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Old 10-26-2007, 09:34 AM   #101
David Yap
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Wink Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
I too wish that nikajo does not need pain to work... but I usually see grimace on my uke's face. Therefore I know pain is there. Not sure whether they go down because of pain or because of me taking away their balance... but I would prefer that they went down because I took their balance away rather than the pain.

But then I do regularly jo/bokken suburi, so maybe my wrist are more conditioned than the average JOE.

Boon.
Hi Boon,

At first, I was puzzled by your post. Then I realized that you are from "the other Yoshi camp". My dojo has the good fortune to invite Joe Thambu sensei for a private seminar. Thambu sensei explained and demonstrated to us that locks are not confined to just twisting and inflicting pain to the joints. Most can practise that by squeezing oranges and lemons. Locks are just locks on the joints of the arm to connect back to the uke's center. His maai and timing was very precise that upon a slight resistant he would attack on the centerline extending/directing the lock all the way from any point of the arm (depending on the ??kajo) through our centers down to our knees - that was what I felt as an uke. He demonstrated the various locks on us, individually sending us down on mats and none of us felt the slightest pain and left us puzzled as to how we got there, locked and not able to get up. Without letting too much of his teachings out, I let you know that he used a bokken and jo to demonstrate the underlying principles. Hints: Do you twist (as in bend) a bokken? No. What do you do with a bokken? You cut or you thrust. One more point, how you hold a bokken also makes a difference.

Most important, is the set up. No set up - no execution. Poor set up, poor execution. You must get the "holding of the bokken in your hands" feel first before you execute the technique.

He sort of hinted that all these stuff are shown in Gozo Shioda's books.

Bro, wish I have started in Yoshinkan years ago. Wish I have met Thambo sensei then too

Regards

David Y

PS. Still enjoying judo?

Last edited by David Yap : 10-26-2007 at 09:40 AM.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 10:27 AM   #102
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Don McConnell wrote: View Post
Further it was Tamura, the instructor, who encouraged resistance and not the other way around where the uke who the instructor choses decicdes on their own to experiment in front of the seminar.
Well in the case of Saotome, from the other thread, I initially grabbed him ryotetori with my standard semi-compliant grab. I wasn't going to just give away everything like most people do, but I wasn't going to try to totally shut him down either. If he moved reasonably well, I would have went. Although many people in aikido, particularly below the higher-level yudansha (and even some of them) have a lot of trouble with this level of resistance, I don't think that he would have. It's also something I can teach students to overcome fairly quickly (given a fixed attack repeated several times, not spontaneously against a new attack each time -- that would be a major accomplishment to teach in one class).

Instead of just throwing me, though, he looked down at my hands and then told me to "grab strong." In my book, if you are going to ask for a stronger grab before you even know what I'm already giving you, then you are asking me to try to lock you down, especially if you are this shihan who is touted as unstoppable. Sure I'm younger and stronger than him but he also has some 40 years of practice on me and I'm not the one whose students are claiming that nobody can resist him, so I don't think it's an entirely unfair situation. I also gradually let off on the level of resistance so that he could eventually throw me and save face in front of those who were watching.

In the case of Kato, it was kokyu-dosa, which is often a technique done against some resistance, and I really wasn't giving that much, nowhere near as much as I gave Saotome. If the clip comes out you will see. And neither of them were in front of the entire seminar but just the few people who had chosen to stop their own practice to watch what happening. I don't think I was unfair with either of them, and when Kato had trouble I lowered my level of resistance so that he could throw me, which he did several times after that.

I think a lot of people who don't train with resistance are making a lot of assumptions about what I did based on their own (in)experience, and then drawing conclusions from that, and I suspect this will continue to happen. Perhaps it is unavoidable when you talk about something that the majority of people in aikido do not understand but think they do. There's a lot that I could say about this subject that could help people understand it better, but if you look at my posts where I have made an effort to do that, those posts don't ever seem to get any responses. Instead, when I tell someone who thinks his teachers trains with resistance that I don't agree with that (and then when challenged that they don't think I could stop him, provide evidence that I already have), I get tons of replies from people who don't understand what I'm doing telling me that I'm wrong and that I don't know what I'm talking about. I guess that's just a fact of life on the Internet, though.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-26-2007 at 10:31 AM.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 10:38 AM   #103
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Giancarlo, you have absolutely so much to learn, I wouldn't even know where to begin with you!

