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Old 09-06-2007, 11:28 PM   #126
raul rodrigo
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I never dismissed other kinds of Aikido. I'm not sure where you are reading or if you are creating your own interpretations. Mistakes, yes everyone makes mistakes, including yourself. The mentality is proven from your own.
You wrote: "It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored."

The question is, how well do you know aikido history? Who is ignoring what?
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:56 PM   #127
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
You wrote: "It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored."

The question is, how well do you know aikido history? Who is ignoring what?
The history of Aikido is somewhat obscure. Some sources contradict themselves. Some early students of Ueshiba took away different understands of Aikido and it's application. Perhaps this is one of the many reasons for the different styles of Aikido. Remember Ueshiba didn't write much about Aikido.

Hiroshi Isoyama stated, "The founder's thinking changed over the years between the time he started teaching aikido and later in his life, so naturally the kinds of movements he used also changed. There are very few people who had direct contact with him over the span of several decades, so in many ways it's like that old story of the three blind men all feeling different parts of an elephant and giving different descriptions of what an elephant is. In that sense, I wonder if there is anyone at all who understands O-Sensei's greatness completely."

He also stated, "As you know, O-Sensei never wrote much about aikido in books, although some of this techniques are recorded in Budo. Sometimes I've wondered why he didn't write more about aikido, but on the other hand, I think I might understand: his thinking gradually evolved, and he may have felt that anything he wrote in his younger years would potentially end up being contradictory to his thinking later on. The same is true of his techniques: if he had said anything definitive about them at any point, he might have ended up contradicting himself later on as he evolved."

There is ambiguity with regards to the methodology of Aikido and some of it's history. It's not your way or my way. Aikido is to the person, based on the path they choose. My path is BUDO and it should be respected.
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:08 AM   #128
raul rodrigo
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
There is ambiguity with regards to the methodology of Aikido and some of it's history. It's not your way or my way. Aikido is to the person, based on the path they choose. My path is BUDO and it should be respected.
You have every right to choose your path and none of us should stand in your way. Please understand, though, if we feel compelled to speak up when you say things like "Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed." There is a great deal of technical variation inside the Aikikai, which is a political grouping and not a style, and some Aikikai shihan who were not early students of the Founder are quite combative in their waza. It would be difficult to tell an Ichiro Shibata or Kazuo Chiba, for instance, that their aikido is not effective or combative.

best,

R
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Old 09-07-2007, 06:52 AM   #129
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
You have every right to choose your path and none of us should stand in your way. Please understand, though, if we feel compelled to speak up when you say things like "Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed." There is a great deal of technical variation inside the Aikikai, which is a political grouping and not a style, and some Aikikai shihan who were not early students of the Founder are quite combative in their waza. It would be difficult to tell an Ichiro Shibata or Kazuo Chiba, for instance, that their aikido is not effective or combative.

best,

R
Really I felt compelled to bring up the whole pre WWII Aikido when others and myself on this blog were attacked by those who think that Aikido is for peace and harmony only. So the same goes, when someones tries to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony, then others and myself will take issue with it. Unfortunately it seems to come from those in the Aikikai political arena more often than not. Some people don't want the atemi waza or sutemi waza.

Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBP...elated&search=
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:25 AM   #130
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Again, I am not Aikikai, and yet....I am uncomfortable with how you present some of your ideas. Please don't take it personally...these are just words (bits and bytes, even) after all.

I think people are just pointing out some important facts:

The Aikikai is not a style.

Shihan in the Aikikai teach atemi, judo throws, all kinds of good strong budo.

Even some of the more rough and ready Shihan (Rinjiro Shirata comes to mind) combine budo with Omoto kyo quite nicely. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

One of the things I personally like about my instructor is that he insists that religion and aikido remain separate. He wants people from all cultures and beliefs to feel welcome in his dojo, so he makes it clear aikido is not a religion.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:37 AM   #131
David Orange
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's nice to know that one of the first generation students, persevered the the combative nature of Aikido.
That's true, but I think, as many others have pointed out, that you're making far too much of the difference. Did you notice the very last line in the quote you posted from Isoyama Sensei?

"All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others." --Isoyama Sensei

Personally, I enjoyed training with Mochizuki Sensei and I liked his overall approach very much. It was recognizable as aikido at most points, but in ways it was very unlike the aikido of Morihei Ueshiba or any of his other students.

