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Old 03-19-2007, 11:12 AM   #1
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The only folks who keep trying to find "other" influences are folks who don't know and can't see its Takeda's Aiki-no-jutsu all the way.
My last post in this particular thread I think before I unplug from aikiweb for a while and get back to work now all my simulations have been run. I'm sure you'll miss me Dan

I've never been bothered hugely one way or another as to the precise nature of Ueshiba's internal abilities and am quite willing to accept that their one and only source was Takeda. I do still think that later methods he used for these things are of importance and worthy of study. My question would be. Did Ueshiba pass this stuff on?

Part of my point of view was that he did. Tohei got it, so why does everyone keep saying it was lost and needs reintroduction. You say that Tohei left Dan but he didn't leave the old man did he? He left his son and the aikikai so that he could teach this stuff that nobody thought was needed in the aikikai.

Anyway, that's all I really wanted to say on the subject in the first place. Probably hasn't been a great thing that I happened to be crunching numbers for the last few weeks and waiting for the PC to finish stuff so that I can come and argue with you here.... maybe see you in a few weeks.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:37 AM   #2
Fred Little
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post

Part of my point of view was that he did. Tohei got it, so why does everyone keep saying it was lost and needs reintroduction. You say that Tohei left Dan but he didn't leave the old man did he? He left his son and the aikikai so that he could teach this stuff that nobody thought was needed in the aikikai.
Mike:

I've also heard it suggested that the split had much more to do with familial difficutlies arising from personal conduct than theory and practice of aikido.

And that version is so widely sidestepped in favor of overblown theories of high principles and theories of one kind or another by all factions that I think it likely to be closest to embarrassing and all-too-human truths that even the usual antagonists will unite to sweep them under the carpet.

Best,

FL

Last edited by Fred Little : 03-19-2007 at 11:38 AM. Reason: insert a missing "of"
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:28 PM   #3
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I've never been bothered hugely one way or another as to the precise nature of Ueshiba's internal abilities and am quite willing to accept that their one and only source was Takeda. I do still think that later methods he used for these things are of importance and worthy of study. My question would be. Did Ueshiba pass this stuff on?

Part of my point of view was that he did. Tohei got it, so why does everyone keep saying it was lost and needs reintroduction. You say that Tohei left Dan but he didn't leave the old man did he? He left his son and the aikikai so that he could teach this stuff that nobody thought was needed in the aikikai.

Mike
Mike,
You misunderstand about Tohei leaving to get it. That isn't in regards to the Tohei-Kisshomaru split, it's actually about his learning from Nakamura sensei after the war. Nakamura opened Tohei's eyes to what Ueshiba was doing. So, yeah, Tohei got it from outside rather than from Ueshiba. (Course, there's Tomiki. Where did he get it from? But that's another thread)

Try reading this:
http://www.b-smart.net/archive/tohei_intvw.html

Got a lot of good stuff in there. Things like, Tohei had no idea what Ueshiba was doing, so he just copied the movements.

Another interesting part is the translation of "non-resistance". Here, the translater translates it as "non-dissension". Hmm ... throws a wrench into Erick's posts over in baseline skills.

Or this part,
"Most people assume that if someone pushes on your body, you have no choice but to move or receive it. In fact, if you are relaxed and unified it is relatively easy to redirect the incoming force into your One Point and be stable as a rock, even with several strong men trying to push you over."

Fun stuff.

Mark
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:00 PM   #4
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

I don't misunderstand and am more than familiar with what Tohei learnt and where he learnt it. Tohei got much of what he learnt from outside of aikido, but he got his aikido from the Founder and the founder recognised this. He recognised that Tohei had 'it' too. Even if he didn't expressly teach 'it' to him himself. The difference is semantics really, Tohei passed 'it' on within aikido.

Anyway I'm retired from this thread I'm off to the dojo to try the unbendable arm and the immovable one for you Mark. I'll pick the biggest guy there too, and tell you about it in the other thread when I get home. Like I said a few days ago, don't expect me around here much in the near future, too much work to do.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 03-19-2007, 03:00 PM   #5
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You misunderstand about Tohei ...

