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Old 09-07-2007, 11:28 AM   #151
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I think it's silly to be dismissive of something being a "judo" technique when there are so many shades of gray. Both are based on older jujutsu. What makes something judo vs. aikido (to me) is how it is done, not what trademarked name is used.
Ah but the point here is the technique did not come from older jujutsu. The story is that it came from wrestling. And the technique in that video is Kata Garuma, not the Ganseki Otoshi as others have suggested, which is from Daito Ryu.

I understand were he learnt the technique is not important.

I am not saying you can't do "judo" techniques in "aikido" (note the use of the bunny ears). I do Yoseikan, and we include almost all judo throws. But I am still doing Aikido.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:34 AM   #152
salim
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Blush! Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Raul Rodrigo;188965]
Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post

I haven't badmouthed him. And I have as much trouble as you do with the aiki-bunnies and the "love, peace and harmony" aikidoka who can't do basic waza properly. First you say the combative element in Aikikai has been removed. Then you concede that the combative element remains but it is badmouthed. Which is it? And if it is badmouthed, by some, so what? The truly important thing is that it is still there. Love his methods by all means. Who is stopping you?

R
I use words like some, and almost completely removed, and you interpret that to mean absolute. I think the english is pretty clear. You are letting the gorilla tear you apart.

Forget!
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:40 AM   #153
raul rodrigo
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

You wrote: "The combative nature has been removed."

Seems pretty absolute to me.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:04 PM   #154
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
You wrote: "The combative nature has been removed."

Seems pretty absolute to me.
Where is completely or absolute in the statement?

Analyse the word nature.

The gorilla is behind you attacking from the other side.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:08 PM   #155
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Where is completely or absolute in the statement?

Analyse the word nature.

The gorilla is behind you attacking from the other side.
We can go at this all day: "The combative nature of aikido has been reduced." "Been de-emphasized." Or "not been the major focus of current Akikai practice." "It has been minimized." As opposed to "removed." See what happens when a statement in English has been properly qualified?
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:15 PM   #156
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
We can go at this all day: "The combative nature of aikido has been reduced." "Been de-emphasized." Or "not been the major focus of current Akikai practice." "It has been minimized." As opposed to "removed." See what happens when a statement in English has been properly qualified?
Mentality!!!
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:18 PM   #157
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Yoshi said a similar thing to me, but he said that they weren't separate any more, not that it wasn't Aikido. But you spent a lot more time with him then me.

Some of the original students in the US describe a very Aikido art. These are the people who stopped training when Auge Sensei got there, because they did not like this approach (this information is from David on eBudo, so he should comment further).

Regards,
Yeah I think he pretty much called all aikido/aikijujitsu as aikido but would state the difference if he wanted to be specific.

I heard that Mochizuki used to run a traditional aikibudo class in his dojo but gave it a makeover after he returned from France. Could the US instructor before Auge be from that era?
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:19 PM   #158
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Precisely; you skip back and forth from a complaint about Aikikai waza, which you say now almost completely lack atemi and sutemi waza (not true, as others on this thread have said) to a generalized complaint about some people' objections to combative aikido. The mentality, so to speak. Let them object. What does it have to do with you?
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:22 PM   #159
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Ah but the point here is the technique did not come from older jujutsu. The story is that it came from wrestling.
Regards,
Apocryphally..... But I'm not sure you can take that any more at face value than you can stories of Mifune falling off roofs to practice his ukemi.

CK sensei over at judo forum would be the one to ask on this, if you were so inclined.

In any case, the two techniques in question are not the same, though you may be amused to know versions of kata guruma similar to Ganseki Otoshi exist in judo.

eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FL_YpFNKpnE

There is also a tech is called the dimello (named after the Cuban who specialized in it IIRC) and is a modification of sode tsurikomi goshi. It looks, basically, like a cartwheel with the guy on your back, with his back on your shoulders and his face towards the ceiling.

FWIW
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:25 PM   #160
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

A Aikikai seventh dan Japanese shihan born well after the war and who achieved dan rank in the late 1960s once taught us this beautiful sutemi waza a few years ago. You blend with the yokomen, move forward to grab ukes hips and then do a back roll. And he is not above nailing us with a well timed strike or a nerve hit. When an uke is reluctant to go along with irimi nage, he likes to pinch them with forefinger and thumb on both sides of the mouth. The pain quickly makes them change their mind. No peace and harmony there.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:26 PM   #161
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Yeah I think he pretty much called all aikido/aikijujitsu as aikido but would state the difference if he wanted to be specific.

