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Old 10-20-2007, 11:39 PM   #1
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:26 AM   #2
Aikibu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.
Nope... Automatic weapons are more effective than MMA. Come to think of it Air Support and Naval Gunfire are not that bad...Then there's tactical nukes

This is where this line of thinking leads if all it's about is "effectiveness"... Why then should Joe Citizen invest his time and practice anything outside of a combat pistol range???

Perhaps the Martial Arts are about more than if "my Chop Sockey is better than your Chop Sockey."

O'Sensei, Kano, and Funakoshi among others seemed to think so...If all I wanted to do is destroy every opponent I face "on the street" a CCW and a few hours at the range every week would suit me just fine...Hell I walked the earth with an M60 Machine Gun at one time....

What happen if both of us start shooting though..back to the old my combat pistol course is more effective than yours arguement I guess.

William Hazen
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Old 10-21-2007, 01:06 AM   #3
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Nope... Automatic weapons are more effective than MMA. Come to think of it Air Support and Naval Gunfire are not that bad...Then there's tactical nukes

This is where this line of thinking leads if all it's about is "effectiveness"... Why then should Joe Citizen invest his time and practice anything outside of a combat pistol range???
You're right. And then there are tsunamis...and asteroids hitting the earth...and finally the universe vaporizing itself into nothing. Why bother even training MA?? We're all just dead. F'ing dead.

Sorry, but what you gave is an old reply thrown around for various reason. People don't give a crap about guns and bombs. No one simply cares. Bring your theory into an MMA gym: No one will care.

People just say it because they have no idea what else to say. Why bother resisting some shihan's technique in the first place? Just stab him...or pull out your 9mm and put a couple of caps in him.

Don't even bother learning anything ever...you'll only get shot, stabbed, or shelled by heavy artillery.

Wanna resist and topple a 130lb, 70 year old man? Great...remember to post about it on a forum later so people can point out the obscurity in that.

I'd also like to provide a thanks for taking the time to answer for Giancarlo. I am sure he appreciates it.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 10-21-2007 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:55 PM   #4
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Giancarlo DiPierro: No matter what theories you will come up with, everything will always go back to one thing: MMA.
How do you mean?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:16 PM   #5
Aikibu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
You're right. And then there are tsunamis...and asteroids hitting the earth...and finally the universe vaporizing itself into nothing. Why bother even training MA?? We're all just dead. F'ing dead.

Sorry, but what you gave is an old reply thrown around for various reason. People don't give a crap about guns and bombs. No one simply cares. Bring your theory into an MMA gym: No one will care.

People just say it because they have no idea what else to say. Why bother resisting some shihan's technique in the first place? Just stab him...or pull out your 9mm and put a couple of caps in him.

Don't even bother learning anything ever...you'll only get shot, stabbed, or shelled by heavy artillery.

Wanna resist and topple a 130lb, 70 year old man? Great...remember to post about it on a forum later so people can point out the obscurity in that.

I'd also like to provide a thanks for taking the time to answer for Giancarlo. I am sure he appreciates it.
Thank you more making my point for me.The logic of conflict and escalation is not a reason for practice MMA or Aikido.So why do you continue to tout it using MMA???


Also as Budd mentioned we have our fun with some MMA guy a while back...like you suggested... No one cared when he walked into the Aiki-Expo with his claims of MMA mastery and Aikido's "in-effectiveness".... He was givin the opportunity to demonstrate his MMA's "superiority" with a Sensei who was about 15 years older than him.

he lasted less than 5 minutes.

There were top Aiki Shihan, Judoka, Koryu, and Systema Teachers in an atmosphere of respect and learning. The only one with an attitude was Mister MMA.

So it works both ways...

Some of the MMA proponents here smack of zealotry and I have seen this before... Everytime something new comes out. Folks love to pick on Aikido and have been doing it for decades.Perhaps because it takes more courage to love and connect with ones opponents than it does to destroy them.Beating on someone is the easy way out... My point is if destruction is your goal buy a gun or join the military where you get to play with the big toys... Somehow despite most young men's infatuation with with winning and destruction... Aikido thrives and continues to experiment and grow. I will practice it until the end of my days...

Just the way O'Sensei and Nishio Shihan would have wished it for me and the millions of others who know the difference.

MMA has it's place, My respect, and I love it... But until it develops a solid ethical and spiritual structure like every other sport and/or physical endevor.... It is a house of cards and risks falling at the whim of the crowd.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-21-2007 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:47 PM   #6
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
he lasted less than 5 minutes.
Video please?
Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:29 PM   #7
Aikibu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Video please?
Hehe, come on, don't say you didn't see that coming.
Nope no Video however it was witnessed by George Ledyard, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Stan Pranin, Julio Turibo, and a host of other distingushed Shihan and Sensei's.

Guess you'll just have to take our word for it.

William Hazen

Ohh and one of the folks I mentioned was Mister MMA's humble Uke...

