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Old 08-27-2007, 03:50 PM   #1
Don_Modesto
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Wha' da..."

...nabe?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L0dF...elated&search=

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:51 PM   #2
crbateman
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Re: Wha' da..."

No disrespect, but I just can't fathom some demos... Hard to watch, even if you been there and done that...
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:08 PM   #3
Ivan Sekularac
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Re: Wha' da..."

My opinion only but... no way this is for real... this is BS if I ever saw one... this is the reason other people claim that Aikido doesn't work...

If somebody is running at you, unless you use firearms, throw something at him or avoid him he will make physical contact with you...

No one can wave and get his opponent down... O'Sensei couldn't do it and no other Aikidoka can do it as well... maybe Obi Wan Kenobi can do it but he is in the Galaxy far, far away...

Last edited by Ivan Sekularac : 08-27-2007 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:43 PM   #4
raul rodrigo
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Re: Wha' da..."

"The Force can have a strong influence on the weakminded."
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:59 PM   #5
Mark Uttech
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Re: Wha' da..."

Hopefully Youtube is a shortlived fad.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:08 PM   #6
Mark Freeman
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Ivan Sekularac wrote: View Post
My opinion only but... no way this is for real... this is BS if I ever saw one... this is the reason other people claim that Aikido doesn't work...

If somebody is running at you, unless you use firearms, throw something at him or avoid him he will make physical contact with you...

No one can wave and get his opponent down... O'Sensei couldn't do it and no other Aikidoka can do it as well... maybe Obi Wan Kenobi can do it but he is in the Galaxy far, far away...
There are plenty of video clips of O Sensei dispensing of ukes with no touch. A particular demo of him seemingly bouncing a uke straight back from a running push to the chest with little or no touch, has been discussed at length on these fora before.

It is very difficult to completely disbelieve something you haven't experienced yourself. I have been on the recieving end of aikido teachers that can do similar aikido to that as seen in the demo. I wouldn't consider myself to be someone who would spend 15 years persuing something fake.

I practice aikido as a search for the 'truth in the moment. Can I maintain compete mind/body/spirit co-ordination throught each encounter / exercise. Some aikidoka lean towards the 'physical' aspects of aikido, their movements become clean and very efficient, their control precise and powerfull, I see this in the yoshinkan practitioners I see on vid, much of which I find really impressive. Some aikidoka explore the mind/ki side of aikido, their practice is softer, more co-operative, more leading, more following, it leads to the kind of aikido that the more physically favoured see as 'less effective'. But I'd hardly call someone like Tohei sensei 'not effective' and he was the biggest proponent of the 'ki' side of aikido.

I'd be interested to hear from any akidoka who have taken ukemi (or knows of someone who has) for this particular sensei (Watanabe?), to give us a more personal perspective.

I agree with Clark though, it's hard to watch, even if you've been there and done that

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:39 PM   #7
David Humm
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Re: Wha' da..."

I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:39 PM   #8
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Wha' da..."

Devil's advocate...

practice for tracking and responsiveness? Mental connection is important to work on as much as physical connection. Recently I heard sensei Barrish describe the importance of neurological development...maybe that's the intent here.
If the explicit intent is to force someone to move through some "force push," like some marionette on a string, then I'd be steadfastly skeptical. But if the point is to connect mentally and still move with responsiveness and balance, then how is it any different than practicing rolls or breakfalls by yourself?
...my two bits...
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:41 PM   #9
Keith Larman
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Re: Wha' da..."

Well, I've found myself laying down after something seemingly silly a few times as well. I think it is important to realize that some aspects of aikido are about "leading the mind" and there are lots of "mind games" you can play to work a person. I've been on the receiving end a few times. One of our sensei in particular is really good as very subtle leads and diversions. That's all fair game IMHO and in many ways essential to good aikido. Mind games. Unsettling not only their physical balance but their mental balance as well.

But at some point cooperative training becomes much more like group hypnosis and people start to do all sorts of really odd stuff like that in the video. The problem is that these sort of prolonged, long distance, no touch, make 'em levitate and flip themselves over kinda stuff is just way too much. But maybe a better way to look at that is that they're showing what long term mind games are like. Do it enough and you start to believe it...

Regardless -- when I see videos like that my first reaction is "send me in, coach!". And if the person doing that can throw someone from outside the group giving a sincere attack that way, well, that would be just amazing.

But like I said, I've felt an atemi coming and reacted defensively to it just to find it really wasn't there and was more of a hand wave. I've also found myself overextending to "get that target" and realized way too late I'd "fallen for it" and I never got it. So it became a sort of no-touch throw.

Beyond that I've yet to feel the kind of stuff those videos seem to imply. Maybe I don't hang out with the right Jedi...

All opinions are solely mine. Blame me.

