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Old 09-14-2007, 02:07 AM   #1
Neil Mick
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9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

I was watching Steven Colbert and came across this:

To save America, we need another 9/11

Quote:
ONE MONTH from The Anniversary, I'm thinking another 9/11 would help America.
What kind of a sick bastard would write such a thing?

A bastard so sick of how splintered we are politically - thanks mainly to our ineptitude in Iraq - that we have forgotten who the enemy is.
Bykofsky also helpfully added some useful targets for al Qaeda to consider:

Quote:
America's fabric is pulling apart like a cheap sweater.

What would sew us back together?

Another 9/11 attack.

The Golden Gate Bridge. Mount Rushmore. Chicago's Wrigley Field. The Philadelphia subway system. The U.S. is a target-rich environment for al Qaeda.
Colbert rightfully suggested that Bykofsky was being too modest: that his patriotism meant that he was important enough to include his own house, on the list.

It IS interesting, tho: that suddenly we are hearing about supposed al Qaeda plots against the US. Reality, or more variants of color-coded alerts, designed to distract us from the Petraeus dog-n-pony show? Time will tell...

My total response is in the title of the thread. whoah. Amazing that this guy even gets airtime.

You can watch an interview with this guy, here.
 
Old 09-14-2007, 03:25 AM   #2
Michael Varin
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Definitely sick, but this is how elitists think. The masses need to be motivated to accomplish great things. They know what's best for us, even if they have to trick us, and even if some of us have to die.

From the article:
Quote:
Turn back to 9/11.

Remember the community of outrage and national resolve? America had not been so united since the first Day of Infamy - 12/7/41.

We knew who the enemy was then.

We knew who the enemy was shortly after 9/11.
People love to compare 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. The part most of them leave out is that our gov't let both attacks happen, so we would be supportive of the over-seas aggressions. This is 100% fact about Pearl Harbor, and certainly appears to be the case with 9/11.

What the hell ever happened to the original American approach to foreign policy?

http://www.liberty1.org/farewell.htm

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
 
Old 09-14-2007, 03:52 AM   #3
Taliesin
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Isn't the official US view now that you need to invade Iran's oil firelds to establish security in Iraq. Wasn't that the evidence Gen Petraeus gave. ( I wonder who he has a job lined up with)
 
Old 09-14-2007, 06:20 AM   #4
Mark Freeman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What the hell ever happened to the original American approach to foreign policy?

http://www.liberty1.org/farewell.htm
Hi Michael,

On reading GW's excellent essay, I was stuck by the thought that your current president would probably have trouble reading the article out loud, let alone thinking up something as erudite and intelligent. e.g.
Quote:
Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest, but even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
I'm sure there are some out there that will object to the term 'liberal intercourse', simply because it contains the word 'liberal' which to some sectors of society has become almost demonic, that and the fact that 'liberal intercourse' sounds slightly perverse.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 09-14-2007, 07:57 AM   #5
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
...
My total response is in the title of the thread. whoah. Amazing that this guy even gets airtime....
Don't you love free speech??
 
Old 09-14-2007, 08:02 AM   #6
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Isn't the official US view now that you need to invade Iran's oil firelds to establish security in Iraq. Wasn't that the evidence Gen Petraeus gave. ( I wonder who he has a job lined up with)
Iran is later on the invasion list - 1st is Cuba to take over the 1950's chevy market (we have to protect the rich & their classic cars, you know), THEN it's Iran, but only after the Skull & Bones give their approval (they are still working on Cuba)...
 
Old 09-14-2007, 08:47 AM   #7
dps
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
It IS interesting, tho: that suddenly we are hearing about supposed al Qaeda plots against the US. Reality, or more variants of color-coded alerts, designed to distract us from the Petraeus dog-n-pony show? Time will tell...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ_Fc6jmIUI

David
 
Old 09-14-2007, 05:57 PM   #8
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Oh, goody: yet ANOTHER complex issue presented in a simple, glitzy comic-book cum CGI-format (and we CAN'T forget the dramatic MUSIC! What's a videogame-style war without a good marching musical accompaniment!)

THIS program will assuredly prevent us from making the same mistakes we made in 2003, for sure!
 
