exploring and see who they want to get hands on in person (and stealing everything they possibly can along the way).

(For the record, Ecosamurai, before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not implying you are in either group, or that you are good or sucky, or that you're saying you are good or sucky, just speaking from my own experiences here )

But what does boil down to a basic truth, I think, is that people here tend to get more credibility, whether it's stated or implicit, when 1) What they write is read as reasonable AND/OR 2) Enough people have felt what they're doing to vouch (either here or with other folks behind the scenes - it may never be talked about publicly) that they can do what they say they can.

And from my perspective, I see this happening domestically (from my poin of view in the USA) and internationally. Which is probably my favorite thing about this forum - it's done a lot for me to help make the big budo world that much smaller in terms of getting out to meet/see people And for that alone, I'm indebted to Jun for providing this forum that facilitates these opportunities.

Taikyoku Mind & Body
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Old 11-02-2007, 08:51 AM   #204
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
(For the record, Ecosamurai, before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not implying you are in either group, or that you are good or sucky, or that you're saying you are good or sucky, just speaking from my own experiences here )
I try not to jump to any conclusions, I think I have in the past simply misinterpreted your writing style, just FYI.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 11-02-2007, 08:53 AM   #205
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I try not to jump to any conclusions, I think I have in the past simply misinterpreted your writing style, just FYI.

Mike
No worries, mate. Blarney do blarney be

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Old 11-02-2007, 09:01 AM   #206
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

just come to Nagoya...with your gi!
 
Old 11-02-2007, 09:29 AM   #207
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Don's points are well taken. Any attempt to effect change from the outside will be met with resistance. Change is challenging even from within and organization. To be an effective change agent, one must put the time and training into the organization and rise within the organizational hierarchy with leadership skills and credibility. Getting people from the outside to take you seriously, especially when you have not punched the tickets will generally not be well received unless you are retained as a management consultant with the appropriate credentials. The issue of credentials has been brought up numerous times to no avail.

Even when one within the organization sees the need for change, it can still be difficult. Change is generally not successful unless their is ownership and commitment by the majority of the stakeholders.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 09:40 AM   #208
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
The truth is that behind the scenes, there's lots of folks in various organizations running around meeting up with other folks to level set, see what people are doing (versus what they say they're doing) and so forth. A lot of times, it doesn't get talked about here (other times, it does, with varying results ). I think one of the differences is that some folks post here to participate (cool!) while others use this as an opportunity to network, get ideas on what people are exploring and see who they want to get hands on in person (and stealing everything they possibly can along the way).
There do seem to be quite a few people running around meeting other people. And that's a good thing, IMO. And it's something that I think gives the Aikido world some hope. From the Expos by Stan to the AikiWeb seminars by Jun, people are getting exposed to aikido outside their own sphere of influence. And then you have people in organizations that work together when they can, like Ikeda working with Ushiro and Utada. And then you have outside people doing seminars for Aikido, like Amdur and Akuzawa.

These cross connections are what I think will provide the biggest breakthroughs and the catalyst for future growth in aikido. As George Ledyard has posted, he saw a lot of good stuff from Vlad and Sigman. Stuff that will help his progression in Aikido. And it's these kinds of leaps and bounds that will push the Aikido world forward. And it's only a matter of time before we get another level of person like Tohei. And by level, I don't just mean ability in aiki, but I also mean charismatic and teaching. (Or, for a different, but easier example, think Seagal and how his movies changed the aikido world.)

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
And from my perspective, I see this happening domestically (from my poin of view in the USA) and internationally. Which is probably my favorite thing about this forum - it's done a lot for me to help make the big budo world that much smaller in terms of getting out to meet/see people And for that alone, I'm indebted to Jun for providing this forum that facilitates these opportunities.
Yeah, it's amazing how small the budo world ends up being.

I'll echo that last part, too. Thanks Jun!

Mark
 
Old 11-02-2007, 09:58 AM   #209
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
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And it's only a matter of time before we get another level of person like Tohei. And by level, I don't just mean ability in aiki, but I also mean charismatic and teaching.
I'd venture the opinion that there are quite a few people with Tohei Sensei's level of skill (I know Mike Sigman disagrees with me but we'll ignore that for one moment). I'd also suggest that the latter point is in part due to the politics of the split with the aikikai. It has been my experience that those within the aikikai view those outside of it as 'other', I think that perhaps you mean that until someone mainstream (i.e. aikikai) can do the things Tohei Sensei does, and is primarily known for this and the ability to teach it....

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 11-02-2007, 10:06 AM   #210
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I think that perhaps you mean that until someone mainstream (i.e. aikikai) can do the things Tohei Sensei does, and is primarily known for this and the ability to teach it....
I think you're on to something, but I don't know that necessarily it's just from aikikai or some larger org, but I think it will possibly perhaps be someone that has the goods, is recognized as having "the goods" between folks in organizations (or even in outside arts, etc.) and is making an effort, regardless of affiliations/organizations to get this stuff spread as widely as possible . . . and testable/verifiable by objective measures . . .anyhow, just musing . . .

