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Old 11-03-2001, 06:14 PM   #1
Blackice
Dojo: Essex Budo kan
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Question Steven Seagal's kote-gashi

hi

i just started doind aikido and have seen steven seagal do kote-gashi in his movies and it looks very impressive. I have asked my instucters and follow students and got mixed replies on wether the person always flips.
So have said he won't flip but will gewt a broken arm while other have said they will flip. in practice we are trained to go over the arm in kote-gashi but what if it is applied on an aggressor who does not breakfall will he go over the arm? sorry to go

many thanks jon
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Old 11-03-2001, 06:47 PM   #2
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

My experience with individuals who are not familiar with the technique Kotegaeshi is that when the technique is applied to them they do not "flip", but rather they collapse on the floor like jello. You must remember, as students, we learn how to perform the "flip" or breakfall so that the technique can be performed quickly and powerfully without causing any harm. An individual without any knowledge of how to breakfall to prevent injury, would most likely just fall on the ground and probably suffer some injury to the wrist/arm.

The bad guys in Seagals films are quite familiar with his techniques and the means to avoid getting hurt when the techniques are appplied. And besides, what looks better, a bad guy falling on floor, or a bad guy flipping through the air?
Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 11-03-2001, 09:42 PM   #3
guest1234
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One of the dojos I call home is a college club, where students often come and go, and then return. So new faces often have years of Aikido experience. One day there was a new face in a not new gi, and we were doing kote kaeshi. He was a fairly big, young guy, like the type that likes to really resist a technique 'to see if it works' (or perhaps to see if a small female 'works')...

So...as I applied the wrist lock he just stood there. I continued, thinking to myself his wrist felt like the slack was out and wondering why he was just standing there still, when he suddenly yelped and fell to the floor.

Turns out the gi was not new, but he was. It was his first day. So that's what at least one person did who didn't know what to do. (if he is reading this, sorry! )
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Old 11-04-2001, 06:27 PM   #4
mj
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Hmmm

Kote gaeshi.

I always thought the purpose of this technique was to break the balance of uke.

So if they do a 'flip' or forward ukemi, haven't they kept their balance?

If it is applied so strongly as to 'break' something, surely it is being done at the wrong angle, because they shouldn't be able to resist at the right angle.

As usual, I await correction

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Old 11-04-2001, 07:47 PM   #5
guest1234
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I would say that in doing the breakfall or flip uke has either kept (or regained) control over his own center but is paying for that control with loss of height and a possibility to be pinned...at least that is how it feels to me.

I'd say the break risk (although I see it more of a soft tissue damage risk) would occur when a novice uke senses the loss of balance, and attempting to regain it reacts with movement in the wrong direction (e.g. opposite of the direction of the wrist turn in kote kaeshi, turning away from and moving out from nage in nikyo) and so suddenly increasing the torque on the joint. This is demonstrated by new students all the time
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Old 11-04-2001, 07:56 PM   #6
guest1234
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In fact, the new student I'd mentioned was a good example of that: he was moving nicely, it felt like I had his balance but just when I expected him to fall, he stopped suddenly in his movement and stood up quite straight and stiff. That was him sensing the fall, and not knowing how to fall, using all his good sized strength to force himself upright, in a way pushing the twist away from his center and into his wrist, where he soon realized he didn't want it.
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Old 11-05-2001, 04:49 AM   #7
ian
 
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I think stiffness definately has something to do with it. One of my old instructors intervened between this drunk bloke who was beating up his wife in the street. The drunk bloke turned round to punch him and he did kote-gaeshi. He said he was amazed how well the bloke flipped over. Also, when I was just starting I was thrown with kote gaeshi by Yamada and he definately was able to flip my body over without me having to go over in any way - he had complete control over where my body was going. I landed perfectly.

I think a lot depends on how you do the kote-gaeshi. Yamada sensei has some great circular movement in the vertical direction. Some peopl emphasise the movement of the arm over the application on the wrist.

Ian
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Old 11-05-2001, 04:51 AM   #8
ian
 
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P.S. like any technique, I'd say that if they sense the loss of balance and try to regain it, you change the technique and take them the way they were moving (e.g. into kokyu-nage/sokumen irimi-nage).

Ian
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Old 11-05-2001, 05:47 AM   #9
L. Camejo
 
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Ai symbol

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
I think stiffness definately has something to do with it. One of my old instructors intervened between this drunk bloke who was beating up his wife in the street. The drunk bloke turned round to punch him and he did kote-gaeshi. He said he was amazed how well the bloke flipped over. Also, when I was just starting I was thrown with kote gaeshi by Yamada and he definately was able to flip my body over without me having to go over in any way - he had complete control over where my body was going. I landed perfectly.

I think a lot depends on how you do the kote-gaeshi. Yamada sensei has some great circular movement in the vertical direction. Some peopl emphasise the movement of the arm over the application on the wrist.

Ian
Hi all,

I agree with Ian's post. Once, when I had just begun Aikido, my sensei and I were teaching a women's self defence class. One of their male companions was a black belt in karate I think, and he taunted them that the kotegaeshi that we were demonstrating would never work in reality.

My sensei offered him to try it out. The guy threw a full force karate punch, which my sensei sidestepped and... well you know the rest.

The guy did an almost picture PERFECT kotegaeshi breakfall. The funny part was afterwards, when we asked him if he knew how to breakfall he said "no".

I guess he was relaxed enough (not to mention smart as well ) to go with the force of the kotegaeshi, instead of fighting it, which would have probably bruised a lot more than his ego.