I heard that Mochizuki used to run a traditional aikibudo class in his dojo but gave it a makeover after he returned from France. Could the US instructor before Auge be from that era?
Yes. I talk about him on the Wikipedia page. His name was Sadayuki Demizu. The interesting thing, is that this is older Yoseikan, and it is described more like Aikido, not Aikibudo.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:29 PM   #162
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
In any case, the two techniques in question are not the same, though you may be amused to know versions of kata guruma similar to Ganseki Otoshi exist in judo.

eg:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FL_YpFNKpnE
The Ganseki Otoshi in Aikido is kata garuma, but with uke's back across your shoulders, not his chest!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:41 PM   #163
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The Ganseki Otoshi in Aikido is kata garuma, but with uke's back across your shoulders, not his chest!

Regards,
No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.

I can't find any clips on Youtube, but IMS you pretty much described the launch position of the Dimelo, as mentioned in my first post.

The throw mechanics are entirely different, however, as the dimelo ends up with something between a cartwheel and a supplex.

It is not a nice throw...at all...but it scores in comps.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:53 PM   #164
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.
Are you talking about the kneeling one? That is the "standard" kata garuma in Yoseikan. I am aware of Mifunes kata garuma (throwing over one shoulder), my instructor does this in his jujutsu.

Regards

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:57 PM   #165
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
No: that first clip shows a variation of kata guruma that may be of interest however.

I can't find any clips on Youtube, but IMS you pretty much described the launch position of the Dimelo, as mentioned in my first post.

The throw mechanics are entirely different, however, as the dimelo ends up with something between a cartwheel and a supplex.

It is not a nice throw...at all...but it scores in comps.
Is the kata guruma in this video Judo throws? I ask some of my Judo buddies and they seem to think so.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:04 PM   #166
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Salim, Salim, Salim. What are we to do with you?

Did you ever learn the lesson, "let sleeping bears lie."

But I guess its fun to read you exchange with the others.

BTW, yes that was a Russian Judo video.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:06 PM   #167
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Is the kata guruma in this video Judo throws? I ask some of my Judo buddies and they seem to think so.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4
At 1:41?

You tell me (can't quite see it)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

(1:12)

Maybe here too
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CUne9Xg55og

EDIT:

If you meant the first clip I posted: yes, those are judo throws
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:11 PM   #168
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Salim, Salim, Salim. What are we to do with you?

Did you ever learn the lesson, "let sleeping bears lie."

But I guess its fun to read you exchange with the others.

BTW, yes that was a Russian Judo video.

Regards,
I was asking for clarification for Hiroshi Isoyama video.
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:12 PM   #169
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Are you talking about the kneeling one? That is the "standard" kata garuma in Yoseikan. I am aware of Mifunes kata garuma (throwing over one shoulder), my instructor does this in his jujutsu.

Regards
No - the one at 0:09 seconds of the Russian judo clip.

It's kata gurmua alright...but it's a little different to the norm.

Kneeling one's are a dime a dozen in judo and sambo
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:15 PM   #170
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I was asking for clarification for Hiroshi Isoyama video.
OH, sorry. Yes those throw are without doubt Kata Garuma, which in japanese arts, comes from wrestling, through judo, hence it would be characterised as a "judo throw" (again note the bunny ears).

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:16 PM   #171
salim
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
OH, sorry. Yes those throw are without doubt Kata Garuma, which in japanese arts, comes from wrestling, through judo, hence it would be characterised as a "judo throw" (again note the bunny ears).

Regards,
Thanks!

Regards
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:18 PM   #172
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
No - the one at 0:09 seconds of the Russian judo clip.

It's kata gurmua alright...but it's a little different to the norm.

Kneeling one's are a dime a dozen in judo and sambo
We in Yoseikan Aikido at my school, call that a Koshi Gaeshi (hip overturn). I think most Aikidoka would characterise that as a koshi waza, since the person is going over the hips. But since when has everyone used the same terms.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:23 PM   #173
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I'm not 100% sure...but maybe 50% sure that I've seen that move on sumo technique page that was mentioned on judoforum a year or so ago. This would preclude it from having western wrestling origins in judo?

I dunno - maybe, maybe not

I really need to go to bed now....so feel free to go check. I may start a thread over there on the topic
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:29 PM   #174
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I'm not 100% sure...but maybe 50% sure that I've seen that move on sumo technique page that was mentioned on judoforum a year or so ago. This would preclude it from having western wrestling origins in judo?

I dunno - maybe, maybe not

I really need to go to bed now....so feel free to go check. I may start a thread over there on the topic
WOW, a SHOULDER WHEEL in sumo!

This is just an opinion, but I would have to say NO WAY!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:56 PM   #175
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
WOW, a SHOULDER WHEEL in sumo!

This is just an opinion, but I would have to say NO WAY!

Regards,
Let's see what turns up

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19873

Maybe something here too

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/index.html

BING BING BING

We have a winner
http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/41.html

Last edited by bob_stra : 09-07-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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