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Old 10-04-2007, 02:29 PM   #26
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
John, you see... that's why I promised to myself not to go back to the States until you change your mentality. While I was there last time, I was driving from Dallas to New Orleans with an Irish colleague (me being a Spaniard) and we were stopped, scanned and questioned just because we were... well, a Spaniard and an Irishman. Not funny, you know. I am not a potential threat to nobody. Period.

Maybe you want to be treated like that when out of your country?
MY mentality? I am reporting how it works here. We 'can't' profile because of the controversy, so we have to treat everyone as a potential threat, but then everyone's grandmama's & other folks complain. Between a rock & a hard place, my man. By the way, yes I have been out of the country many, many times & lived in various countries. Guess what? I am stopped & questioned occasionally because I am American. But I understand why. Does it offend me? Not in the least. Do I boycott those countries? HA!
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:34 PM   #27
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
...The point is, we are talking about the States, not about Turkmenistan. ...Me, I prefer to be asked for a three-euro bribe in Indonesia rather than to be stopped, scanned and questioned in Louisiana..
Yes, we are talking about the States - a sovereign country that needs to control its borders, esp. now in this day & age. This is not an area where the rest of the world can feel it can come over & just travel willy nilly because we are 'the States'.

And you would really rather be in an area where you have to pay a bribe, & perhaps find yourself in whole kinds of trouble, rather than being questioned in the US??? Paying a bribe doesn't offend you but answering questions does? Glad to hear you would rather support corruption of another nation rather than a country trying to protect its borders & inconveniencing you.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:36 PM   #28
Fred Little
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
W H A T ? R o n's W h i t e?

Dang .. after all this time ......

Wait. Let's consider the evidence:

1) Ron speaks at least two, perhaps three languages.

2) Ron reads and writes English better than 90% of the American population.

3) Ron has a French significant other.

4) These facts don't answer the question of Ron's relative whiteness, but they present a compelling case that he's clearly more European than American, since he's multilingual, literate, and not xenophobic in his personal relationships.

5) Given 4, he's likely to be profiled anyway.

Sorry Ron, that's just the way it is.

BTW, Larry Wilborn called and asked me to tell you that he knows exactly what you're going through....

Best,

FL
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:23 PM   #29
Flintstone
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Do I boycott those countries? HA!
Sorry, I don't feel I'm boycotting your country.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Yes, we are talking about the States - a sovereign country that needs to control its borders, esp. now in this day & age. This is not an area where the rest of the world can feel it can come over & just travel willy nilly because we are 'the States'.
Did you ever give a though on WHY "esp. now in this day & age" you need to control your borders?

Oh! Did you check your problems between your borders first, before treating outsiders like the real threat? How many of the "problems" come from outside and how many from between?

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
And you would really rather be in an area where you have to pay a bribe, & perhaps find yourself in whole kinds of trouble, rather than being questioned in the US??? Paying a bribe doesn't offend you but answering questions does? Glad to hear you would rather support corruption of another nation rather than a country trying to protect its borders & inconveniencing you.
Well, I don't inconvenience your country. I don't expect it to inconvenience me. But your country (sorry, facts are facts) are inconveniencing many other countries. Bah, never mind... when it's about petrol then it's ok.

Do you really think it's even close to normal than this lady had to be expelled back to Japan, while her husband was not informed at all during the whole process? Honest.

Now back to Aikido. Politics are just not my cup of tea. No offense intended, anyway.
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Old 10-05-2007, 08:49 AM   #30
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Ah, got it. See this is why we don't have profiling - everyone is treated as potential threat, otherwise, people profiled will get inconvenienced & offended & then ACLU comes in. So we continue on the road that EVERYONE is inconvenienced, even grandmama's & baby's.

But my question was to Ron, who most likely is white, too, no? Ron, was this what you meant?
Nope, definately not white (not that there's anything wrong with that ). Others seem to get my meaning just fine.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:05 AM   #31
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
N... Others seem to get my meaning just fine.