Avery Jenkins
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:38 AM   #104
Will Prusner
 
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Dead Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hey O-Giancarlo,

I think I figured it out! You must not be doing Ai-Ki-Do! See, Aikido involves blending (it's even part of it's name), not resisting. So what you are doing is a brand new style you invented. Congratulations! And sense it is so effective at neutralizing Aikido technique, you might even consider naming it something cool, like, may I suggest "Anti-Ki-Do". It will prove to be incredibly valuable as a tool to protect oneself from the unprovoked attacks of all those hot-headed Aikido Shihan! I for one acknowledge and thank you for your contribution to the human race!

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
 
Old 10-26-2007, 11:39 AM   #105
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Or he could be in Bizarro-world
 
Old 10-26-2007, 11:50 AM   #106
akiy
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hi folks,

Let's all please stay away from personal attacks and stay with discussing the issues. Thank you.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 10-26-2007, 11:56 AM   #107
Amir Krause
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yet so many people on this forum will have no problem defending their position by telling you to go to a seminar or class of X shihan and 'try that on them'

But if you do, then you get this side of the argument.
Was it the Shihan who invited others to test him? Sorry, but may your students invite others to fight you without your permission?

Amd most important. would the fight start without you being told? While you thought you are teaching?

As for my point of origin:

My Sensei has had to face this type of behavior. He used to tell us that in his youth, he was stupid and fealt he has to win, which has almost injured one testing student, and on another situation, made the teacher overstretc while winning over a much larger and stronger student, who suddenly made it a test and did not know how to safely take the fal of the most suited technique, forcing my teacher to find a less suitable solution and ache for days later.
He told us this was stupid of him, and he should have simply told that student they are now doing something else.

As I wrote in an earlier message, I have seen a Shihan asked about the effectivness of a technique, and he consented to demonstrate how to reslove that issue. So I am not against the idea of putting a Shihan to the test. Though the examiner should consider age, health and strength when looking at the results.

I am skeptic and critical by nature, and ask 20 question and more about the techniques once I grasp the basics. But I believe in honoring the teacher I chose to learn from. If you can not respect him, do not come to his seminar \ class

Amir
 
Old 10-26-2007, 12:02 PM   #108
Amir Krause
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Thumbs up Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
The optimal time for resistance training is from a position of deep trust. Both agreeing on the parameters of what you are exploring, both learning, and no ego involved......sounds like a great time.
(very revealing too, I would wager)
Lan
I fully agree, and this is the reason those Shihans would most likely give in to any ressitence.

Amir
 
Old 10-26-2007, 12:10 PM   #109
Amir Krause
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Point is that you can't argue that nobody can stop these guys and that the ukemi for them is real while simultaneously arguing that a seminar is not the right place to test them and they need fake ukemi because it's a teaching situation. It's one or the other. The people who questioned my claims that I find these shihan to rely too much on cooperative training for my taste, backed up by having tried to stop them myself and been successful, took the first option and challenged me to provide evidence that I did actually stop these teachers, which I did. If you want to take the second option that's an entirely different debate and one which has been done before (see the first thread I linked to above).
You have one problem here, I am not those other you are quating. further, I disagree with them on some points. I know nobody is perfect, not even a Shihan, they are people too, have bad days, health problems, old age etc. So they too do not perform all techniques at the same level.
Anyone who thinks otherwise, is simply delusional.

However, I also make a significant distinction betwee countering a technique when the Shihan knows this is your intention and resisting it when the Shihan is not aware of your intentions.
As I tried to explain, the latter does not count. Specificly not when the Shihan is teaching in a seminar.

Amir
 
Old 10-26-2007, 01:10 PM   #110
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I think a lot of people who don't train with resistance are making a lot of assumptions about what I did based on their own (in)experience, and then drawing conclusions from that, and I suspect this will continue to happen. Perhaps it is unavoidable when you talk about something that the majority of people in aikido do not understand but think they do. There's a lot that I could say about this subject that could help people understand it better, but if you look at my posts where I have made an effort to do that, those posts don't ever seem to get any responses.
The internet is a convenient tool for all kinds of claims. So, if you really are on to something that no one else has apparently figured out, how about setting up a thread and putting forth your theories. You say you have a lot to say about the topic so lets see where the topic goes. No claims, no personal attacks, no BS. Just teach or explain to us what you are doing so we can test it out as well. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 01:23 PM   #111
odudog
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

".....he looked down at my hands and then told me to "grab strong." In my book, if you are going to ask for a stronger grab before you even know what I'm already giving you, then you are asking me to try to lock you down, especially if you are this shihan who is touted as unstoppable...."

