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Old 12-07-2001, 02:04 PM   #1
Axiom
Dojo: TC Aikido Center
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 34
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Ki Symbol hold downs?

I've recently been taking a judo class, and I've realized how little my aikido class actually focused on what to do AFTER you've thrown someone. The arm lock holddown techniques I've been taught in aikido(ie, sitting and standing pins) generally do not give you a great deal of control over uke, and the only useful motivation to prevent Uke from getting up is to cause pain, or to give them the alternative between staying down or having something broken. I don't think that these options are particularly close to Aikido's principles of nonviolence.

Judo, on the other hand, has dozens of hold downs that can be used to subdue uke without causing (excess) pain or damage, and could be done out of aikido techniques quite easily- for example, Kote gaish sets up kesa gatame(scarf hold) nicely, without the need to turn uke over, and without the possibility of breaking any of uke's joints.

Is there a reason that aikido dojos don't typically teach these techniques? Has anyone here learned judo-style hold downs in their aikido classes?

TIA,
Alex Magidow

_________
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
-- Gandhi
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:42 PM   #2
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
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Exclamation Hold Downs

Having taken both Judo and Aikido, I think that the differnces in osae are there for very good reasons (in my limited experience). Judo tends to focus more on a sport aspect, which means a one-on-one confrontation with rules etc. Aikido(at least in my school) is taught as more of a self-defense method, which means the possibility of dealing with more than one attacker. Kesa gatame is great, but if a couple of guys try to grab it's really no good to hold one person down with it while the other kicks you.

It's always seemed to me that the pins in Aikido are there because:
A)They can be applied quickly
B)Most can be applied standing or kneeling.
C)All are very effective in actually injuring someone.

While I realize hurting someone is distasteful, and not at all desirable, if you get attacked by two or more people, well it's probably inevitable that you will hurt one if you wish to remain unharmed.

Just my two cents...

Keith Lee
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:46 PM   #3
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 151
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Actually, we do focus a lot on pins - not dozens, but around 7-8 pins. Our instructor has made certain that we learn the pins after a takedown because otherwise (as you mentioned) the uke will get up. The pins in aikido go from the ikkyo pin (which doesn't really hurt a whole bunch but pins you to the floor) to some painful pins (sankyo, classic aikido (cradle), etc...)

There is one of our affiliate dojos in Minneapolis - I think it's The Warriors Cove. On the main page Mike Ellefson has a link for his last newsletter and his website. You might want to talk to him or see a few aikido pins from him.

I think you might want to try to follow a majority of your techniques to the ground and follow with a pin - then let your uke try to get out of the pin. This will test the effectiveness of your pins. (of course this execersize shouldn't turn into a fight - it's just a test to make sure that your pins are effective).

Good luck with your training.

In Aiki
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:51 PM   #4
daedalus
Dojo: Seiryukan Dojo/Illini Aikido
Location: Champaign, IL, USA
Join Date: Nov 2000
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The fact that the hold downs don't work may be for a few reasons. The first may be that you're doing them wrong. That usually is what's happening when something doesn't work for me. ;^)

These techniques may also not be for holding someone down at all costs. You need to see them in context. As aikido comes from samurai battle field arts, these techniques make a perfect opening for a final strike with a sword, staff, or spear in a vital area (the back of the neck, behind the ear, for example).

Are there any police officers on the list who have used an aikido pin on an arrestee? Has it worked without breaking a joint?

Brian
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http://www.shinjinkai.org/
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:52 PM   #5
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
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Mike E's homepage is

http://www.midwestaikido.com.

After I looked on the homepage, his link was no longer there. Sorry.
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Old 12-07-2001, 03:10 PM   #6
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
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try this address

http://www.midwestaikido.com/home.asp

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Old 12-07-2001, 09:31 PM   #7
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
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Okay one problem is the common misinterpretation of non-violence. We do not start violence we end it and the amount of force uke uses, determines the amount of force we use "against" him. So what is wrong with breaking a bone or dislocation a shoulder if it keeps you alive, you haven't killed anyone, and yes you can do that in the most extreme circumstances. Of course we would like to avoid these thing but it's hard sometimes.
Now "projection" techniques by there nature are to get rid of someone. They become useful against multiple attackers. If you want to control someone then you use a control. Now yes we do apply an osae after kote gaeshi but one thing I have never see O'sensei use it either in footage of him or in his books except in suwari waza where uke is pined on his back. So this might suggest the technique we use to turn uke over while standing may have added later.
Lastly ne waza aren't all that great just look at BJJ there are endless escapes a counters form them. I am not saying in some situations there not useful but they usually don't completely control uke's hands/arms so on the street where he is not bound by rules, he can hit, scratch, pull and a few other attacks.
So the mostly face down pins are used because the do in fact 'control' uke and not just 'suppress' or 'pin' him. That said if you have John Stevens Invincible Warrior, on page 177 (in my book it is so Irimi Nage Variation 2) you will see O'sensei performing Kata Gatame, a slightly modified one but still Kata Gatame. It is important to note that he does still have control over his uke's hands
To the last question about learning ne waza, they are part of the Yoseikan curriculum.