Best,
Ron
I don't know what race you are; had I known, I would've gotten your meaning.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:06 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

No worries.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-05-2007, 10:11 AM   #33
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
...

Did you ever give a though on WHY "esp. now in this day & age" you need to control your borders?...
Yes; possible terror attacks, illegals crossing over to earn money while getting free health care, education, etc., drug running, etc...

Quote:
But your country (sorry, facts are facts) are inconveniencing many other countries.
Umm, so? What country does not inconvenience another? That gives you a right to come to our country & expect a certain type of behavior from our authorities?

Quote:
Do you really think it's even close to normal than this lady had to be expelled back to Japan, while her husband was not informed at all during the whole process? Honest.
Don't know the whole story - if she/they failed to follow proper procedure then I have no sympathy. Not informing her husband, if this was indeed what happened, should not have happened.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:46 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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That gives you a right to come to our country & expect a certain type of behavior from our authorities?
I think everyone has a right to expect professional behavior from our authorities. Period. The ones who aren't professional should be fired. The same as I would be fired for not being professional on my job.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:49 AM   #35
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think everyone has a right to expect professional behavior from our authorities. Period. The ones who aren't professional should be fired.
There you have it. These guys didn't take the steps to figure out what was going on. They didn't inform the interpreter about the situation, so what the hell good was having an interpreter?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:50 AM   #36
Marc Abrams
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Alejandro:

I respectfully disagree with you position. I am much more comfortable in having a country that pays it's law enforcement officers well enough that routine bribery is not part of daily life.

The comment of why we have to protect our borders is simply ignorant. Your country has been the victim of terrorist attacks as well as here. I support the "inconvenience" of profiling. Much more efficient and effective than random search. I support the "inconvenience" of some sort of identity card (drivers license, national id card, etc.). I support the minor "inconvenience" of having anybody in a security/enforcement position questioning me, even subjecting me to a search. I gain far more freedoms by these inconveniences, than I would living with the greater fear of rampant crime, terrorist attacks, etc.. We do not owe an apology to anybody within or outside of our country in trying to make our country a safer country in which to enjoy our freedoms in. I do think that our leaders owe it's citizens an apology for being deceitful to us, not making our borders safer, intentionally devaluing the us dollar, wasting our young people's life is a sandbox that we do not belong in, etc.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:04 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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I support the "inconvenience" of profiling. Much more efficient and effective than random search.
Profiling leads to much more than "inconvenience". I almost lost my first job in computers due to profiling. Pulled off a train, searched without probable cause, couldn't afford to wait for them to get a search warrent, because then I'd miss my first day at work. And that was a minor case. Profiling has led to deaths. People shot 40 some times when they reach for a wallet to identify themselves. Profiling is part and parcel of discrimination.

Quote:
I support the minor "inconvenience" of having anybody in a security/enforcement position questioning me, even subjecting me to a search.
Unfortunately for your pespective, our constitution forbids unreasonable search and seizure.

Quote:
I gain far more freedoms by these inconveniences, than I would living with the greater fear of rampant crime, terrorist attacks, etc..
I disagree...I think we all lose when we cede our constitutional rights because of a momentary panic.

Quote:
We do not owe an apology to anybody within or outside of our country in trying to make our country a safer country in which to enjoy our freedoms in.
No apology needed if we do so professionally, and according to our own laws and constitution. But when the behavior is outside of that, bigotted and biased as well, of course we owe an apology. That's the minimum of being civil. And isn't this supposed to be a civil society? It's not so hard really...watch...

I'm sorry.

See? Easy.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-05-2007 at 11:07 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:09 AM   #38
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think everyone has a right to expect professional behavior from our authorities. Period. The ones who aren't professional should be fired. The same as I would be fired for not being professional on my job.

Best,
Ron
Professional behavior includes asking questions to folks you suspect of something, regardless of whether the person being asked questions feels offended.

Since my original comment you are responding to was in response to Alejandro & his treatment by the professionals in the US who questioned him, he did not say when he was 'questioned' that the people who asked the questions were unprofessional, just that he was offended by being asked. Being offended does not mean the people were unprofessional.

