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Old 09-16-2007, 02:25 PM   #226
Don_Modesto
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?
I think most people "preach" not to lift, but then they turn around and lift.

Check it out. Doesn't Kondo do this in that instructional DVD of his with the complete 1-2-3 KAJO? He breaks during Amano's demo and instructs. Derek Steel is interpreting and tells us not to lift, and then when Kondo goes fast, he lifts. (Is it only me?)

I seem to recall this with lots of other teachers, too.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:21 AM   #227
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
I think most people "preach" not to lift, but then they turn around and lift.

Check it out. Doesn't Kondo do this in that instructional DVD of his with the complete 1-2-3 KAJO? He breaks during Amano's demo and instructs. Derek Steel is interpreting and tells us not to lift, and then when Kondo goes fast, he lifts. (Is it only me?)

I seem to recall this with lots of other teachers, too.
As I said before, I think this is a safety aspect. I noticed you said "Kondo goes fast... he lifts." This kind of proves the point that it was probably for safety. Well, I think so

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:21 PM   #228
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Interesting points on the lifting during kotegaeshi.

Though instructed not to lift too high normally, I've found that when applied against serious resistance, the larger the arc the more effective the kotegaeshi, especially if Tori is the smaller person.

Just an observation.
LC

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Old 09-18-2007, 01:01 PM   #229
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Though instructed not to lift too high normally, I've found that when applied against serious resistance, the larger the arc the more effective the kotegaeshi, especially if Tori is the smaller person.
I find about the opposite. The larger the motion, the more time UKE has to escape. When I drop UKE quickly into a hole, such as the rear SHIKAKU in KOTE GAESHI TENKAN, they are half thrown before we even get to the wrist twisting.

That is, I find that folks resist the twisting and won't be led into SHIKAKU from that. OTOH, from a position of very poor balance, they can't fight the twisting.

(I saw this, the primacy of KUZUSHI, recently teaching KAITEN NAGE from wrist grab. My students were doing this fancy little curlycue after the TENKAN with their hands ending up off to the side. UKE wasn't really retaining balance, per se, NAGE was handing it back to them. When they cut their hand low, back to their own center, however, UKE was sprawling immediately and the KAITEN NAGE was an afterthought, as I see with some of the older SHIHAN (watch some Yamaguchi vids; you'll see what I'm talking about in the Expo demos of Ikeda, Gleason and Stickles, too). The SHIHAN don't really seem to have decided on a technique sometimes until after KUZUSHI.)

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Old 09-19-2007, 02:01 AM   #230
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.
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Old 09-23-2007, 03:56 PM   #231
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.
I've found this as well. That stretching effect also helps the throw to start affecting the body and posture well before the wrist is actually twisted.

Some of my Jujutsu pals use the short tight twisting movement but under full resistance unless the person is much bigger than I it simply does not work.

LC

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Old 09-24-2007, 02:40 AM   #232
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I guess this is true. But I still like to think of the point that Kote Gaeshi is not really a throw, if done full speed full force, you are just going to smash the wrist, resulting in them going down.

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Graham Wild
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:57 AM   #233
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Why are they going to go down if you smash their wrist? And: Are you going to be able to smash their wrist if you dont got kuzushi?

I tend to think that kotegeashi is more of a drop than a throw.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:12 AM   #234
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Why are they going to go down if you smash their wrist? And: Are you going to be able to smash their wrist if you dont got kuzushi?

I tend to think that kotegeashi is more of a drop than a throw.
Well I don't think the larger or smaller movement really relates to kuzushi but I do believe that kotegeashi will not work unless balance is first broken. This is especially true when you are dealing with an opponent who knows all about kotegeishi and does not want to go down.

The large or small movement that is part of the actual throw depends very much on the body positioning achieved with the kuzushi and also on relative size of the tori and uke. I think the ideal situation is small movement at hip level but if they are two close this might not be the best way.

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I find that the larger motion makes it easier to maintain kuzushi and also that the "stretch" of the larger motion helps to keep me out of range for ukes fists.
Yes I like this statement especially maintain kuzushi. Not sure if this is what Peter meant but to effect kuzushi with the kotegeashi itself is next to impossible.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:27 AM   #235
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
to effect kuzushi with the kotegeashi itself is next to impossible.
Quite true.

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Old 09-24-2007, 10:12 AM   #236
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

In this thread we have previously discussed the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body. So kuzushi is not the issue.

The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!

Graham Wild
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Old 09-24-2007, 11:38 AM   #237
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk. The damage happens but any "stopping" effect is minor once they're under the influence since the pain receptors don't have a distracting effect.

My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker. Outside of those with chemically induced abnormal tolerances to pain, there are also very many self defence and martial art systems that train one to compartmentalize and mentally move past things like pain until the immediate threat is dispatched.