In short, it's impossible to define aikido--almost anyone's aikido--in simple terms.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-07-2007, 09:40 AM   #132
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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David Orange wrote: View Post
In short, it's impossible to define aikido--almost anyone's aikido--in simple terms.
Hence the reason Aikido is defined in principles

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:55 AM   #133
David Orange
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
You even see him using Judo throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBP...elated&search=
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-07-2007, 10:05 AM   #134
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.
Isn't that Genseki Otoshi! Kata Garuma is a western technique that Kano learnt while in the US I think. He came back to the Kodokan and showed the others, and they said something like "Sensei, what is that?" And he replied "Its a secrete technique." They said, "But Judo has no secrete techniques!" He smiled.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:12 AM   #135
ChrisMoses
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David
Agreed, the only thing that could be construed as a judo throw is kata guruma. If I remember correctly, Isoyama Sensei considers that throw to be a modification of Aikido's koshinage. When he started getting lots of big gaijin in Iwama, he had to shift the load point higher on his back/shoulders to get them off of the ground. Thus the Isoyama kata guruma throw. As David points out, it's also found in Daito Ryu. Isoyama is one of the few Japanese shihan whose first martial art was Aikido. I believe he started Aikido in Iwama while still a child, before he would have had judo in school.

Chris Moses
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:14 AM   #136
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Just checked the cover... It is Genseki Otoshi or Ganseki Otoshi... Rock Drop!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:22 AM   #137
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

David, I think on Mochizuki Kancho's book it says Nihonden Jujitsu Kurou obi aikido. Did he ever refer to his aikido as jujitsu when you were his student? Unno Sensei told me we don't really do aikido but Aiki budo or aiki jujitsu.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:28 AM   #138
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
David, I think on Mochizuki Kancho's book it says Nihonden Jujitsu Kurou obi aikido. Did he ever refer to his aikido as jujitsu when you were his student? Unno Sensei told me we don't really do aikido but Aiki budo or aiki jujitsu.
Yoshi said a similar thing to me, but he said that they weren't separate any more, not that it wasn't Aikido. But you spent a lot more time with him then me.

Some of the original students in the US describe a very Aikido art. These are the people who stopped training when Auge Sensei got there, because they did not like this approach (this information is from David on eBudo, so he should comment further). I have Mochizuki's French book from the 50's (one just sold on eBay for 400 euros) and it is very much Aikido. This book is very similar to what Sensei Hans teaches us, and he says he teaches us what Yoshi taught him.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:33 AM   #139
salim
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Again, I am not Aikikai, and yet....I am uncomfortable with how you present some of your ideas. Please don't take it personally...these are just words (bits and bytes, even) after all.

I think people are just pointing out some important facts:

The Aikikai is not a style.

Shihan in the Aikikai teach atemi, judo throws, all kinds of good strong budo.

Even some of the more rough and ready Shihan (Rinjiro Shirata comes to mind) combine budo with Omoto kyo quite nicely. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

One of the things I personally like about my instructor is that he insists that religion and aikido remain separate. He wants people from all cultures and beliefs to feel welcome in his dojo, so he makes it clear aikido is not a religion.

Best,
Ron
I never said you were Aikikai. I said some people. Again some people in Aikikai, not all, that includes you. I just pointed you to sensei Hiroshi Isoyama and he is affiliated with Aikikai and very combative with his Aikido. Some does not mean all. Not sure how to make some not translate to all to you.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:38 AM   #140
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Hence the reason Aikido is defined in principles
So not by techniques?
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:45 AM   #141
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
So not by techniques?
Not as far as I am concerned. But I have not found anyone here who supports this idea.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:45 AM   #142
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I think you miss the meat of my post. Read carefully, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.

Best,
Ron (no biggie either way)
Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I never said you were Aikikai. I said some people. Again some people in Aikikai, not all, that includes you. I just pointed you to sensei Hiroshi Isoyama and he is affiliated with Aikikai and very combative with his Aikido. Some does not mean all. Not sure how to make some not translate to all to you.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:51 AM   #143
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David
Don't some judoka refer to the kata guruma as a judo move?
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:54 AM   #144
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Don't some judoka refer to the kata guruma as a judo move?
I am trying to clear this confusion up, but no has replied yet!

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:57 AM   #145
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sorry. I watched that video clip twice and didn't see a single judo throw. Would you reference the time points?

I did see him do kata guruma a couple of times, but that is an aikido technique derived from daito ryu. You can see it on the cover of "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" available from Aikido Journal.

So I didn't see any judo at all in that clip.