Taikyoku Mind & Body
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Old 11-02-2007, 12:00 PM   #211
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I think that perhaps you mean that until someone mainstream (i.e. aikikai) can do the things Tohei Sensei does, and is primarily known for this and the ability to teach it....
Mike
Actually, no. Mainstream is fine, but not necessarily needed. Certainly, at one point, the Aikikai held a lot of power. That isn't the case now, considering the world wide spread of aikido. I meant someone of Tohei's abilities in regards to ability, charm/charisma, and teaching. Doesn't necessarily have to be Aikikai founded. One thing I think will be needed though is, as Budd mentioned, recognition from larger organizations.

The one thing that Americans have done is to bring together various organizations. We can see that in the Expos, AikiWeb seminars, Aikido-L, etc, etc. We are generations removed from the source of Aikido and this generation coming into power will prove pivotal. Not just for a leading example, but to bridge some gaps in training and across organizations.

I'm not saying that the current generation of Japanese that is in control/power is bad. What I am saying is that Americans are a melting pot of people. We know how to bridge gaps and create communities out of various cultures and backgrounds. I think that will play an important part in the future of aikido.

Mark
 
Old 11-02-2007, 12:13 PM   #212
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
Trust me.
Ah, the gist of this whole thread while singing the Richard Durning "Sidestep song". I bow to you because you are definitely a master at it.
A master at what? It seems to me that you are the one asking me to trust you about your claims regarding your teacher. You claim that he can handle resistance but that he is unable to demonstrate this ability to me on the mat because it would be "too dangerous." That's akin to me claiming that I can kill you with one touch of my finger but that I cannot prove it because it would be too deadly. Nobody would believe that, yet you and many other people in aikido believe similar myths about your own teachers. You extrapolate from their success in throwing people who are taking compliant ukemi in the dojo and assume that your teacher could effect a similar result in a real situation or against a realistically resisting opponent.

I'm not interested in what you think your teacher could do in a "real fight," I'm interested in what he can prove that he can do on the mat. If he can't prove to me on the mat that he can handle resistance, then as far as I'm concerned he can't. I don't care if you accept that or not. You are welcome to believe that your teacher can leap over tall buildings in a single bound if you want. I will still think it's not true unless I've seen it myself and I might even say so here if you were to claim he could in a post on this forum.

Unlike the claims you have made about your teacher that can never be verified, I've made no claims that I am not willing and able to back up on the mat. In fact, I haven't really made that many claims at all if you look, and certainly none of them are as ambitious as the ones you have made. So I think the burden of proof is on you and the others who claim that your teachers are unstoppable, and 200 posts later I don't see anything that leads to me believe that you or anyone else has any ability or willingness to back up those claims.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 11-02-2007 at 12:16 PM.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 02:02 PM   #213
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

GP: I have taken your advice.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 02:38 PM   #214
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
A master at what? It seems to me that you are the one asking me to trust you about your claims regarding your teacher. You claim that he can handle resistance but that he is unable to demonstrate this ability to me on the mat because it would be "too dangerous." That's akin to me claiming that I can kill you with one touch of my finger but that I cannot prove it because it would be too deadly. Nobody would believe that, yet you and many other people in aikido believe similar myths about your own teachers. You extrapolate from their success in throwing people who are taking compliant ukemi in the dojo and assume that your teacher could effect a similar result in a real situation or against a realistically resisting opponent.

I'm not interested in what you think your teacher could do in a "real fight," I'm interested in what he can prove that he can do on the mat. If he can't prove to me on the mat that he can handle resistance, then as far as I'm concerned he can't. I don't care if you accept that or not. You are welcome to believe that your teacher can leap over tall buildings in a single bound if you want. I will still think it's not true unless I've seen it myself and I might even say so here if you were to claim he could in a post on this forum.

Unlike the claims you have made about your teacher that can never be verified, I've made no claims that I am not willing and able to back up on the mat. In fact, I haven't really made that many claims at all if you look, and certainly none of them are as ambitious as the ones you have made. So I think the burden of proof is on you and the others who claim that your teachers are unstoppable, and 200 posts later I don't see anything that leads to me believe that you or anyone else has any ability or willingness to back up those claims.
This is really fun, but a waste of my time and "pearls " to just be casting about.

Again I reinterate Verification G-man! Proof! Proof! Proof! Not just opinions of yourself or your abilities, or your rank.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 03:08 PM   #215
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Question Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Giancarlo,

I know most, if not all of the techniques used in Aikido are based on movements of the Japanese sword. Have you developed any methods for training with the type of resistance you speak of with bokuto? I would be interested in hearing about the application of resistance in ken or jo exercises, namely how and where the resistance would be directed.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
 
Old 11-02-2007, 04:36 PM   #216
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
I know most, if not all of the techniques used in Aikido are based on movements of the Japanese sword. Have you developed any methods for training with the type of resistance you speak of with bokuto? I would be interested in hearing about the application of resistance in ken or jo exercises, namely how and where the resistance would be directed.
There are basically three ways you can train with a sword. The first is solo forms usually done with an iaito or shinken. The second is paired kata usually done with a bokken. The third is freestyle training usually done with a shinai while wearing bogu. In the solo forms you can work on the same body skills that are useful in paired practice, but obviously without the ability to feel what another person is doing. In kata training you can work on feeling how to respond in certain ways to a partner who is providing a set attack. In freestyle training you can work on how to apply what you have learned in the first two exercises against an opponent working under the same rules you are.