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-21-2007 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:21 PM   #8
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Nope no Video however it was witnessed by George Ledyard, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Stan Pranin, Julio Turibo, and a host of other distingushed Shihan and Sensei's.

Guess you'll just have to take our word for it.

William Hazen

Ohh and one of the folks I mentioned was Mister MMA's humble Uke...
I remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:58 PM   #9
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.
To be fair, the guy we are talking about was pretty much delusional. His skill level in Aikido wasn't even 5th kyu, his lack of any conditioning indicated that he had never done any serious mixed martial arts training, he was unable to do the most basic covering moves against a jab, and had less than no idea how to shoot for someones legs. It would be very inaccurate to draw any conclusions whatever about Aikido or Mixed Martial Arts from this fellows performance at the Expo. It turned out later that he wasn't even a yudansha in anything.

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Old 10-22-2007, 12:51 AM   #10
Aikibu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
To be fair, the guy we are talking about was pretty much delusional. His skill level in Aikido wasn't even 5th kyu, his lack of any conditioning indicated that he had never done any serious mixed martial arts training, he was unable to do the most basic covering moves against a jab, and had less than no idea how to shoot for someones legs. It would be very inaccurate to draw any conclusions whatever about Aikido or Mixed Martial Arts from this fellows performance at the Expo. It turned out later that he wasn't even a yudansha in anything.
I disagree with you Sensei Ledyard...You are being more than fair LOL....

William Hazen
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Old 10-22-2007, 05:38 AM   #11
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

It's been my experience that lots of people that run their mouths are delusional about their skill levels. I also have met a few exceptions, but it usually tends to be the former rather than the latter.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:00 AM   #12
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

I am not sure what MMA and the Expo have to do with each other, but there was some great cross training there.

So, here it comes again. LOL

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:57 AM   #13
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
It's been my experience that lots of people that run their mouths are delusional about their skill levels. I also have met a few exceptions, but it usually tends to be the former rather than the latter.
Yup. That's pretty much it...regardless or what style/art they claim to train in.
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:29 AM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I remember speaking to Sensei Ledyard a bit about this after the event. Wasn't some of MT's "session" documented in the Aiki Expo DVD for that year? From how it sounded I'm sure there are those who have this on personal video, but I'm not sure if it will be publicly available.
Hi Larry,
There are a small number of folks who have that clip. It might be that at some party some day, with sufficient liquid inducement, someone might pull out one of the copies... But it's pretty pathetic stuff... you feel a bit embarrassed to be laughing.
- George

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Old 10-22-2007, 09:38 AM   #15
Marc Abrams
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

As one of the "participants" in "The Folly at the Expo", I would like to chime in on George's comments.

That clown at the Expo had nothing to contribute to the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Aikido, or anything having to do with Aikido against MMA. The clown was a clear example of an individual with significant psychological issues (my opinion) who was lucky to have survived his encounters with consensual reality.

The video clips are not really worth watching, even inebriated, unless you MUST see what not to do as a martial artist.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:12 AM   #16
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Sounds like a train wreck to me. And you know how humans are with train wrecks! Rubber-neckers, all of you!
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:20 AM   #17
Aikibu
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
As one of the "participants" in "The Folly at the Expo", I would like to chime in on George's comments.

That clown at the Expo had nothing to contribute to the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Aikido, or anything having to do with Aikido against MMA. The clown was a clear example of an individual with significant psychological issues (my opinion) who was lucky to have survived his encounters with consensual reality.

The video clips are not really worth watching, even inebriated, unless you MUST see what not to do as a martial artist.

Marc Abrams
great post Marc....My point in bringing this up is simple...Those making claims about a Martial Arts "effectiveness" or thier Arts superiority "on the internets" sooner or later will have a chance to demonstrate exactly what they mean...With all the posts around here that attack Aikido... This experiance for me was a great reminder that the Aikido community is a viberant and constantly changing collective of dedicated Martial Artists who take thier practice very seriously and, is nothing like some of the posters here have portrayed...

My Point....It's easy to Talk the Talk. Walking the Walk takes dedication, focus, hard practice, and a lifetime to accomplish....

My experiance of the Expo is that it was filled folks who love what they do, and are committed to helping others improve thier lives through serious practice. I was honored to be among them and learn from them.

William Hazen
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:19 AM   #18
Marc Abrams
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

William:

My opinion, based upon my experiences, is that much of this gum-flapping is nothing more than a juvenile, prepubescent wiener contest. Much of it is testosterone-driven, drivel, that typically thrives more in other types of martial arts than Aikido. I do not know, or know of Giancarlo, but his comments fit neatly within that category. I agree with your assessment of the Expo, in that almost all of the people were sincere martial artist, who strove to share their knowledge bases, trained hard, and looked to expand and improve on where they were.