In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.

Just some thoughts.

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Old 09-24-2007, 12:07 PM   #238
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk....My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker....In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.
Really true. But the particular thing Graham mentioned was " the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body". This is applied when tori is turning and leading uke around him. Mochizuki Sensei didn't like to depend on uke following and he would "bar" the elbow against his ribcage as he turned to force uke to follow. He would even sometimes demonstrate "jerking" or "snapping" the elbow against the ribcage to encourage uke's compliance, which was usually eagerly given at that point. And this set-up could also be used for other of the outward-turning arm techniques (soto nejiri ho) such as ude garami, as well, if they began with tori's full body turn-around.

On the other hand, we didn't usually practice the arm-barring against the ribs during keiko at the hombu. We were aware of it but since it was so hard on uke, we kept it in reserve for actual self-defense applicaiton.

But as far as the kote gaeshi technique, I think you need good kuzushi before applying that to make it work as it should, and that the kote gaeshi should be applied at hip level with uke's arm and stance well extended.

FWIW.

David

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Old 09-24-2007, 12:24 PM   #239
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming.
Toby Threadgill told the story a few years ago of doing a finger-lock on "Big" Tony Alvarez. He asked Tony if he had the lock, Tony replied that he did, but then smiled and said, "...but I'd lose that finger to kill ya..."

I also recall the story of a certain impetuous youth who, when challenged by Bernie Lau to get out of one of his finger locks, dislocated his own finger and popped him.

Pain compliance is great, but always works best when part of a movement which affects the body structure. Kuzushi is da bomb, doesn't matter if it's judo, jujutsu or aikido/budo.

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Old 09-24-2007, 12:50 PM   #240
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Toby Threadgill told the story a few years ago of doing a finger-lock on "Big" Tony Alvarez. He asked Tony if he had the lock, Tony replied that he did, but then smiled and said, "...but I'd lose that finger to kill ya..."
Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques, I guess, but I used to know a little man in Birmingham who could make anybody dance with his finger techniques. Anyway, I never saw anyone who could say anything but "Okay! Okay! Okay!" when he got them. That was Alex Marshall, a real phenomenon. I was never able to see him "get" the technique, but I never saw him fail to get it. And when he did, the recipient always lost structure, balance, pride and dignity in complying with Mr. Marshall, who would stand there casually, saying "What's wrong? What's wrong?" and the other guy would be jumping around saying, "Okay! Okay! Okay!"

There must have been some people who could stand his technique, but I never saw one. And he was not yoseikan, by the way, but just a general jujutsuka. Wish he was still with us.

David

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Old 09-24-2007, 01:27 PM   #241
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques, I guess, but I used to know a little man in Birmingham who could make anybody dance with his finger techniques. Anyway, I never saw anyone who could say anything but "Okay! Okay! Okay!" when he got them. That was Alex Marshall, a real phenomenon. I was never able to see him "get" the technique, but I never saw him fail to get it. And when he did, the recipient always lost structure, balance, pride and dignity in complying with Mr. Marshall, who would stand there casually, saying "What's wrong? What's wrong?" and the other guy would be jumping around saying, "Okay! Okay! Okay!"

There must have been some people who could stand his technique, but I never saw one. And he was not yoseikan, by the way, but just a general jujutsuka. Wish he was still with us.

David
Wow, small world.

The Jujutsu style I belong to and instruct is Mr. Marshall's system, Akayama Ryu. My primary instructor is the person he left in charge of the system, Sensei Mark Barlow.

What you said above is quite interesting since it is in Akayama Ryu that I learnt that when dealing with pain one should compartmentalize, focus, move through the pain and take out the attacker. If this means dislocating something or breaking something to get the advantage, then so be it. It is one of the methods we use to counter most Aiki waza joint locks if the technique is already applied. This really aids in training the mind how to focus the body on its objective instead of becoming distracted. I've applied this sort of imperturbable mind concept to our Aikido training as well, hence my earlier post.

I've heard many stories of Mr. Marshall's prowess. The man was a legend. I guess it is not surprising since one of the methods he studied deeply was Tomiki Aikido under Karl Geis. He was also inheritor of a Japanese koryu jujutsu method if I am not mistaken. But again, if the person was dancing with the finger lock then their mind was already taken by Mr. Marshall's waza and they were unwilling or unable to work through the pain and find a counter. Of course, this may have just made things worse for them.

Interesting points.

LC

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Old 09-24-2007, 02:53 PM   #242
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
This depends quite a bit on the person receiving the joint lock. I've either witnessed or gotten first hand accounts of folks who have dislocated joints and even shattered bones and keep coming. These folks range from those amped up on PCP or adrenaline to people who are very very drunk. The damage happens but any "stopping" effect is minor once they're under the influence since the pain receptors don't have a distracting effect.