Old 09-14-2007, 06:00 PM   #9
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Don't you love free speech??
free speech does not = mass media saturation. I'd say this guy had far MORE than his allotted 15 minutes...
 
Old 09-16-2007, 10:10 PM   #10
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

But what I'd like to know from our Conservative brethren out there is: what's YOUR take on Bykofsky's views? Is he cuckoo for cocoa puffs; or do his words resonate?
 
Old 09-17-2007, 08:45 AM   #11
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
free speech does not = mass media saturation....
Sure it does.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 08:54 AM   #12
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But what I'd like to know from our Conservative brethren out there is: what's YOUR take on Bykofsky's views? Is he cuckoo for cocoa puffs; or do his words resonate?
I think you are missing his subtle point in his article. He states that the attention spans of americans are short & that we only like short wars & that we are only united in the very short aftermath of something happening.

He sounds kind of sick & tired of how us americans are nowadays - disunited, short attention spans, etc...

He writes:
Quote:
"What kind of a sick bastard would write such a thing? A bastard so sick of how splintered we are politically - thanks mainly to our ineptitude in Iraq - that we have forgotten who the enemy is."

"Americans have turned their backs because the war has dragged on too long and we don't have the patience for a long slog. We've been in Iraq for four years, but to some it seems like a century. In contrast, Britain just pulled its soldiers out of Northern Ireland where they had been, often being shot at, almost 40 years.

That's not the American way.[/b]

In Iraq, we don't believe our military is being beaten on the battleground. It's more that there is no formal "battleground." There is the drip of daily casualties and victory is not around the corner. Americans are impatient. We like fast food and fast war."

"America likes wars shorter than the World Series."

Remember the community of outrage and national resolve? America had not been so united since the first Day of Infamy - 12/7/41.

We knew who the enemy was then.

We knew who the enemy was shortly after 9/11.


"Because we have mislaid 9/11, we have endless sideshow squabbles about whether the surge is working, if we are "safer" now, whether the FBI should listen in on foreign phone calls, whether cops should detain odd-acting "flying imams," whether those plotting alleged attacks on Fort Dix or Kennedy airport are serious threats or amateur bumblers. We bicker over the trees while the forest is ablaze.

America's fabric is pulling apart like a cheap sweater."

"What would sew us back together?

Another 9/11 attack.

The unity brought by such an attack sadly won't last forever.

The first 9/11 proved that."
He sounds disappointed in how quickly we become disunited compared to past wars such as WWII, how quickly we want things done & how we have no patience. He is not seriously hoping for another attack & anyone who believes so is someone not to be taken seriously.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 11:54 AM   #13
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I think you are missing his subtle point in his article. He states that the attention spans of americans are short & that we only like short wars & that we are only united in the very short aftermath of something happening.
That does seem to be his point, but it's not entirely accurate. First, we were not "united" before 9/11. The country was still seething about the election of 2000 and GW had no credibility, taking a month-long vacation from doing nothing.

Second, we had already been heavily divided for years since the Republican hit-job on Clinton and the attempted impeachment.

Third, although we were strongly united after 9/11, Bush quickly destroyed that by pointing to Iraq as the enemy. I will admit that he was able to fool over half of Americans into believing that Saddam had something to do with it. It's a shame that about a third of Americans still think Saddam was involved long after any primate should have recognized that he had nothing to do with it at all.

But the steady loss of support for the war has nothing to do with short attention spans or lack of patience with the war itself: Americans have witnessed the proof that there were never any weapons of mass destruction, they have witnessed the years of shifting "reasons" Bush has given for the war all proven BS, they have witnessed the soldiers being denied suitable armor and strategy. Most Americans came to the realization a couple of years ago that Bush is a bumbling nincompoop who has mismanaged the war for every goal except the enrichment of Cheney's pals at Haliburton, and they are sick and tired of the waste of life now and the indebtedness Bush is piling onto our children and grandchildren for something that has only weakened our country.

There is no value in being united for the wrong reason.