Please note I have edited my post as I said the technique was Kesa Gatame and it is in fact Kata Gatame.

Last edited by wildaikido : 12-08-2001 at 08:39 AM.

Graham Wild
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Old 12-07-2001, 11:55 PM   #8
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
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I think you are adressing here a false problem. I came to Aikido from a Judo background. In the beginning, I was proud of my Judo skills. Aikido locks were not effective on me (when done by my fellow beginners). I was taking pleasure in immobilizing every one at the dojo down Judo style. Once one of the senseis saw me bragging about my immobilization skills and asked me to pin him. When I did, he just grabbed my testicules strongly and I had to let go screaming with pain. He pointed out to me that Judo is a sport, and has rules. In the real life situations there are no such rules. Aikido locks might not be very effective, especially in the beginning, but they are very safe against any potential attack from your agressor. In case the pin fails, you just step back one or 2 steps and you're ready to defend yourself again.

However, I can assure you that pins by my sensei are so painful that I wouldn't even try to breath, let alone resist, when they are applied
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Old 12-08-2001, 03:18 AM   #9
unsound000
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 72
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Re: hold downs?

I would not worry too much about putting someone in pain that attacked me. Sometimes I get nervous about applying a technique that I found caused me more pain than other techniques. I think another reason you may have some doubts or questions about the pins you are using could be that you can feel uke's ability to counter or you can see a counter. Ask your teacher what to do if uke does x from the pin. I'm sure you'll feel more comfortable knowing it.
In Jujitsu, we do pins and holds. They work the best for larger and stronger people. Smaller people have to go for those arm, wrist, and yes, finger breaks that we all know and love. So, I don't know if that helped.


Quote:
Originally posted by Axiom
I've recently been taking a judo class, and I've realized how little my aikido class actually focused on what to do AFTER you've thrown someone. The arm lock holddown techniques I've been taught in aikido(ie, sitting and standing pins) generally do not give you a great deal of control over uke, and the only useful motivation to prevent Uke from getting up is to cause pain, or to give them the alternative between staying down or having something broken. I don't think that these options are particularly close to Aikido's principles of nonviolence.

Judo, on the other hand, has dozens of hold downs that can be used to subdue uke without causing (excess) pain or damage, and could be done out of aikido techniques quite easily- for example, Kote gaish sets up kesa gatame(scarf hold) nicely, without the need to turn uke over, and without the possibility of breaking any of uke's joints.

Is there a reason that aikido dojos don't typically teach these techniques? Has anyone here learned judo-style hold downs in their aikido classes?

TIA,
Alex Magidow

Last edited by unsound000 : 12-08-2001 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 12-08-2001, 09:27 PM   #10
jimvance
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 199
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Re: hold downs?

Quote:
Originally posted by Axiom
Is there a reason that aikido dojos don't typically teach these techniques? Has anyone here learned judo-style hold downs in their aikido classes?
Question the First.) Ueshiba and Kano came from different ryuha. There were times when they interacted, such as through Saigo Shiro (Daito Ryu/Kodokan) or Tomiki (Aikido/Kodokan). Japan did not have as their motto "E Pluribus Unum", or the belief in the great melting pot, where we can take all different cultures and blend them into some great new, universal ideal. Japan was so distinctly stratified at the time when Judo and Aikido were conceived that they still hold many of the cultural stigma associated with medieval feudalism.
Another reason is that Ueshiba only received kyoju dairi from Daito Ryu and was only allowed to teach certain techniques. Anyone watching any of the Daito Ryu films put out by Stan Pranin cannot help but notice some of the "crazy" (and I say this only with the deepest of respect) pins these guys do. This was the actual ryu (main branch) Aikido developed from, and you don't see many, if any, sensei teaching THOSE pins.
And last but not least, Ueshiba and Kano were contemporaries of a sort. They were both highly respected in their fields, both came from well-off families, and both had backing from the government in one form or the other. If Kano were to defer to Ueshiba or vice versa, what would that say about their great "discoveries" (and they were great). Saigo Shiro left both and became an archer. Tomiki combined both, and today the debate still rages "to compete or not to compete?" Perhaps it is in the Great Melting Pot that something refreshing and vibrant can be found expressing the heart of both these pioneers.
Question the Second.) Yes. My teacher trained strongly in Judo before starting Aikido.

