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Old 10-16-2007, 06:19 PM   #1
andychamp
Dojo: Aiki-Kia Melbourne
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What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Should you pre-empt, preform the technique before the strike happens?

The Story starts with ikkyo, my nage came in to preform the technique but was left a fool when there was no attack. Standing there with his arms in the air he then to precede in telling me off saying that he is trying to provoke a reaction.

My background comes from tomiki and I have been taught to expect the unexpected whether I’m nage or uke. I now training in Aikikai, I’ve carried some traits with me, do you think all technique starts with pre-empting or is that only for that advance cut down moves??
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Old 10-16-2007, 07:16 PM   #2
L. Camejo
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Andrew Beauchamp wrote: View Post
Should you pre-empt, preform the technique before the strike happens?
It depends on the technique. In the case of your Ikkyo situation I'd say no, since Uke's striking arm is what assists the form for the Ikkyo itself. For something like Shomen Ate on the other hand, well pre-emptive is good. If your partner wanted a reaction to get off an Ikkyo he should have thrown a sharp backfist right between your eyes to get your arm up imho.
Quote:
Andrew Beauchamp wrote: View Post
My background comes from tomiki and I have been taught to expect the unexpected whether I'm nage or uke. I now training in Aikikai, I've carried some traits with me...
From my own Aikikai experiences, being Shodokan/Tomiki myself, I've found that many of my "traits" were somewhat disconcerting to my Aikikai pals (e.g. not adopting hanmi before striking or responding to waza). In the end I adapted somewhat so that I could learn what was being taught, however the things that appeared totally counter productive to me could not be resolved against my previous Shodokan training so those traits stuck regardless. Of course I only did Aikikai for a few months, I sense your case may be a bit more long term.

In the end, play nice.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:13 PM   #3
raul rodrigo
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Andrew Beauchamp wrote: View Post
Should you pre-empt, preform the technique before the strike happens?

The Story starts with ikkyo, my nage came in to preform the technique but was left a fool when there was no attack. Standing there with his arms in the air he then to precede in telling me off saying that he is trying to provoke a reaction.
If he was trying to provoke a reaction, then he should have hit you in the face, or tried to, in order to make you raise your arm. If you don't raise your arm to protect your face, then its your fault. The preemptive strike to provoke the uke to raise his hand is how Morihei used to teach ikkyo,
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Old 10-16-2007, 10:14 PM   #4
Mark Uttech
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Alan Watts, the philosopher, once answered the chicken vs egg question by saying: "The chicken is the egg". I think aikido works the same way.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:51 AM   #5
andychamp
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Thank you for your replies. I agree with of them.

To add to what Mark Uttech wrote:

Quote:
Alan Watts, the philosopher, once answered the chicken vs egg question by saying: "The chicken is the egg". I think aikido works the same way.
Some one told me once -

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Answer: The thought... - anonymous
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:08 AM   #6
Amir Krause
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It is a question of level and execise purpose.

In some cases (of th eabove combination) he is right, and you should have been helpful.
In other cases, he is a fool, and should have fllowed immidiatly into striking you.
In other cases, he simply failed in provoking you to act, which should eb considered just like any other technical mistake in the learning practice.

Amir
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:03 AM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Shows you that if you wait, some one else will pre-empt your response.

IMHO, I agree with Watts.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:59 AM   #8
DonMagee
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Andrew Beauchamp wrote: View Post
Standing there with his arms in the air he then to precede in telling me off saying that he is trying to provoke a reaction.
I would of told him "Well, I guess you need to work on that then."

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:48 AM   #9
xuzen
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Andrew Beauchamp wrote: View Post
Should you pre-empt, preform the technique before the strike happens?

The Story starts with ikkyo, my nage came in to preform the technique but was left a fool when there was no attack. Standing there with his arms in the air he then to precede in telling me off saying that he is trying to provoke a reaction.

My background comes from tomiki and I have been taught to expect the unexpected whether I’m nage or uke. I now training in Aikikai, I’ve carried some traits with me, do you think all technique starts with pre-empting or is that only for that advance cut down moves??
The Yoshinkan people has overcome this problem. Nage proceed to try to punch uke's nose. If uke blocks, then proceed to ikkajo osae.... if not land the punch on uke's nose.

Subsequently when uke raise his hand to hold/rub nose because it is painful, nage should proceed to do ikkajo on the appropriate raised uke's hand.

Either way, ikkajo technique is executed.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:23 AM   #10
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
It depends on the technique. In the case of your Ikkyo situation I'd say no
I'd say yes. I'm thinking of the start of the goshin no kata when I say that.

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
If he was trying to provoke a reaction, then he should have hit you in the face...
I agree.

Oh, and the egg obviously. It doesn't say its a chicken egg.
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:25 AM   #11
deepsoup
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Subsequently when uke raise his hand to hold/rub nose because it is painful, nage should proceed to do ikkajo on the appropriate raised uke's hand.
Oh, I like your style!
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:35 AM   #12
L. Camejo
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Boon,
Quote:
Nage proceed to try to punch uke's nose. If uke blocks, then proceed to ikkajo osae.... if not land the punch on uke's nose.

Subsequently when uke raise his hand to hold/rub nose because it is painful, nage should proceed to do ikkajo on the appropriate raised uke's hand.

Either way, ikkajo technique is executed.
This is very thuggish behaviour and should only be practiced in a sanctioned Shodothug (TM) dojo.

Brilliant way to get the job done though.
Quote:
I'd say yes. I'm thinking of the start of the goshin no kata when I say that
Sean, the example I gave later in my post regarding the backfist helping to create Ikkyo comes exactly from the technique in the Koryu Dai San that you're referring to.

The OP indicated that Tori came in to perform the technique with hands in the air, my assumption based on this was that he was probably trying to execute Ikkyo from a Shomen Uchi strike (or something similar) that never came from Uke. In this case, the attack of Uke assists the execution of Ikkyo but the Tori/Nage appears to have jumped the gun since there was no attack.

Just my 2 cents.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:29 PM   #13
xuzen
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
Oh, I like your style!
Sir, it is not my style. It is Yoshinkan mentality. One learn quickly the correct way or the painful way.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-18-2007, 11:59 AM   #14
Nick P.
 
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I would of told him "Well, I guess you need to work on that then."
Or "He did provoke a reaction; his own."

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Old 10-18-2007, 12:30 PM   #15
deepsoup
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Re: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Sean, the example I gave later in my post regarding the backfist helping to create Ikkyo comes exactly from the technique in the Koryu Dai San that you're referring to
Ah yes, thats pretty obvious now that I read your post properly. <Ahem> Oops. Carry on.
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Old 10-20-2007, 02:24 AM   #16
Stefan Stenudd
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Who is the attacker?

I'm not that fond of nage/tori making an atemi or such, to provoke a response in uke. In such a case, nage/tori is really the attacker, and uke is the one trying to defend him- or herself.

Nonetheless, if I expect an attack and it doesn't come, I find it a good strategy to continue with my aikido technique anyway - although that might be very close to attacking
Usually, one more irimi step and taisabaki is needed, to reach an uke who did not make the expected attack.
If you just freeze on the spot, when there was no attack, then it's difficult to avoid an attack suddenly coming at that moment.

That's how I look at jabs and such, too. Whether the attack is a big one, or just hinted and then stopped - treat it the same, and quickly advance as much as needed to do the aikido technique.

Of course, that's easier said than done...

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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