My only point is that one should not depend on pain compliance or destruction of something like a wrist to stop a serious attacker. Outside of those with chemically induced abnormal tolerances to pain, there are also very many self defence and martial art systems that train one to compartmentalize and mentally move past things like pain until the immediate threat is dispatched.

In the case of kuzushi, if the person is at least immobilized on the ground (one result of being taken completely off balance with something like kotegaeshi) one has many more options to end the conflict imho.

Just some thoughts.
Yes Larry! Hence the reason I said in a self defence situation. It is quite pointless to say pain compliance won't work on people high on PCP. Because it is just LOGICAL COMMON SENSE!

The fact is that pain will make the majority of people comply. If the persons intention is more then just to cause you pain, then, you should be doing more than causing them pain. You don't hold someone who is trying to kill you in a pain compliance pin! No one should need to be told that!

However, someone who just wants to shove you around, maybe at something like a party or sporting event, then a finger lock, will be perfect. I have done this. After all, you don't want to hurt someone you know through friends.

With regards to the Kote Gaeshi damaging the wrist, the ideal application of this is group situation, involving a knife etc. This may then serve as a deterrent to the others.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 09-24-2007 at 03:00 PM.

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Old 09-24-2007, 03:48 PM   #243
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Wow, small world.

The Jujutsu style I belong to and instruct is Mr. Marshall's system, Akayama Ryu. My primary instructor is the person he left in charge of the system, Sensei Mark Barlow.
Really? It is a small world. The lady I bought my house from is from Trinidad. She'd been living up here with her husband, whom she met in Trinidad because he was working in construction management and she came back up with him. A few years after he died, she sold her house (to me) and moved back to Trinidad.

But how did you get involved with Akayama Ryu?

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I've heard many stories of Mr. Marshall's prowess. The man was a legend.
Even when he was alive! He was well known in these parts, especially among police officers and all judo and aikido people. Not so well known among the general karate set, but all the old-timers and hard-liners knew him and respected him. There was no one like him. He was the most impressive non-Asian martial artist I ever met.

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
...if the person was dancing with the finger lock then their mind was already taken by Mr. Marshall's waza and they were unwilling or unable to work through the pain and find a counter. Of course, this may have just made things worse for them.
As I said, I could never see him setting up the technique and I could never prevent him from applying it. And I never saw anyone who looked like they were even thinking of trying to think of a way to get out of it. They just complied.

But at the same time, he would have you laughing because he would be laughing. And you didn't feel that he was laughing at you but encouraging you to keep a positive mind. And that made him loveable, so you didn't mind taking those techniques. It reminded me of Kyoichi Murai, now tenth dan and head of Seifukai--the "old yoseikan" group at the old yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka. Murai Sensei often laughed like that as he did spectacular things. And he was even smaller than Mr. Marshall. Two very spectacular and admirable men.

Best to you.

David

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Old 09-27-2007, 01:47 PM   #244
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Yes Larry! Hence the reason I said in a self defence situation. It is quite pointless to say pain compliance won't work on people high on PCP. Because it is just LOGICAL COMMON SENSE!
Not sure why you require caps to get your point across, but the reality is that common sense is not as common as some may think. Are you saying that one does not get into self defence situations with people who are intoxicated?
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You don't hold someone who is trying to kill you in a pain compliance pin! No one should need to be told that!
Why not? I thought the philosophy espoused in Aikido is to protect the attacker. The "kill him if he tries to kill me" is a fear-driven response that is the antithesis of Aikido imho (although it may be a necessary one sometimes). If one has the level of skill to control the situation I don't see why one should not. It would make for interesting post-assault legalities when asked why one decided to use excessive force if they had the situation under control at a certain point. Many talk about killing in "self defence" without realizing the ramifications involved at many levels. This is part of why martial arts are not always the best means of studying actual self defence, unless ones instructor can impart knowledge in these areas also.
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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
someone who just wants to shove you around, maybe at something like a party or sporting event, then a finger lock, will be perfect. I have done this. After all, you don't want to hurt someone you know through friends.
I'd think if one were dealing with a friend one with sufficient training would not respond at all and simply walk away. What you describe above is not a self defence situation requireing a direct physical response imho.

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With regards to the Kote Gaeshi damaging the wrist, the ideal application of this is group situation, involving a knife etc. This may then serve as a deterrent to the others.
Interesting..