Last edited by Hogan : 10-05-2007 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:13 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Wait. Let's consider the evidence:

1) Ron speaks at least two, perhaps three languages.
English, used to speak Swahili, used to speak German, dojo Japanese... I can say hello in chinese. Having a really hard time speaking French. Ask my fiance.

Quote:
2) Ron reads and writes English better than 90% of the American population.
Aw shucks...now you're just flirting with me...

Quote:
3) Ron has a French significant other.
And she can cook, too!

Quote:
4) These facts don't answer the question of Ron's relative whiteness, but they present a compelling case that he's clearly more European than American, since he's multilingual, literate, and not xenophobic in his personal relationships.


Quote:
5) Given 4, he's likely to be profiled anyway.

Sorry Ron, that's just the way it is.
Yeah, well, Life is Good. Just gotta get better at living it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:17 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Professional behavior includes asking questions to folks you suspect of something, regardless of whether the person being asked questions feels offended.
Sure, you can be professional and do that job, and sure, sometimes people will be offended no matter how professional you are. But this entire thread is about a time when that *didn't* happen.

Quote:
Since my original comment you are responding to was in response to Alejandro & his treatment by the professionals in the US who questioned him, he did not say when he was 'questioned' that the people who asked the questions were unprofessional, just that he was offended by being asked. Being offended does not mean the people were unprofessional.
Of course not...but again, look at the situation that brought this thread about...were THOSE officers unprofessional, if the situation was as described? If they were unprofessional, do the people hurt by that situation deserve an apology? I think they do deserve an apology.
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:47 AM   #41
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
....but again, look at the situation that brought this thread about...were THOSE officers unprofessional, if the situation was as described? If they were unprofessional, do the people hurt by that situation deserve an apology? I think they do deserve an apology.
Best,
Ron
I'm afraid I can't answer that since I only know one side of the story.
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:14 PM   #42
Flintstone
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Since my original comment you are responding to was in response to Alejandro & his treatment by the professionals in the US who questioned him, he did not say when he was 'questioned' that the people who asked the questions were unprofessional, just that he was offended by being asked. Being offended does not mean the people were unprofessional.
No, I was not offended by being asked. I was offended because they stopped us for being a Spaniard and an Irishman. We were profesionally scanned, questioned and retained. But for no reasson at all.
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Old 10-05-2007, 03:06 PM   #43
Neil Mick
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Ron T wrote:
If they were unprofessional, do the people hurt by that situation deserve an apology? I think they do deserve an apology.
Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I'm afraid I can't answer that since I only know one side of the story.
But, assuming that you DID know the whole story (as in, the facts given here); and assuming that they WERE behaving unprofessionally (as in, people getting needlessly hurt and waiting in uncertainty for six+ hours, when it could all have been resolved in a 3 minute phone call)...THEN, don't you think that they deserve an apology?
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Old 10-05-2007, 04:19 PM   #44
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But, assuming that you DID know the whole story (as in, the facts given here); and assuming that they WERE behaving unprofessionally (as in, people getting needlessly hurt and waiting in uncertainty for six+ hours, when it could all have been resolved in a 3 minute phone call)...THEN, don't you think that they deserve an apology?
You DO like hypotheticals, huh?
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Old 10-05-2007, 04:30 PM   #45
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
No, I was not offended by being asked. I was offended because they stopped us for being a Spaniard and an Irishman. We were profesionally scanned, questioned and retained. But for no reasson at all.
Well, as long as they said 'thank you'.

But I doubt very very seriously, in fact I wholeheartedly say, that the law enforcement officials did not stop/question you because you were a 'spaniard' or that your friend was an 'irishman'. Do you think cops can see a person & say, "AH HA! A Spaniard, GIT 'EM!" Or "Save da' feller dat looks like an Irishman, for me!" Or, "Looks like I need one more Irishman to fill my profiling today... hey, he looks like one!"