Try reading this:
http://www.b-smart.net/archive/tohei_intvw.html

Got a lot of good stuff in there. Things like, Tohei had no idea what Ueshiba was doing, so he just copied the movements.

Another interesting part is the translation of "non-resistance". Here, the translater translates it as "non-dissension". Hmm ... throws a wrench into Erick's posts over in baseline skills.
Well.. as Joshua might say -- show me the kanji. "Dissent" means "to differ in feeling, disagree" which makes "non dissension" mean something far closer to "harmony" than to "nonresistance." Since O Sensei used both expressions on a number of occasions, either of which Tohei might refer to in giving a statement like this, you will have to hold up on the high-five/drop kick celebration -- for the moment.
More to the point, read a little further :
Quote:
Tohei interview wrote:
The real meaning of non-dissension is to relax in the face of conflict, to respect the opponent's Ki, and to lead it to a non-harmful conclusion.
Nearly everything I am working on is contained in that description.

You all still don't seem to get what I am about doing, for reasons I think that Tohei also touches on in this interview .
Quote:
Tohei Interview wrote:
Many ancient oriental methods use exaggerated expressions to explain a natural state, and end up producing completely the wrong results. But I tested everything thoroughly in order to learn from experience. By following natural principles, and doing as Nakamura Sensei did, rather than as he taught, I learned how to do it correctly and consistently. He noticed this and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was doing Kumbahaka. He knew that and wanted to know how I was doing it. I showed him that even his senior students were easily pushed over because of the tension created in their bodies by trying to follow those complicated instructions.
The first resistance to eliminate always lies inside. On this I think even Mike and Dan would agree.

Anything works with a modicum of training and a fundamental trust that it can be done. The mind finds the path regardless of the odd imagery it may use ot get there. It is easy, therefore when presented with the "This works -- that doesn't" in person to

1) see that it works
2) therefore trust that it works; and
3) therefore be able to find the flow that makes it work.

Now find a way to commmunicate and to define objective criteria of some realistic dimensions of 1-3 conceptually without "hands on." There's the hard part. It is necessary for students to be able to do proper correctives on their own, which even Tohei recognized, albeit with a different attempt at solution.
Quote:
Tohei Interview wrote:
It bothered me that even these [taiso] exercises were not enough for people to remember it between my visits. They could do it correctly when I was there, but by the time I saw them next they had already lost it! It simply didn't stick. It then occurred to me what was missing. If the secret is that the mind moves the body, then just going through the physical motions is not enough.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Or this part,
"Most people assume that if someone pushes on your body, you have no choice but to move or receive it. In fact, if you are relaxed and unified it is relatively easy to redirect the incoming force into your One Point and be stable as a rock, even with several strong men trying to push you over."
Really? I thought it was the ground and gravity they were using. Or else fascial strength.
As for me, and my interpretation of One Point, try "radius of turn reduced to zero, energy = ???" Do the math.

Quote:
Tohei Interview wrote:
The basic principles of the universe apply to anything you do. The reason people get poor results is because they try to go against natural principles. If you remember the principles and apply them subconsciously, they work for you every time. However, people have the bad habit of forgetting the fundamentals as soon as they make a bit of progress. That is why you need to keep training.
The bold portion is the key. Training is applying them. But Tohei recognizes you must have a statement of general principles that enables you to both remember them and then work out their applicaiton in novel cases.

Tohei's 4 principles do that, but they are not (nor do they attempt to be) a physical interpretaiton of what happens that can be used as an generally applied concept in the Western sense. They are a widely approved impression of feel for correct action -- they are not a rubric for detailed description of correct action. There are tools for doing this in physical terms, they just need to be applied correctly and consistently.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-19-2007 at 03:04 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-19-2007, 03:41 PM   #6
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Mike,
Another interesting part is the translation of "non-resistance". Here, the translater translates it as "non-dissension". Hmm ...
The term "non-dissension" is used it Tohei's books in the 1960's as well. Will Reed's translation is nothing new. That's the meaning in english that Tohei Sensei wants.

to quote Tohei from his sayings that have been around for decades, one has been titled "The Principle of Non-Dissension" ...