LC

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Old 09-27-2007, 02:03 PM   #245
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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But how did you get involved with Akayama Ryu?
Hi David,

Actually Aikiweb is partially to blame. Here is where I first "met" Sensei Barlow. We have a common thread, possessing dan grade in Shodokan Aikido and having links to the J.A.A. He and other high level yudansha visited Trinidad some years ago, unknowingly invited by one of our local McDojo instructors. Let's just say that their Jujutsu seminar at our Aikido dojo sparked my interest even more in JJ (at the time I was considering training in a JJ style anyway) and it offered them the opportunity to train with some "authentic" budoka as well. We've been great friends ever since. The system is one of the best I've come across and the Aiki waza blends nicely with my Aikido.
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Even when he was alive! He was well known in these parts, especially among police officers and all judo and aikido people. Not so well known among the general karate set, but all the old-timers and hard-liners knew him and respected him. There was no one like him. He was the most impressive non-Asian martial artist I ever met.
He was. I still get the old war stories from Sensei Barlow and I keep remembering wishing to be a fly on a wall whenever MR. Marshall got "challenged".
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As I said, I could never see him setting up the technique and I could never prevent him from applying it. And I never saw anyone who looked like they were even thinking of trying to think of a way to get out of it. They just complied.
To me, this is one of the elusive qualities of good Aiki waza. It just happens to you and you don't actually understand how you got into that situation since there is nothing one detects to defend against.
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But at the same time, he would have you laughing because he would be laughing. And you didn't feel that he was laughing at you but encouraging you to keep a positive mind. And that made him loveable, so you didn't mind taking those techniques. It reminded me of Kyoichi Murai, now tenth dan and head of Seifukai--the "old yoseikan" group at the old yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka. Murai Sensei often laughed like that as he did spectacular things. And he was even smaller than Mr. Marshall. Two very spectacular and admirable men.
Agreed. I've often found that the guys with the most skill to really hurt you at will are often the most relaxed, cheery, happy people around. It makes sense - without fear there is no tension and ill will towards another I guess.

Best to you as well.

LC

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Old 09-28-2007, 05:21 AM   #246
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
In this thread we have previously discussed the kuzushi used in Yoseikan's Kote Gaeshi, that is the leverage of the elbow against the body. So kuzushi is not the issue.

The shock to an attacker, in a self defence situation, due to the sevier damage to the wrist would result in some type of after effect. When I disolcated my shoulder, I went done. It was one of the most painful things I have ever experienced!
Timing is very important and I think its best to manipulate the wrist when your opponent's hand is relaxed. Although we have the elbow leverage in kotegaeshi we try to also pull or guide the opponent so he is off balance.

I had a student a few years back who busted up his shoulder on a poorly done hip throw. From his screams he definitely was in a lot of pain. I think in a self defense situation a full power throw onto a hard surface should stop most attackers.
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:27 AM   #247
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Mochizuki Sensei didn't much care for pressure point techniques because "they work on some people but they don't work at all on others." Which is like the finger techniques.

David
This is very interesting because Unno sensei always taught pressure points. I wonder if he picked them up from Sanno Sensei or Murai Sensei. Was there much variety back then in the hombu or did everyone learn the same thing?
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:05 AM   #248
Flintstone
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The ganseki otoshi is a horrible technique to fall from. We have different ganseki otoshi in Yoseikan Aikido at my school. It is a shoulder throw with boths arms barred across the throwing shoulder. So it is like gyaku seoi and seoi nage together. Have you ever done this throw?
We do this throw as part of our kihon in Roland Hernaez's Nihon Taijutsu. But then again, Nihon Taijutsu is a descendant of Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I don't know the name of the technique (maybe you can help me here), but it's certainly not Ganseki Otoshi. What I understand for Ganseki Otoshi is the Iwama Ryu version of it, with uke's back laying on tori's shoulders.

Best,
Alex.
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:58 PM   #249
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
We do this throw as part of our kihon in Roland Hernaez's Nihon Taijutsu. But then again, Nihon Taijutsu is a descendant of Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I don't know the name of the technique (maybe you can help me here), but it's certainly not Ganseki Otoshi. What I understand for Ganseki Otoshi is the Iwama Ryu version of it, with uke's back laying on tori's shoulders.

Best,
Alex.
I think you're referring to Yama Arashi.

Daito Ryu Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcNcRjqr9k

And Aikido Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=A7YUO1WBYgg

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Old 09-29-2007, 07:57 AM   #250
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Wink Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think you're referring to Yama Arashi.
Actually the waza you linked here also exists in Nihon Taijutsu's kihon and we call it Yama Arashi too.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Daito Ryu Ganseki Otoshi looks like this:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcNcRjqr9k
Yes, this is the technique I was refering to in our kihon. And performed in the very same manner (except for the lack of kicking atemi in the Daito Ryu video and that NTJ version ends throwing uke over tori's back - kind of scary!).

Thanks, Demetrio, for the link to Daito Ryu. I should have remembered watching it in the Hiden Mokuroku videos.
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