Jim Vance
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Old 12-11-2001, 02:23 AM   #11
Tim Griffiths
Dojo: Nes Ziona Aikikai
Location: Suzhou, China
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 188
China
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I think the point about the standard pins in aikido is
not that they're the most effective or quickest to do,
but that they continue the joint movement of the
technique. Thus the ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonko,
shihonage etc pins all work on the shoulder in the
same direction as the original rotations. We pin
that way to understand more about the technique,
not only to control uke.

Aikido isn't Judo. The aims of the pin and what we
mean by 'control over uke' are quite different. An aikido
pin allows us to control uke without pain while protecting
ourselves, and at the same time gives us the opportunity
to respond quickly to a second attacker by both disabling
the uke on the ground (for example by breaking the arm)
and being free to deal with the new attack.

Judo holds, OTOH, *usually* involve no strong pain, but
can't disable uke quickly if tori needs to deal with something
else (Emphasis on usually to stifle objections).

Tim
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Old 01-01-2002, 09:21 AM   #12
Speireag
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Vermont
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 20
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Quote:
Originally posted by daedalus
Are there any police officers on the list who have used an aikido pin on an arrestee? Has it worked without breaking a joint?
Yes, I have, and yes, it did. It's never the pin in its purest form, but it's often recognizable. I have used Aikido movements in other control situations, and found them effective. In all of those cases, the people were trying to get away and had to go through or past me to achieve it. I have yet to have someone try to kill me barehanded. The difference between someone trying to get away and someone trying to kill you is significant.

After all, we are not always practicing for the worst case. We are practicing for the best possible response to any case, including less-than-lethal situations.

One thing which we do not address much on the mat is the psychological interaction, which is critical. (I believe that the main reason we don't practice this is that there's no way to practice it dynamically; the best we can do is rote conversations, which could described as a sort of verbal kata.) When I take someone down, it's not just wham! down you go and that's it. I do my best to control effectively but compassionately, and that includes a verbal appeal to reason. "Sir, please cooperate! I don't want either one of us to get hurt!" or "Ma'am, if you continue to resist, you will be charged with another crime. Why penalize yourself because of what someone else did?" or "How will this help you?" This engages the mind, and it also sends a number of simultaneous messages:

I'm acknowledging the risk to both of us, not trying to pretend that it's my way or the highway. This avoids the trap of provoking an ego response, where he feels the urge to prove me wrong.

I'm engaging his attention, so that he is not concentrating completely on defeating me physically. This divided attention is critical to maintaining a position of advantage.

By making this effort, and trying to communicate, I'm acknowledging his dignity, which is very important in a situation with such potential for humiliation. That, alone, has saved me many physical confrontations.

This brings me to courtesy. I cannot recall who said, "The purpose of etiquette is self-defense." In my experience this is true. I have avoided many confrontations, fights, complaints, internal investigations and lawsuits by going out of my way to explain something in detail; or letting a person talk for awhile and express a grievance or opinion, whether or not I agree; or simply by addressing him or her courteously.

Courtesy is my first line of defense after awareness, but it's more than that. I have found that when I am at my best in any stage of a confrontation, I am invariably at my most courteous. Courtesy, practiced thoroughly and consistently, can inform not just our conscious choice of tactics, but also our unconscious physical actions. It is very powerful in this way, but so subtle that it's easy to miss, and difficult to appreciate fully. Perhaps this is because I don't think that you can be on your best behavior without genuinely caring about the other person, and being invested in the outcome. Courtesy helps us achieve that state of mind.

I think that studying this thoroughly is one way to realize that the end and the means are in fact the same thing. How we do a thing is just as important as what we do, but it's more than that: it's the same thing.

I know that this has strayed somewhat from the original question. I've been exploring these notions consciously for quite awhile now, and I suddenly saw the connection between pinning someone down physically and engaging his or her spirit. So I thought that I'd explore it.

Best wishes,

Speireag Alden
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