You gave no details of why you were stopped, where you were, what time of day, what area were you in, i.e., bar, sports arena, hospital, etc., how you were bahaving, what other things were going on around you, what you were wearing as compared to those around you, etc. Not having both sides of the story, it is hard to decide with one biased viewpoint.
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Old 10-06-2007, 10:45 AM   #46
Neil Mick
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
You DO like hypotheticals, huh?
What I like, is some sort of definitive answer, at least so I understand your position. Can you please just answer with a yes or no question?

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Well, as long as they said 'thank you'.

But I doubt very very seriously, in fact I wholeheartedly say, that the law enforcement officials did not stop/question you because you were a 'spaniard' or that your friend was an 'irishman'. Do you think cops can see a person & say, "AH HA! A Spaniard, GIT 'EM!" Or "Save da' feller dat looks like an Irishman, for me!" Or, "Looks like I need one more Irishman to fill my profiling today... hey, he looks like one!"
NOW look who's into hypotheticals! And yeah: I can see this as a possibility.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:21 AM   #47
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Did the couple involved in the story check with the U.S. Embassy or Consulate before leaving for the U.S.. The trouble may have been avoided if they had.
David
The checked with the U.S. state department website and made sure that all of their paperwork was in order. They have both been in and out of the U.S. before (post 9/11) and had no problems before this one.
Hundreds or thousands of Japanese and American citizens fly in and out of the country every day without having to pre-arrange things with their respective embassies; Japan is a visa-waived country. Theoretically, our friend.

They shipped Haruna back because they suspected her of intending to violate paperwork protocols, not because they were profiling her as a terrorist or thought she was dangerous. Not because she had done anything wrong, or even that they had any evidence that she intended to do anything wrong; all they had was the suspicion that she would overstay her 90 days in the U.S. Nothing else.

Anybody know the cost of a flight across the Pacific?
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Old 10-06-2007, 04:29 PM   #48
Flintstone
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
You gave no details of why you were stopped, where you were, what time of day, what area were you in, i.e., bar, sports arena, hospital, etc., how you were bahaving, what other things were going on around you, what you were wearing as compared to those around you, etc. Not having both sides of the story, it is hard to decide with one biased viewpoint.
I think I already gave those details, but just in case: we were driving from Dallas to New Orleans. They stopped our car. That's all. No speed up. No "messing with Texas". No nothing. Six cops (three cars) hands in holsters.
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Old 10-07-2007, 08:25 AM   #49
Marc Abrams
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Ron:

You Said: "Profiling leads to much more than "inconvenience". I almost lost my first job in computers due to profiling. Pulled off a train, searched without probable cause, couldn't afford to wait for them to get a search warrent, because then I'd miss my first day at work. And that was a minor case. Profiling has led to deaths. People shot 40 some times when they reach for a wallet to identify themselves. Profiling is part and parcel of discrimination."

Profiling is part of normal human behavior. It can be a very effective and efficient way of engaging in inductive reasoning. I think that you would want law enforcement, intelligence, and military people to engage in this type of cognitive processing, rather than inefficient, indiscriminate thinking. The FBI has a great behavioral profiling department, which does a remarkable job in effective and efficient profiling. If in the course of our daily life, how many mistakes do we make? If the officers, in their best efforts to catch a wanted person sought to determine if you were or were not that person, then that is a VERY SMALL price to pay to live in safe society. In my view, our society is not safe enough. To say that profiling has led to deaths is like saying that rainfall has led to deaths. The incident that you were referring to had almost nothing to do with profiling and more to do with the situation and the people involved in the situation.

When we analyze information, we "discriminate" between meaningful and non-meaningful information. What else is new! I love how people who are so interested in being politically correct that they simply lose contact with common sense. Example- If it was known that most drugs smuggled up the eastern corridor of the US on I-95 in cars were done in cars with two Hispanic males (make that Hasidic males, or any other descriptive for that matter) with overly tinted windows, then you would want the police to profile and selectively pull-over cars that fit that profile. Unfortunately, when a similar tactic was employed by the New Jersey State Police, it was considered to be racially discriminatory! That went under the "NO SH*T SHIRLOCK" category. The police did not look to create a racially discriminatory profile, they simply analyzed REALITY and worked within what the statistics on REALITY told them.