This is the wrong assumption. Grabbing stronger means to give a firm grip with your hands. It says nothing about making the rest of your arms and body stiff. You can feel the connection much better with a really firm grab and uke moves the way the technique intented him/her to move. I ask people to grab me hard all the time so that I can feel the connection better, but I am very light and weak and am not going to move anybody that truely locks down on me. If I grab you, you will feel a very good grip but you will notice that you can still move my entire arm around with ease. My job is to make sure that I don't lose connection during the technique, not to stop you from doing the technique.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 01:35 PM   #112
DonMagee
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
".....he looked down at my hands and then told me to "grab strong." In my book, if you are going to ask for a stronger grab before you even know what I'm already giving you, then you are asking me to try to lock you down, especially if you are this shihan who is touted as unstoppable...."

This is the wrong assumption. Grabbing stronger means to give a firm grip with your hands. It says nothing about making the rest of your arms and body stiff. You can feel the connection much better with a really firm grab and uke moves the way the technique intented him/her to move. I ask people to grab me hard all the time so that I can feel the connection better, but I am very light and weak and am not going to move anybody that truely locks down on me. If I grab you, you will feel a very good grip but you will notice that you can still move my entire arm around with ease. My job is to make sure that I don't lose connection during the technique, not to stop you from doing the technique.
Wouldn't it better then to say "please hold me tight" ?

I mean, a grab is much more then just wrapping fingers around a wrist.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 10-26-2007, 01:35 PM   #113
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
The internet is a convenient tool for all kinds of claims. So, if you really are on to something that no one else has apparently figured out, how about setting up a thread and putting forth your theories. You say you have a lot to say about the topic so lets see where the topic goes. No claims, no personal attacks, no BS. Just teach or explain to us what you are doing so we can test it out as well. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
I never claimed that nobody else has figured this, just that most people in aikido haven't figured it out. I also don't have much interest in trying to teach via the internet. It's a good medium for a lot of things but not for that. I will be happy to discuss the issue if people can do so reasonably (which is questionable, given this and other threads) but if someone wants me to show them how to do something that will have to be done in person.

Just look at the post below yours and you will understand what I mean. I'm not going to try to explain to someone like that what's wrong with his assumptions about what I am doing relative to what he is doing over the internet. The only way to do it would be for him to grab me and then me to grab him. In 30 seconds it would be very clear. I could spend three or fours hours trying to explain it in words and he probably still wouldn't understand. That's just the way it is.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 09:14 PM   #114
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
I have trained with instructors with 20+ years training who have not gone beyond a level where they have realized that pain is not the sole factor or setup for a prefect technique.
David Y
Just quoting the above as it is an important point that most seem to have missed.

 
Old 10-27-2007, 07:48 AM   #115
wxyzabc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

GDipierro

From what you have written about your approach to aikido and your interactions with various shihans it would appear you have little understanding of aiki....

This is far more important than being able to lock someone who is practising a "technique". That is an easy thing for anyone with any control of centre to do...it is certainly no claim to greatness or a reflection of the Shihans true ability in "aikido"

Perhaps you need to rethink....
 
Old 10-27-2007, 09:01 AM   #116
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Lee Price wrote: View Post
From what you have written about your approach to aikido and your interactions with various shihans it would appear you have little understanding of aiki....

This is far more important than being able to lock someone who is practising a "technique". That is an easy thing for anyone with any control of centre to do...it is certainly no claim to greatness or a reflection of the Shihans true ability in "aikido"
Well since you are so much more knowledgeable than me about aiki, then why don't you explain to us all what it is? Wouldn't that be better than just sniping about how little other people know without posting anything substantive of your own? After all, just about any anonymous person can go around saying "from your posts it appears you know nothing...", etc without demonstrating that they themselves actually have any knowledge upon which to make such a judgment. That's very easy to do.

Since you think you are so much more knowledgeable than me, prove it. Show us what you know.
 