David
Wikipedia has an article that refers to the kata guruma as a Judo move. Invited by Jigoro Kano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_Guruma
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:05 AM   #146
raul rodrigo
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Salim Shaw;188900]
Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

Criticized by whom? Isoyama is an eighth dan in very good standing in the Aikikai world. At the last IAF Congress in 2004, he was one of the few shihan selected by the IAF to teach a class. He taught a practical, combative version of gokkyo against a tanto. By no means does he have a negative reputation technically, and as for "brutality," well, his ukes in demos still manage to walk off the mat under their own power, without leaving any teeth on the mat. You make it seem as if the combative shihan in the Aikikai world are somehow marginalized because of their approach. Thats not the case. Neither are you being singled out because of your approach, but rather because of your shaky grasp of history. All we are saying is you need to get out a bit more. Ron T, who is a Yoshinkan man who sometimes trains with Aikikai groups, is the right guy to deliver the message that we could all use a broader perspective.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:07 AM   #147
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Wikipedia has an article that refers to the kata guruma as a Judo move. Invited by Jigoro Kano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_Guruma
I am looking for my reference, but I am pretty sure he got it from wrestling in the US.

But it is a mute point, "Kata Garuma" is a "Judo" technique, and other technique people are refering to is Ganseki Otoshi.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #148
salim
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Raul Rodrigo;188957]
Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Hiroshi Isoyama a well respected sensei in Aikikai affiliate, is criticized by some because of his perceived rough and brutal approach to Aikido. You even see him using Judo throws. Some people take issue with his approach and he was taught directly from Ueshiba. Again it's a mentality issue, some wanting to tie down Aikido to just peace and harmony.

Criticized by whom? Isoyama is an eighth dan in very good standing in the Aikikai world. At the last IAF Congress in 2004, he was one of the few shihan selected by the IAF to teach a class. He taught a practical, combative version of gokkyo against a tanto. By no means does he have a negative reputation technically, and as for "brutality," well, his ukes in demos still manage to walk off the mat under their own power, without leaving any teeth on the mat. You make it seem as if the combative shihan in the Aikikai world are somehow marginalized because of their approach. Thats not the case. Neither are you being singled out because of your approach, but rather because of your shaky grasp of history. All we are saying is you need to get out a bit more. Ron T, who is a Yoshinkan man who sometimes trains with Aikikai groups, is the right guy to deliver the message that we could all use a broader perspective.
Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on the point. The obscurity of history is a mute point. Contradictions about Aikido are all over the place. Ambiguity is everywhere regarding the methodology of Aikido. People make accusations about Hiroshi Isoyama in Youtube. The person who post the video indicates, " Isoyama Sensei is rough and brutal." Which is not true at all.
I introduce some Aikidoist to his clip and they bad mouth his method of Aikido. I'm addressing a mentality here. You have missed the 800lbs gorilla charging at you. I love his methods.

Forget the subject!
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:22 AM   #149
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I am looking for my reference, but I am pretty sure he got it from wrestling in the US.

But it is a mute point, "Kata Garuma" is a "Judo" technique, and other technique people are refering to is Ganseki Otoshi.

Regards,
Many schools teach koshinage the same as OGoshi,, Aiki-otoshi as Sukui Nage, kokyu nage as Sumi Otoshi...

I think it's silly to be dismissive of something being a "judo" technique when there are so many shades of gray. Both are based on older jujutsu. What makes something judo vs. aikido (to me) is how it is done, not what trademarked name is used.

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Old 09-07-2007, 11:27 AM   #150
raul rodrigo
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Salim Shaw;188962]
Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post

Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on the point. The obscurity of history is a mute point. Contradictions about Aikido are all over the place. Ambiguity is everywhere regarding the methodology of Aikido. People make accusations about Hiroshi Isoyama in Youtube. The person who post the video indicates, " Isoyama Sensei is rough and brutal." Which is not true at all.
I introduce some Aikidoist to his clip and they bad mouth his method of Aikido. I'm addressing a mentality here. You have missed the 800lbs gorilla charging at you. I love his methods.

Forget the subject!
I haven't badmouthed him. And I have as much trouble as you do with the aiki-bunnies and the "love, peace and harmony" aikidoka who can't do basic waza properly. First you say the combative element in Aikikai has been removed. Then you concede that the combative element remains but it is badmouthed. Which is it? And if it is badmouthed, by some, so what? The truly important thing is that it is still there. Love his methods by all means. Who is stopping you?

R
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