And at this point, I'm doubtful that even another 9/11 would "unite" us because few would put it past Bush at this point to have engineered the whole thing to boost his own approval rating.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
He sounds disappointed in how quickly we become disunited compared to past wars such as WWII, how quickly we want things done & how we have no patience.
With this much time, WWII was over and we had beaten Germany, Italy and Japan in battles that literally spanned the globe. Under Bush, we have been tied down for four years in one country, fighting people who wear rags and sandals and make their most effective weapons from unexploded artillery shells.THAT is what people are tired of and there's not much disunity about it. MOST Americans--the VAST majority--want us OUT of Iraq.

And it is true that we have lost patience at having an idiot hold our best people hostage for the sake of his own ego and his concern that history view him as a brilliant man. The only way he will be considered anything but a total moron is if "history" mistakenly assesses "Curious George" instead of "Idiot George." The monkey's record is brilliant in comparison.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
He is not seriously hoping for another attack & anyone who believes so is someone not to be taken seriously.
I will agree with you on that.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-17-2007, 12:19 PM   #14
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That does seem to be his point, but it's not entirely accurate. First, we were not "united" before 9/11. The country was still seething about the election of 2000 and GW had no credibility, taking a month-long vacation from doing nothing.
He didn't say we were united before 9/11, he said 9/11 united us....

Last edited by Hogan : 09-17-2007 at 12:24 PM.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 12:38 PM   #15
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
He didn't say we were united before 9/11, he said 9/11 united us....
But he did say our "short attention spans" and "lack of patience" are what broke that unity and that is not true. It was watching GW Bush waste everything but his own profits (and Cheney's) that destroyed that unity and wasted Americans' patience with his claims to be serving the greater American good.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-17-2007, 01:47 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
He didn't say we were united before 9/11, he said 9/11 united us....
If I recall correctly, the "unite" was for about 5 days before some liberals began publicly proclaiming (with no repudiation from other liberals, IIRC) that:

1. The attacks were caused by US policy overseas
2. We should not retaliate but should "open a dialogue" with the Islamists.
or
3. George Bush was part of a conspiracy that deliberately exploded the WTC towers in order gain power, yada, yada, yada.

So a 5-day "united" wasn't much. We were only a week into the Afghanistan military campaign before the NYTimes was proclaiming it a "quagmire like Vietnam".

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 09-17-2007, 01:51 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
It was watching GW Bush waste everything but his own profits (and Cheney's) that destroyed that unity
See my previous quote. The "unity" after the WTC bombing only lasted 5 days. And every day thereafter, liberals were more and more open about their basic position against America. The same media, for instance, that showed every photo of the Abu Ghraid mini-scandal, day after day (47 days in a row for the NYTimes), refused to show pictures of dying or mutilated Americans in the WTC attack because it "might arouse bad feelings against innocent Muslims". Please. Notice that the discussion right here is not about the sick Muslims but more about spewed Bush Derangement Syndrome.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 09-17-2007, 02:07 PM   #18
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Sure it does.
No, sorry, it doesn't. In effect, mass media saturation equates to the opposite of free speech, since it pushes out other views, in its rush to give the loudest voice to those with the most lucre.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 02:19 PM   #19
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I think you are missing his subtle point in his article. He states that the attention spans of americans are short & that we only like short wars & that we are only united in the very short aftermath of something happening.

He sounds disappointed in how quickly we become disunited compared to past wars such as WWII, how quickly we want things done & how we have no patience. He is not seriously hoping for another attack & anyone who believes so is someone not to be taken seriously.
Thank you for your take on this.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And every day thereafter, liberals were more and more open about their basic position against America.
This is why it's so hard to take your posts seriously. This one hits the reality-wall on several levels:

1. Liberals are anti-American. This saw got tired in 2003.

2. The implication is that Liberals are some sort of "united front." You make this implication often in your previous posts, here (not unsurprising, coming from a man who doesn't seem to realize that the Nazi's WEREN'T actually "Socialists," but...).

Quote:
The same media, for instance, that showed every photo of the Abu Ghraid mini-scandal, day after day (47 days in a row for the NYTimes),
The "same media" also showed the twin towers falling, over and over. The same media also gave the drumbeat for war at the time, and the same media overwhelmingly allowed Conservative pundits and generals to appear nonstop to tout the war, with almost NO "equal time" for the anti-war pundits.