For me, sword work is an auxiliary practice. I've developed some of my own basic paired kata work and I also practice and teach a traditional style of iaido. For freestyle training a kendo dojo is a good place to start, although if I were to start seriously teaching all three forms together I probably would not focus on the IKF's method of freestyle training. Still, their organization is an excellent reference point for freestyle sword work because, unlike in aikido, the high-level people have succeeded under a rigorous and competitive freestyle training and testing regimen.

If you cross swords (or shinai, at least) with a kendo 8-dan he should have no problem at all striking you at will while preventing you from striking him. And if you do get off a clean hit on him while preventing him from hitting you, there will be no excuses made after the fact that he couldn't do the "real" kendo on you because he didn't want to hurt you or you weren't worthy or some other BS. Like teachers in many other arts, but apparently not aikido, kendo players can and do back up their claims of superior skill in a freestyle resistance training setting where both people are playing by the same rules.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 09:13 PM   #217
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Oh.....let's take the age thing out of the equation....Go to a Donovan Waite seminar and resist him. I know you are a fairly young guy....so is Donovan....he's also a shihan in USAF. Go ahead...and please let me know when you are going.....I really would like to see the outcome.....my guess is you will find yourself picking your teeth out of your hakama....but that's just my opinion. Heck...maybe you will best him....my money is on Donovan though....Like everyone is saying....man up...put up...or shut up...
 
Old 11-02-2007, 09:47 PM   #218
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Don McConnell wrote: View Post
Oh.....let's take the age thing out of the equation....Go to a Donovan Waite seminar and resist him. I know you are a fairly young guy....so is Donovan....he's also a shihan in USAF. Go ahead...and please let me know when you are going.....I really would like to see the outcome.....my guess is you will find yourself picking your teeth out of your hakama....but that's just my opinion. Heck...maybe you will best him....my money is on Donovan though....Like everyone is saying....man up...put up...or shut up...
I know Donovan and I've practiced with him before. I've touched hands with him himself and I think I have a pretty good idea what he is about and I what I would need to be prepared for if I wanted to try to resist him of my own accord. I don't think he or any of his students have ever claimed that nobody can resist him, so for me there is no reason to put any effort into seeking him out for this purpose. I'm certainly not going to do so just because some guy named Don McConnell said that I should on the internet. If I were you I would stick to make making challenges on behalf of yourself instead of going around extending public invitations on behalf of your organization's shihan without their knowledge or permission. If you want me to try to resist you then come talk to me.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 11-02-2007 at 09:49 PM.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 10:04 PM   #219
Don
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Not sure I know where Lancaster is in Ohio, but I'm sure you know where Charlotte North Carolina is. Come train. I'm no shihan but it will be fun. Don't expect I'll see you anytime soon....suprise me though.
 
Old 11-02-2007, 10:09 PM   #220
Don
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I teach on Wednesdays when I am not on a business trip and sometimes Saturdays.
 
Old 11-03-2007, 12:29 AM   #221
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Anyone have connections with Seagal? I'd pay to see that one. He's younger (my age) than 72 and a shihan.
 
Old 11-03-2007, 10:36 AM   #222
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

What do we call this... The All World Aikido Resistance Extravaganza!!

Come on folks...

William Hazen
 
Old 11-03-2007, 01:22 PM   #223
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Reminds me what happened when my teacher met Kisshomaru Ueshiba at a demo. Ueshiba who was seated on the mats asked people to try and push him over so my teacher went up there and did kubiotoshi (neck twist) on him and took his balance. Consequently he got an earful from Mochizuki Kancho for embarrassing the founder's son. My teacher never bragged about this but just said that maybe Ueshiba was having a bad day or something.
 
Old 11-03-2007, 08:40 PM   #224
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Enough Already!

Folks:

We all know that there are plenty of legitimate people in and out of the Aikido community who are helping us to bring OUR Aikido up to levels where we are confident of our ability to execute properly when necessary.

SOME OF THE THINGS YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM THOSE PEOPLE:

1) How they can stop a Shihan
2) How they were not really giving it their all when people who have trained with them have directly challenged what they talk about what they alleged that they can do.
3) How they will welcome you to try them (even though you might actually have!) at some point in the future.
4) How humble they are and know enough about a person to know how to do what the alleged that they can do if they really wanted to.
5) Ad Nauseum .........

CAN WE ALL STOP FEEDING THE FISHERMAN WHO IS TROLLING FOR SOMEBODY TO BITE HIS BAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we stop biting the bait, maybe the fisherman will return to the dock and talk about the world record fish that he let go......

Marc Abrams
 
Old 11-04-2007, 03:40 AM   #225
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Oh, crap. I guess it's up to me to force Jun's hand on this thread, so here goes:

YOUR OPINION: G-MAN VS. GODZILLA. WHO WINS?

I say G-man, 'cuz he's done resistance training.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
 

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