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?" Sincere martial artists (at least the ones that I know) all strive to improve upon what they do, based upon what they are learning, and who they are learning from. Those people do not have to brag about stopping instructors, or being better than other people. Frankly, a person that is stuck in that paradigm should have a difficult time executing Aikido. You cannot blend and harmonize if you are so stuck on how good you are. In the end, who really gives a damn who we are better than, and which people are better than us. I am simply interested in maintaining a "beginner's mind" and learn from people who I believe I have a lot to learn from. At the same time, I take my responsibility of teaching very seriously, and try and give to my students, that which I think that I know. I make a sincere effort to do so, in a manner that can effectively and efficiently convey the information.

I think that we would all be better off if we simply try and ignore the "wiener contests" and focus in on our sincerely learning, while sharing what we learn with those around us. Many of us privately cross-train, or share ideas with martial artists from other styles. We do not have to advertise what we do, or how effectively we do it. If we have a lot to talk about in terms or these areas, without having to engage in fruitless, egotistical discussions.

Train Hard, Stay Well

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:26 AM   #19
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Larry,
There are a small number of folks who have that clip. It might be that at some party some day, with sufficient liquid inducement, someone might pull out one of the copies... But it's pretty pathetic stuff... you feel a bit embarrassed to be laughing.
- George
Hi George,

I remember getting the lowdown from those in attendance directly after that Expo. It sounded quite painful and sad so I have no need to see the video. Roman was asking about video (else it "never happened") hence my post.

Happy Training.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:29 AM   #20
Aikibu
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
William:

My opinion, based upon my experiences, is that much of this gum-flapping is nothing more than a juvenile, prepubescent wiener contest. Much of it is testosterone-driven, drivel, that typically thrives more in other types of martial arts than Aikido. I do not know, or know of Giancarlo, but his comments fit neatly within that category. I agree with your assessment of the Expo, in that almost all of the people were sincere martial artist, who strove to share their knowledge bases, trained hard, and looked to expand and improve on where they were.

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?" Sincere martial artists (at least the ones that I know) all strive to improve upon what they do, based upon what they are learning, and who they are learning from. Those people do not have to brag about stopping instructors, or being better than other people. Frankly, a person that is stuck in that paradigm should have a difficult time executing Aikido. You cannot blend and harmonize if you are so stuck on how good you are. In the end, who really gives a damn who we are better than, and which people are better than us. I am simply interested in maintaining a "beginner's mind" and learn from people who I believe I have a lot to learn from. At the same time, I take my responsibility of teaching very seriously, and try and give to my students, that which I think that I know. I make a sincere effort to do so, in a manner that can effectively and efficiently convey the information.

I think that we would all be better off if we simply try and ignore the "wiener contests" and focus in on our sincerely learning, while sharing what we learn with those around us. Many of us privately cross-train, or share ideas with martial artists from other styles. We do not have to advertise what we do, or how effectively we do it. If we have a lot to talk about in terms or these areas, without having to engage in fruitless, egotistical discussions.

Train Hard, Stay Well

Marc Abrams
Amen Marc....In the future I will try not to let my passion for Budo get the best of me here. Being a Sober Irishman any excuse to get me fired up is the bane of my exsistance. LOL Time to chill and get back to doing what I love best "taking action" on my love for Aikido.

See you on the mat someday.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-22-2007 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:46 AM   #21
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Did someone say, wiener roast?

Just kidding.
Well said Marc, thanks!
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:54 AM   #22
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

William:

Hope your school is safe with the fires going on in your area.

Look forward to an opportunity to train with you one day (hopefully soon!).

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:55 AM   #23
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
William:

I think that it was Ikeda Sensei who turned around the question, "Is Aikido effective?" to "Is your Aikido effective?"
I'm so glad you posted this - it puts into words what I've been thinking for a long time whenever these conversations come up regardless of style.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:00 PM   #24
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

I find it humorous that this MMA v. Aikido debate rages on. It makes some sense to me that proponents of Aikido would feel some desire to defend their chosen art (although I personally do not. I think the Aikido tradition can fend for itself,just as it was long before I came along). But what I find truly funny is this: If you love MMA so much, wouldnt you want to spend your time reading all of the exciting stuff that's being posted on the MMA web forums that might help you in your MMA technique? Interesting, insightful stuff, that's applicable to the style you adore so much? But you keep comin back to the AikiWeb, you love it, you just can't stay away!!! Actions speak louder words, and the fact that the MMA guys keep posting is just proof that there is something very worthwhile (and attractive) about aikido.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:16 PM   #25
Aikibu
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Re: MMA and Aiki Expo

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
William:

Hope your school is safe with the fires going on in your area.

Look forward to an opportunity to train with you one day (hopefully soon!).

Marc Abrams
Thanks Marc and God Bless You,

The fire is 4 miles south at present. I lived in Malibu since 84 and having been through fires, mudslides, flooding, and earthquakes All I can say is Nature is the ultimate Sensei.

William Hazen
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