Quote:
The true way to success is exactly one and the same as the principle of non-dissension, and that is the way to peace.
...
Mind and body coordination gives us the ability to lead others.
...
The principle of non-dissension means that we understand and practice non-conflict. This does not mean passivity. Non-attachment is different than detachment. We see that through mind and body unification we have a choice to follow the path of peace.
This is quite different than any idea non-resistance. You may run into me like running into a wall or I may plough through you like you weren't even there. I will join with you and move through you and I won't conflict with you in doing it. I need to however understand how to be unified/aligned and relaxed to do so. That's the principle of non-dissension as it manifests itself in waza rather than philosophy.

This to me is not just attempting to interpret words in an interview but from training and having experienced it. Having been trained by some including Will Reed Sensei.

best.

Last edited by kironin : 03-19-2007 at 03:44 PM.

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Old 03-20-2007, 07:24 AM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Very nice post Craig, Thanks!

Best,
Ron

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Old 03-20-2007, 08:00 AM   #8
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post

This is quite different than any idea non-resistance. You may run into me like running into a wall or I may plough through you like you weren't even there. I will join with you and move through you and I won't conflict with you in doing it. I need to however understand how to be unified/aligned and relaxed to do so. That's the principle of non-dissension as it manifests itself in waza rather than philosophy.

This to me is not just attempting to interpret words in an interview but from training and having experienced it. Having been trained by some including Will Reed Sensei.

best.
The only thing I thought I'd add is thinking to join and create joining is where most go wrong in Aiki-do in the first place. Its mid level level.
Aiki is NOT manifested in the joining it has to be manifested in you. In yo or yin yang in you. Then when-they- contact you by their intent or you moving-things get interesting.
All of these "colorful" descriptions and "out there" notions of world peace are fine for some folks. But they get the average practioner as far as reading the words and meditating on the cosmic design.
Its all just colorful bullshit that teachers use and ner do wells keep sucking up and adding to their great eastern mystism model.
While the knowledge truly is profound- do we really need to be talked to like children? Some of these teachers really need to get a grip. I at least can handle someone holding back and while smiling knowing they ain't EVER gonna let go of the real stuff. But being led along some quasy new world religion while being spoon fed is a bit over the top.
You can teach it and have folks doing it in short order if they'll work hard.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:18 AM   #9
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Very nice post Craig, Thanks!

Best,
Ron
Ditto here.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:51 AM   #10
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The only thing I thought I'd add is thinking to join and create joining is where most go wrong in Aiki-do in the first place. Its mid level level.
Aiki is NOT manifested in the joining it has to be manifested in you. In yo or yin yang in you.
...
You can teach it and have folks doing it in short order if they'll work hard.
Cheers
Dan
join may not be the right word to use but I couldn't think of another word that was better. I didn't mean to imply that one tries in any sense to join or that aiki which is not a term I use is the joining. More like joining, connection, or what have you happens as an side effect of what as you put it as being "manifested in you".

So I agree with you. It's what I am doing, the non-dissension that I manifest, that creates the effect.

I would add to "if they'll work hard" and that if they will be really honest with themselves and take their ego out of their practice.

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Old 03-20-2007, 09:58 AM   #11
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

1) see that it works
2) therefore trust that it works; and
3) therefore be able to find the flow that makes it work.
Perfectly said...I will keep it short and sweet so no one here can pick on my grammar and tear strips off me but will say, my Sensei was Uchideshi of Tohei and I can feel hands on that "it" is definately alive "it" in our dojo is kind of unspoken but taught through physical application of the waza...and to be the largest strongest player in our dojo Sensei loves to demonstrate how "it" works on me, and "it" does work.We are not a Ki aikido club but Sensei was a Ki no kenkyukai instructor for many years before he broke away. To take seiza and have a 70 kg man push over a 90kg man with effortless motion (NOT WAZA) ...."it" is alive

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:49 AM   #12
Mark Freeman
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Its all just colorful bullshit that teachers use and ner do wells keep sucking up and adding to their great eastern mystism model.
While the knowledge truly is profound- do we really need to be talked to like children? Some of these teachers really need to get a grip.
Stop sitting on the fence Dan, why don't you say what you think!

cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:12 PM   #13
shidoin
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

I think that Gozo Shioda was one of the few that got it! it is very hard to say who is using internals without feeling it. I do not think that O'sensei's uke's were all just making him look good. If his students thought he was a fraud they would not have kept training. they felt it and the wanted it. Just as we all do. His great feats have been felt, seen and written about. he tapped into his internal strength, but I don't think it was passed on, and the Aikido of today is sooooo far from what he was doing, that Aikidoka may never be able to find it by just training in Aikido. I have contacted a Chi Gong instructor That was a student of Bruce Frantzis. Bruce trained with O'sensei for a few years before his death and saw and felt his power. But as he said, it wasn't passed down, so he looked in the internal chinese arts to find it. Ki, chi, or whatever you want to call it exists, but now we have the problem of finding how tap into it and use it it real time, in a real situation, not by doing exercises like the unbendable arm. Does anyone here have any real stories of a modern day Aikido instructor doing what O'sensei was able to do?
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Old 03-23-2007, 12:13 AM   #14
Aran Bright
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

One of the reasons explained to me, by one of ueshiba's students, why many "did not get it" is that osensei just did technique and then said, "okay now you do it".

He didn't explain, he left his students to figure it out for themselves.

Some got it some didn't, sounds like a normal dojo to me.

Aran

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Old 03-24-2007, 03:29 PM   #15
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
Does anyone here have any real stories of a modern day Aikido instructor doing what O'sensei was able to do?
Mr. Sloan,

What, specifically, do you mean by "what O'sensei was able to do?"

I was born after Morihei sensei's death, so I have no firsthand experience with how he felt. Only stories. However, I'm iconoclastic (read: prick) enough not to believe any stories until I prove them myself. Unfortunately, since he's gone... stories are just stories.

I will say without reservation, though, that I never felt anyone in Japan do the things that my teachers and seniors here can do.

Michael Hacker
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Old 03-24-2007, 04:21 PM   #16
shidoin
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Well they may be stories! but I, and many feel that he didn't pass along all of his teachings to his students. Many people believe great tales of the bible, and follow it page by page, but no one living has ever had fist hand experience of what was written. We do however have Living Uchi Deschi that have confirmed O'Sensei's Abilities. chances are you are still just doing waza.

(read prick)?
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Old 03-24-2007, 04:39 PM   #17
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
Well they may be stories! but I, and many feel that he didn't pass along all of his teachings to his students.
My question still stands... what specifically was the Old Man doing that was special and that no one is capable of now? Upon what do you base your feeling that he didn't pass things along? My somewhat educated opinion is that several folks have surpassed him.

Quote:
chances are you are still just doing waza.
You had a chance to find out first-hand...

Michael Hacker
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Old 03-24-2007, 04:57 PM   #18
shidoin
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

if people already surpassed him, we wouldn't be having discussions on these boards about it. People like tohei, said he didn't teach it, so he had to look elsewhere to find it. I speak of his internal skills that he applied in conjunction with his Aikido. I am familiar with your Dojo, I am not Familiar with you however. I have had the experience to feel the power of Aikido and internal arts combined. I have felt and seen the real deal. Most schools that I have had the pleasure of training and/or observing are just doing waza. Ukes bail out way before they should, instructors techniques are weak, and the students seem to be afraid to ask what if! O'Sensei was challenged by some of the best martial artists of his time, and he beat them, Aikido waza alone was not responsible for the feats he did. Chuck Clark is a Good instructor, you are very lucky to train with him, I have not had the pleasure of training with him, however, if someone from your dojo would care to invite me to train for an hour or two I would jump at the chance.

OSU!
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:09 PM   #19
shidoin
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

you never explained the (read prick)!
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:24 PM   #20
mjhacker
 
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
if people already surpassed him, we wouldn't be having discussions on these boards about it.
Mr. Sloan,

This is, unfortunately, a logical fallacy which, if I recall correctly, is known as "denying the antecedent." Lots of things in this universe have been "proven" and "disproven," yet people still keep talking about them.