Quote:
refused to show pictures of dying or mutilated Americans in the WTC attack because it "might arouse bad feelings against innocent Muslims
Of course, you seem to convieniently forget the 80,000 Muslims deported and detained in the post-9/11 climate, with almost no reporting on their plight, then or now. In fact, there are a LOT of anti-Muslim aspects to the MSM absent from your rant, above.

Big surprise.

Quote:
Please. Notice that the discussion right here is not about the sick Muslims but more about spewed Bush Derangement Syndrome.

FWIW

Mike
("FWIW," which isn't very much), considering that you've got all the the Islamophobia you care to stomach, in this thread, here.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 02:37 PM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
1. Liberals are anti-American. This saw got tired in 2003.
Just to grab one handy example out of many that are in the public record: Osama Bin Laden came out in favor of Democrats in the Kerry/Bush election, after the 2006 election (via proxy), and just a few days ago. In each speech, he used the US liberals' talking points as a basis for his talks. The mainstream media went quiet about that support from Osama each time. Take a look back during the last week and notice the thundering silence. Osama wants to destroy the U.S.... if liberals aren't basically anti-American, why do you think he appeals to them each time? Why does Chavez appeal to liberals for support? Why did/does Castro appeal to liberals for support. Why do Islamic terrorists work so hard to feed information through the liberal press? This is rather like the London Times' comments about the BBC bias.... this stuff is too well-known to waste time arguing; the truth speaks for itself.
Quote:
2. The implication is that Liberals are some sort of "united front." You make this implication often in your previous posts, here (not unsurprising, coming from a man who doesn't seem to realize that the Nazi's WEREN'T actually "Socialists," but...).
Take a look at the very decisive unpatriotic comments by MoveOn.org about "General Betray Us", the leader of the American military in time of war when troops lives are endangered. How many of your "ununited" liberal presidential candidates publicly deplored and distanced themselves from this kind of unpatriotic silliness? Not a united front? Close enough, if other liberals don't repudiate it.

Notice, BTW, in another under-reported happening, Dennis Kucinich went to Syria and made anti-US statements. Why the quiet coverage and no harsh condemnation from liberals? Liberals tend to like to hear anti-US statements. Like your own.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

The "same media" also showed the twin towers falling, over and over. The same media also gave the drumbeat for war at the time, and the same media overwhelmingly allowed Conservative pundits and generals to appear nonstop to tout the war, with almost NO "equal time" for the anti-war pundits.

Of course, you seem to convieniently forget the 80,000 Muslims deported and detained in the post-9/11 climate, with almost no reporting on their plight, then or now. In fact, there are a LOT of anti-Muslim aspects to the MSM absent from your rant, above.

Big surprise.

("FWIW," which isn't very much), considering that you've got all the the Islamophobia you care to stomach, in this thread, here.[/quote]
 
Old 09-17-2007, 02:56 PM   #21
Neil Mick
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and line up the strawmen!

Here come the strawmen!

1. Strawman #1: That anything OBL states has anything to do with the attitudes of Liberals in America.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to grab one handy example out of many that are in the public record: Osama Bin Laden came out in favor of Democrats in the Kerry/Bush election, after the 2006 election (via proxy), and just a few days ago. In each speech, he used the US liberals' talking points as a basis for his talks. The mainstream media went quiet about that support from Osama each time.
I seriously doubt that they were "quiet," but I seriously doubt just about anything you claim about the MSM.

Quote:
Take a look back during the last week and notice the thundering silence. Osama wants to destroy the U.S.... if liberals aren't basically anti-American, why do you think he appeals to them each time?
Is this some sort of trick question? Hello?

When Castro was sick, who did we appeal to? Who did Condi appeal to, when she went on TV? Anti-Castro elements in Cuba.
Does this mean that anti-Castro Cubans are anti-Cuban?

I wouldn't walk around Miami with that sign around my neck, if I were you...

And, who did GB1 appeal to, to rise up against Hussein in '91? That's right...the Shia. So, I suppose by your logic, the Shia are anti-Iraq.

Another (strawman) bites the dust!