Old 10-27-2007, 09:16 AM   #117
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Well since you are so much more knowledgeable than me about aiki, then why don't you explain to us all what it is? Wouldn't that be better than just sniping about how little other people know without posting anything substantive of your own? After all, just about any anonymous person can go around saying "from your posts it appears you know nothing...", etc without demonstrating that they themselves actually have any knowledge upon which to make such a judgment. That's very easy to do.

Since you think you are so much more knowledgeable than me, prove it. Show us what you know.
Might wanna go easy there, Giancarlo. Calling out people that you haven't seen can go badly. Heck, calling out people that you have seen can go badly.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
 
Old 10-27-2007, 09:25 AM   #118
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Might wanna go easy there, Giancarlo. Calling out people that you haven't seen can go badly. Heck, calling out people that you have seen can go badly.
I'm not the one who is joining a thread with a lot of information without having posting anything myself and then telling one of the main posters that he has very little understanding of what he is discussing. If you want to behave like that, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that you actually know what you are talking about. Until then, you are just an anonymous troll sniping at the heels of someone who has actually made an effort to post something substantial.

By the way, I don't believe that you have demonstrated that you know anything about this subject either. Why don't you also share some of your surely wide-ranging knowledge with us? If you know as much as you seem to think you do then why not enlighten us? Or are you too one of those people who just likes to snipe about how little other people know without adding anything of substance yourself?
 
Old 10-27-2007, 09:35 AM   #119
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I'm not the one who is joining a thread with a lot of information without having posting anything myself and then telling one of the main posters that he has very little understanding of what he is discussing. If you want to behave like that, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that you actually know what you are talking about. Until then, you are just an anonymous troll sniping at the heels of someone who has actually made an effort to post something substantial.

By the way, I don't believe that you have demonstrated that you know anything about this subject either. Why don't you also share some of your surely wide-ranging knowledge with us? If you know as much as you seem to think you do then why not enlighten us? Or are you too one of those people who just likes to snipe about how little other people know without adding anything of substance yourself?
Oh, Giancarlo, I'm not some big-name sensei with lots of knowledge to impart or anything like that, I mostly read this forum to get information, rather than impart it. I've just seen invitations like yours go very wrong. Just consider it a friendly hand on the shoulder, that's all.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
 
Old 10-27-2007, 11:30 AM   #120
Aikibu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I'm not the one who is joining a thread with a lot of information without having posting anything myself and then telling one of the main posters that he has very little understanding of what he is discussing. If you want to behave like that, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that you actually know what you are talking about. Until then, you are just an anonymous troll sniping at the heels of someone who has actually made an effort to post something substantial.

By the way, I don't believe that you have demonstrated that you know anything about this subject either. Why don't you also share some of your surely wide-ranging knowledge with us? If you know as much as you seem to think you do then why not enlighten us? Or are you too one of those people who just likes to snipe about how little other people know without adding anything of substance yourself?
Dude...You really need to check yourself....I don't see anything that you've posted as being substancial either... Just endless justification for your poor behaviour at a seminar...

Substance is in the eye of the reader and I for one am still waiting to be impressed....LOL

I will tell you one thing however... Anyone walks into our Dojo with your attitude and lack of respect is more than likely going to be ignored and then asked to leave...

You seriously need to rethink your "revolutionary" approach to resistance training in Aikido.

Having Shodan disease is a natural progression in Aikido or any other Martial Art The challange is to get past it and return to beginners mind...

Whne Nishio Shihan gave me my Shodan back in 98 He smiled at me and said "All having a black belt means is that you're a good student. It is up to you to live up to that responsibility."

The Dojo Bully in me vanished at that exact moment.

Bowing down to you Giancarlo,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-27-2007 at 11:33 AM.
 
Old 10-27-2007, 11:31 AM   #121
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Oh, Giancarlo, I'm not some big-name sensei with lots of knowledge to impart or anything like that, I mostly read this forum to get information, rather than impart it. I've just seen invitations like yours go very wrong. Just consider it a friendly hand on the shoulder, that's all.
That's not the impression I got from one of your other posts in this thread. And I'm not the one joining a thread that someone has spent a lot of time contributing to just to nonchalantly state that this person doesn't have any understanding of what he is talking about. Even if I felt that way (which I often do on this forum), if someone has put that much time into posting, I'll usually just let the thread stand on its own. Other readers can decide for themselves whether they think that person knows anything or not.