My 5 cents.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-05-2001, 06:59 AM   #10
Blackice
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thanx for all ur answers there seems to be two answers to the question i suppose it's the skill level you are is what detemines what would happen i agree with making a circular this seems the right idea where as a strong wrist lock would drive them striaght to the ground instead thanx jon
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Old 11-05-2001, 12:46 PM   #11
Richard Harnack
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Kotegaeshi & "Flipping"

or is it the "Flipping Kotegaeshi"? (Sorry, couldn't resist the bad pun )

Actually, over the years I have noticed that certain styles of training put a heavy emphasis on Uke being able to "leap over" into a breakfall, while other styles put the emphasis on Uke dropping quickly.

In part what determines which you do depends on the execution of the kotegaeshi itself. When I first started training most everyone was turning the wrist out to the side, thus necessitating either the "flipping breakfall" or a quick turn and a back fall. However, as my training progressed, kotegaeshi became much smaller and compact so that Uke had little or no opportunity to do the large breakfall.

As to the kotegaeshi Steven Seagal does in the movies, it is almost always the large version with the Uke taking a "dramatic" breakfall. I tell my students that this is because the camera can pick it up and it impresses 13 - 18 year old males.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 11-07-2001, 02:46 AM   #12
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Actually we are a couple of guys in our dojo who enjoy to take the breakfall from kotegaeishi It's kind of fun and really impresses the new students. I guess I'm a bit old for toying around like that, but once you've turned 30 and weigh in at around 180 punds it's great to actually be able to do something like that. However when I do kotegaeshi myself It's not important for me that uke go into a breakfall, but we pratice both the small and the big.

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 11-16-2001, 08:14 AM   #13
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Well taking a high fall or not should always be at Uke's discretion. Albeit, the more experience an uke has determines whether or not to high/break fall or take a roll. All a break fall is roll in the air. So one would imagine that a skilled uke should be able to take a roll instead of the break fall at any given time.
And yes the heavier you get the harder it is to want to get up and not take a dozen high falls in a row, like you used. Take that right from my own personal experience. My tip would be to never stop training.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 12-11-2001, 01:57 AM   #14
Tim Griffiths
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Quote:
Originally posted by SmilingNage
Well taking a high fall or not should always be at Uke's discretion. Albeit, the more experience an uke has determines whether or not to high/break fall or take a roll. All a break fall is roll in the air. So one would imagine that a skilled uke should be able to take a roll instead of the break fall at any given time.
I don't think so - if uke isn't allowed to touch the ground,
how can he roll? There are plenty of sensei's out there
who can throw me kotegeishi (I'm 220 pounds) such that
even if I try to roll it'll be in mid-air (=breakfall as you said).

Of course, there are lots of different 'versions' of kotegeishi -
some of them do give you a level of choice (usually the
ones which also allow you to clock the tori on the way past).

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 12-11-2001, 02:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by SmilingNage
Well taking a high fall or not should always be at Uke's discretion. Albeit, the more experience an uke has determines whether or not to high/break fall or take a roll. All a break fall is roll in the air. So one would imagine that a skilled uke should be able to take a roll instead of the break fall at any given time.
And yes the heavier you get the harder it is to want to get up and not take a dozen high falls in a row, like you used. Take that right from my own personal experience. My tip would be to never stop training.
I agree with Tim, I am uke alot for my sensei and when he throws in kotegaeshi it is not my decision how I fall. I just have to recieve what I am given. if he wants to pin me then I do not have the choice to roll, if he throws me gently then yes I may have a choice and I could choose to put effort in and throw myself in a huge breakfall... but that would just be silly. but if he wants to project me and throw me a few meters then I really have no choice but to go with it. I would not be able to attempt a simple forward roll and if I did then I would do myself damage, as I would be recieving alot of energy and not using that energy or dispersing it, I would just be directing it donwards into the mat at high speed instead of outward which is where he wants me to go anyway.
but... I enjoy the feeling of flying

my point being... I do not have a choice in how I fall in most cases, that is why both my sensei and I bow to each other before technique. in acknowledgement that I respct and trust him enough to give him that kind of control over me, knowing that he does not intend to cause me harm.

(when they dont bow... worry )

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Old 12-25-2001, 06:08 AM   #16
Peter Goldsbury
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An interesting thread. A few thoughts.

1. I think that what Mr Seagal does in his films should not constitute a norm for dojo practice. The situations are completely different. Of course, in a demonstration it makes tori feel good to have uke flying across the tatami, but demonstrations, like films, are not the norm for aikido practice. (I think demonstrations, like films, deserve a separate thread.)

2. I usually teach kotegaeshi as a katame waza, with an arm pin at the end (best done from a chudan tsuki). As, for example, for tanto/tachi dori. Here, there should be no question of uke having a choice whether to take a forward breakfall or do an ushiro-ukemi. If uke has such a choice, this indicates a major lack of control on the part of tori, in my opinion.

3. Yamaguchi Sensei once told me that executing kotegaeshi was like rolling up a carpet. Carpets are not usually rolled at waist height.

4. I suggest two training exercises for good kotegaeshi:
(1) A game. Tori should throw hard, but always aim to apply an arm pin. Uke should try to take ukemi and stand upright before tori can apply the pin. This exercise is very good for sharpening both tori's and uke's technique.
(2) Kaeshi-waza from kotegaeshi to 3-kyo, or reverse kotegaeshi (see M. Saito, "Traditional Aikido" Vol. 4).

Finally, most of the posts in this thread have focused on the wrist. But this focus obscures several crucial points of aikido techniques. The correct order should be: (1) Move out of the line of attack; (2) Unbalance the opponent; (3) throw the opponent.

The question of what ukemi is best for uke to execute misses all of these points.

Best regards to all,

P A Goldsbury
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