Quote:
I speak of his internal skills that he applied in conjunction with his Aikido.
Thanks for the clarification. I still don't what you specifically mean when you say that, though.

At the risk of feeling like a schmuck for posting a quote... this is a favorite and somewhat appropriate to this discussion:

"He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars; general good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite, and flatterer, for art and science cannot exist but in minutely organized particulars." ~ William Blake

Quote:
Ukes bail out way before they should, instructors techniques are weak, and the students seem to be afraid to ask what if!
This isn't how our dojo operates. I'm always open to questions when I'm teaching, providing the question and timing are appropriate. Students are not only allowed, but expected to test me (when appropriate).

Quote:
O'Sensei was challenged by some of the best martial artists of his time, and he beat them
Please tell me their names and by what standard they were judged to be "some of the best."

Quote:
Aikido waza alone was not responsible for the feats he did.
Then what (specifically) was?

Quote:
Chuck Clark is a Good instructor, you are very lucky to train with him
Luck has absolutely nothing to do with it. I moved from my home in Tōkyō on my own volition specifically to learn from him. (Yes, I made sure to ask about how hot it gets here during the summer first.)

I am curious, though... if you've never trained with him or any of the rest of us... how do you know he's a good instructor?

Quote:
if someone from your dojo would care to invite me to train for an hour or two I would jump at the chance.
If memory serves, you chose to uninvite yourself.

Best of luck in your training.

Michael Hacker
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:28 PM   #21
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
you never explained the (read prick)!
Sorry... I was under the impression that it was fairly common in (American) English.

As I use it, it's a modifier that adds flavor or clarifies the previous word or phrase. I'm a bit embarrassed that I don't know the grammatical term (if, indeed, there is one) for it.

For example:

Girl: I'm really not dating right now (read: not dating YOU).

HTH

Michael Hacker
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:30 PM   #22
shidoin
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

well if you have to ask what O'sensei was doing, and you have not figured it out you are just doing waza. if you don't know what internal arts are or what they feel like you are just doing waza. As far as training at your dojo, I discussed this with chuck Via private message, which is between he and I not u.
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:37 PM   #23
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Quote:
Matt Sloan wrote: View Post
well if you have to ask what O'sensei was doing, and you have not figured it out you are just doing waza.
I think it's safe to say at this point that you don't have an answer for me. There's nothing wrong with that... just be honest with yourself. When someone asks you a question, sometimes they want to see what you know.

Quote:
As far as training at your dojo, I discussed this with chuck Via private message, which is between he and I not u.
Considering that (in sensei's absence) I'm the senior person currently teaching during the week, you may find this isn't quite the case.

Best of luck.

Michael Hacker
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Renshinkan
http://renshindojo.com/

自由心流合気武道 - 鍛心館
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Old 03-24-2007, 05:57 PM   #24
shidoin
Dojo: Aikibuken
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 48
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Well I know what I have read I know what I have felt, and I know what I have seen. it is not very hard to see if someone is controlling another person is it? Could I resist most of the the Aikido instructors techniques, Yes! Would I in front of a class, NO! You missed my answer to the question, O'Sensei was using internal power in conjunction with his waza! not sure how I could explain it any better. Also I really don't care if you are the acting instructor or the president of the U.S.A. when two people have a conversation, via (private) that's what it is. As far as your dojo, I don't care to be a part of it. You get all pissy because I didn't join? you don't even know the reason why. Also I can tell if someone is a good instructor or if they suck by watching, I have seen alot of shit schools, when you have been in this a a while I think we can determine what is good and what is bad. As far as u finding out what I know! I Guess i know more than u about O'sensei and his Students. Perhaps u should get O'sensei's bio, by john stevens, if you are going to train in the art u should probably know the history of the founder
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Old 03-24-2007, 06:02 PM   #25
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
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Re: Ueshiba, Tohei, and "Non-Dissension"

Mr. Sloan,

I provided information for you about why you were not invited onto our mat the one time you came into our dojo without an invitation or prior notice. I remember wishing you good luck in finding a place to train.

(By they way, meeting me on one brief occasion wasn't an invitation to call me by my first name. I'm relatively old fashioned.)

Sincerely,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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