Quote:
Why does Chavez appeal to liberals for support? Why did/does Castro appeal to liberals for support.
Strawman #2: The prosiac idea that if you use the same terminology as a political faction, then that faction MUST be on your side.

But, here's where your comparison falls down. Castro and Chavez are simply not comparable to OBL. Did Castro/Chavez plot the 9-11 caper? (No...but I wouldn't put it past you to claim that they did).

Quote:
Why do Islamic terrorists work so hard to feed information through the liberal press?
Strawman #3: If a media outlet prints a story, then they must somehow be in league with their sources.

Quote:
This is rather like the London Times' comments about the BBC bias....
Strawman #4: Unproven (or proven to be false) claims by Mike are as good as the truth, and can be quoted as if they are fact. This creates a circular "echo chamber," similar in effect to Judith Miller's reports, and how Cheney used Miller's article to verify his own claim, on the Sunday talk-shows.

Quote:
this stuff is too well-known to waste time arguing; the truth speaks for itself.
Strawman #4a: Dismiss divergent views as petty, or time-wasting.

Quote:
Take a look at the very decisive unpatriotic comments by MoveOn.org about "General Betray Us", the leader of the American military in time of war when troops lives are endangered.
Strawman #5: Critiques of the Iraq war and the Administration's talking points are tantamount to anti-Americanism.

Quote:
How many of your "ununited" liberal presidential candidates publicly deplored and distanced themselves from this kind of unpatriotic silliness? Not a united front? Close enough, if other liberals don't repudiate it.
Strawman #6: Liberals present a united front.

In reality, of course: Liberals are all over the map.

Quote:
Notice, BTW, in another under-reported happening, Dennis Kucinich went to Syria and made
(unlinked, unquoted)

Quote:
anti-US statements.
(leading to...)

Strawman #7: Spin statements from a Liberal candidate without actually quoting him.

Quote:
Why the quiet coverage and no harsh condemnation from liberals? Liberals tend to like to hear anti-US statements. Like your own.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Strawman #8: Insert usual ad hominem, here.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-17-2007 at 03:00 PM.
 
Old 09-17-2007, 03:03 PM   #22
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But he did say our "short attention spans" and "lack of patience" are what broke that unity and that is not true. It was watching GW Bush waste everything but his own profits (and Cheney's) that destroyed that unity and wasted Americans' patience with his claims to be serving the greater American good.
Ummm, okay...
 
Old 09-17-2007, 03:05 PM   #23
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
No, sorry, it doesn't. In effect, mass media saturation equates to the opposite of free speech, since it pushes out other views, in its rush to give the loudest voice to those with the most lucre.
So, you favor equal time? Isn't that a restriction on free speech?
 
Old 09-17-2007, 03:07 PM   #24
Neil Mick
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
So, you favor equal time? Isn't that a restriction on free speech?
Yes, if I understand what you mean, I favor equal time. But, why do you think it a restriction on free speech?
 
Old 09-17-2007, 03:42 PM   #25
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If I recall correctly, the "unite" was for about 5 days...
Yeah, well at least the "liberals" weren't smirking while they were talking about the dead.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
2. We should not retaliate but should "open a dialogue" with the Islamists.
It wouldn't have been stupider than attacking a nation that had nothing to do with the attacks. We should have attacked Belgium if that was how we were going to do it. We could have beaten Belgium very easily and ignored all this tragic failure--and we would be just as close to achieving our goals!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
3. George Bush was part of a conspiracy that deliberately exploded the WTC towers in order gain power...
Yeah, wellll....he was the one smirking and smiling as he talked about the dead. He's gained more from it than anyone but Haliburton and Osama Bin Laden.

Only thing is, he's about to go down in ignominy, while Haliburton will at least keep their ill-gotten profits and Al Quaeda will be more popular than ever in the muslim world....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So a 5-day "united" wasn't much. We were only a week into the Afghanistan military campaign before the NYTimes was proclaiming it a "quagmire like Vietnam".
But a "quagmire like Viet Nam" is good now, don't you see.

Too bad Bush didn't have the "patience" and "attention span" to concentrate there, where real enemy was....I mean, where Osama Bin Laden IS but moved most of the troops to a quagmire that didn't even have any relevance....

What a disaster George Bush has been for this nation!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 

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