We have become accustomed to thinking of freedom as devoid of our own personal responsibility; instead we focus in on an escapist version of "freedom". Freedom from something is escapist. Freedom to do something implies a personal responsibility that goes along with that. If a police man pulls my car over and asks to look inside my trunk, based upon some reasonable suspicion. FINE- I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE! Let that person do the job to make my community safer to live in.

I DO NOT ADVOCATE GIVING UP ANY OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS! Our need to live in a safe society does dictate that we allow the government to protect us. That does not mean that they can do what Bush has allowed to happen. I do not support the use of unreasonable search and seizure. If a reason can be brought out into the open to be debated and decided upon, that we should allow the government reason to search based upon real threat, real analysis, real profiling, then fine. I would much rather live in a safe world, than one in which I believe my rights have been preserved while our government runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to "protect us." I frankly feel that our government has scr*wed up it's efforts to really make our country safer so that we can continue to play in a sandbox which we should not be in.

When we label behavior as bigoted or biased, we first have to look closer at that behavior. Was the intent based on some bigotry? If emotionally neutral analysis of information yields certain profiles, that "bias" may be entirely justified. I DO NOT SUPPORT BIGOTRY! I do support using information in a manner that leads to more effective and efficient decisions and behaviors. For example, I live in a suburban community having moved out of a growing city over thirteen years ago. This was based upon the growing threat of crime. I did not care which "group" was responsible for the crime. my decision to live in an area which was safer for my family would have been the same regardless if the group associated with the violence were pygmy Hasidic Jews, WASP rapppers, Hispanic gang-bangers, African-American Crips, etc... My responsibility to myself and my family was to analyze the information and make a decision that was in my family's best interests.

I will continue to speak out against bigotry. I will continue to speak out when our government violates our rights, lies to us, etc. I will continue to speak out so that our government works in a manner that both protects us and protects our rights. Here is an interesting paradox. In Singapore, you can walk in a park at 4am. without any concern about violence. We cannot do that in Central Park in NYC. Which citizen is safer, which citizen has it's rights protected? There are no easy answers.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-07-2007, 05:10 PM   #50
peacewarrior
 
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

As an American who has been living in Asia for several years I think it should be noted that incidents regarding USA immigrations officials, as described in the original post are not uncommon. Even before 911, I have heard similar stories from friends traveling to the USA. Unfortunately, they have left a bad taste in many peoples mouths about going to the States.

I personally, am often embarrassed by the way I see international travelers treated while passing through US customs and immigration. The level of confrontation and negativity is so high compared to other places I have been.

Every country in this day and age need to be on the lookout for potential terrorist threats. This is an unfortunate fact, however from my personal experience I know that it is possible to go through security checks and immigration and still be treated with the respect that every human being deserves. I have been through many country's security and immigration without being belittled and made to feel I am a criminal.

An important point that we should be looking at is how Aiki was not used in this situation.

How different this situation could have been if the immigration officials would have treated this couple with respect instead of authority and conflict.

Would it had been so difficult to keep her husband informed on what was going on. Wouldn't we all have appreciated that little bit of respect. Why couldn't the authorities take the time and effort to look for the truth in their story. Is it fair to assume that because they were a young newlywed couple, they wanted to immigrate to the USA illegally. All of the legal paperwork was in order. If someone does not speak the language well, shouldn't there be more of an effort made to find proper translation or at least allow the woman in this case to properly explain herself in her native language. Speaking a foreign language is difficult, how easy it is to be misunderstood. The immigration officers should be aware of this even if other government officials are not.

Starting off with confrontation by assuming at the onset that they were going to break the law. Then continuing with a closed mind by not trying to find the truth. Followed by using force through authority by not allowing contact or explanation of what was going on. Only resulted in a whole bunch of hurt and negativity.

Seems to me there is a good Aikido lesson to be learned here.
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