If I do want to challenge someone who has made an effort to contribute something, then I focus on the specific part that I do not agree with and provide the reasoning behind why I disagree with that. Then it is possible to have a productive discussion. But just telling someone that you have read their posts and come to the conclusion that you don't think they know what they are talking about is useless. It serves no purpose other than to try to make yourself feel better by putting someone else down.

If you really know what you are talking about, then why not explain why you are right and I am wrong? If you are not able to do that then I suggest it would be better to keep your negative comments to yourself.
 
Old 10-27-2007, 11:56 AM   #122
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
That's not the impression I got from one of your other posts in this thread. And I'm not the one joining a thread that someone has spent a lot of time contributing to just to nonchalantly state that this person doesn't have any understanding of what he is talking about. Even if I felt that way (which I often do on this forum), if someone has put that much time into posting, I'll usually just let the thread stand on its own. Other readers can decide for themselves whether they think that person knows anything or not.

If I do want to challenge someone who has made an effort to contribute something, then I focus on the specific part that I do not agree with and provide the reasoning behind why I disagree with that. Then it is possible to have a productive discussion. But just telling someone that you have read their posts and come to the conclusion that you don't think they know what they are talking about is useless. It serves no purpose other than to try to make yourself feel better by putting someone else down.

If you really know what you are talking about, then why not explain why you are right and I am wrong? If you are not able to do that then I suggest it would be better to keep your negative comments to yourself.
Easy there, G-man! You're dissin' a fellow Ohioan, born and raised in Dayton. But you are right to the extent that I don't really have a dog in this fight, and perhaps this is a bit of a thread hijack, but when people start winging out the "Come on over here and prove it" rhetoric, my ears start to perk up.

I remember pulling that stunt on a bouncer at a bar in Virginia who was making insulting comments about, of all things, Ohio. So I went into "yeah, prove it" mode. Next thing you know, I was bouncing down a flight of steps head first. The really smart thing I did was to run back up the stairs so he could do it again.

'Course, this was long before I had any training in Aikido.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
 
Old 10-27-2007, 01:37 PM   #123
Marc Abrams
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

People:

Step back and look at the dynamics taking place. Some one is baiting the hook and yanking on the line when he gets a response. I think that the easiest/aiki way of addressing this dynamic is to simply ignore the hook. When people stop biting on his bait, he will eventually stop fishing.

No sense of Aiki from the fisherman is more than an understatement.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 10-27-2007, 03:27 PM   #124
Walter Martindale
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hmm.
Lots of testosterone...
Step back, breathe, smile, move on. Cross the street to avoid the person who looks like trouble...
W
 
Old 10-27-2007, 04:33 PM   #125
wxyzabc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hya Gianni

I think that you have some good points...but perhaps you are really only questioning the integrity of how people are practising aikido at a basic level when everything is static and you are given the opportunity to actually "lay hands" on Tori?. I could be wrong but what little information you have provided seems that you are talking mainly about static starts..

Blocking here is ok but where is the energy? if there is no energy there is no aikido. All you are left with is an empty framework of techniques made more difficult to execute. Even so I would assume that if you block in a certain manner that prevents the use of one technique, most advanced practioners could...if they cared too... easily switch techniques or move your centre enough to make a throw possible even from static....even if you yourself are giving no ki.

In seminars etc most shihan are usually only demonstrating techniques at the level of most of the attendees..this is my point...not demonstrating true aikido where waza is instantaneously selected to match the current energies.

In your personal dojo/training your approach has real value...helping you progress from shodan level aikido..but in someones seminar perhaps it doesnt. When you travel to see a shihan it should be with the intention to share and learn from them...not with the intention to prove your latest theory or feed your ego.

Your posts have often left me with the feeling..perhaps unintentionally, that on some level you believe are superior to these shihan, and that they need to select compliant ukes to make their akido work. However from my experience shihan generally select the most suitable person to demonstrate the technique in question (or prevent injury when teaching basic techniques)...often not the underlying principles.

Generally though.while an interesting thread you are providing no real insights into how we might improve our training. Perhaps you should post us some video clips where we can see what you are doing.. and therefore provide the means to have a constructive discussion.

I sincerely hope you do not take my most post in the wrong light....it is just another point of view..merely questioning what you yourself are questioning.

Kindest regards

Lee
 

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