And I have that link to the fella getting a "ass-handing" somewhere here on my system if you need it...

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Old 08-27-2007, 06:45 PM   #10
David Humm
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Re: Wha' da..."

Here are two links on YT

The first is the challange this guy accepted

The second is of him in his own dojo, footage from 1min,12sec is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:45 PM   #11
Keith Larman
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Re: Wha' da..."

Found the one I had. Yanagi Ryuken is his name. Same sort of wave the hand ki master. Here he is with a karate fella. The irony is that he made the karate fella sign a release in case he was injured.

Kind of a "my karma ran over your dogma" moment I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgVm...elated&search=

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Old 08-27-2007, 06:45 PM   #12
Mashu
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link
That was someone else.

http://www.daitouryu-aikidou.jp/

Last edited by Mashu : 08-27-2007 at 06:54 PM. Reason: added link
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:46 PM   #13
Keith Larman
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
Here are two links on YT

The first is the challange this guy accepted

The second is of him in his own dojo, footage from 1min,12sec is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc
Geez, you're fast. Posted just before me.

Same fella in mine as in yours. Not sure if it is the same guy as in the original video, though.

Regardless, that's what I call a reality check. Painful to watch.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 08-27-2007 at 06:47 PM. Reason: clarification

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Old 08-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #14
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link
I think that was a "kiai master" named Ryukerin? I've seen him listed as both "aikido" and "kiai."

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #15
David Humm
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Re: Wha' da..."

Keith,

Off topic but, one of my students bought some tsuba from you recently, just wanted to say how excellent they are. I am already trying to bum one of them off him lol

Back on topic >>
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:51 PM   #16
Don_Modesto
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Re: Wha' da..."

Evidently, Arikawa refused to take part in Honbu's annual demonstrations because of stuff like this.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:53 PM   #17
David Humm
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote: View Post
That was someone else.
That may well be but, whom ever... its from the same stable of whatever you want to call it.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:08 PM   #18
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Wha' da..."

The one class I took at Aikikai Hombu was taught by Watanabe Sensei, and during that session he never taught the "no-touch" throws that were shown on the video. Just good solid basics the whole class.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:09 PM   #19
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
That may well be but, whom ever... its from the same stable of whatever you want to call it.
Perhaps, but one challenged someone to a competition and the other didn't. I'm still not convinced there were identical assumptions involved between the two ki-practicioners. Maybe you can make the argument that it's a poor way to practice, but it looks a lot like the way I practice alone when i use visualizations to imagine how to move as uke. Responsiveness is crucial to aikido, as i understand it, and I would view this as sensitivity training without knowing what the actual claims were.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 08-27-2007, 07:20 PM   #20
Chris Li
 
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Evidently, Arikawa refused to take part in Honbu's annual demonstrations because of stuff like this.
Arikawa always watched the Watanabe demonstrations with a scowl on his face. To his credit, Watanabe goes up and does his thing every year even though you can hear the laughter when he walks out.

When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2007, 08:22 PM   #21
Ivan Sekularac
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Arikawa always watched the Watanabe demonstrations with a scowl on his face. To his credit, Watanabe goes up and does his thing every year even though you can hear the laughter when he walks out.

When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.

Best,

Chris
If the guy is truly competent Aikidoka and still resorts to this BS makes it even worst... shameful in fact...
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:20 PM   #22
David Orange
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Dave Humm wrote: View Post
I think this is the same guy who accepted the challenge from a MMA guy and got his ass handed to him, I'll see if I can find the link
I don't think it's the same guy, Dave, but he does bear a fairly strong resemblance. As I watched the clip, I was thinking, "Hmmmm....this is where we need that MMA guy to come in."

And I looked at the "Why is there so much confusion about aikido?" thread right after viewing that video clip and thought, "There's your answer."

To give Watanabe the benefit of the doubt, I once decided to really try out an old Japanese teacher once and grabbed him from behind by both shoulders--"For his good and mine," I thought. "Can't let this hypnosis stuff go unchallenged."

Long story short, he threw me without touching me--but I had a good, firm grip of him.

Still, all said and done, I don't see that kind of stuff really working. If he could really do to me some of that stuff that he does in the clip, I'd bow to him very willlingly. But I don't think he could do it without an extremely cooperative uke.

If he can, we've also answered the question, "Will anyone ever surpass Morihei Ueshiba?"

I just don't think he has.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-27-2007, 09:34 PM   #23
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Wha' da..."

It's entertaining to see the people here trying to defend this guy and give him the benefit of the doubt.

There is nothing to be proved. No "Don't bash till you try". You don't need to ask the uke what really happened, or attempt to recall some story when you "thought" you were thrown without being touched. The debunked the kiai guys, they done it to the Yellow Bamboo guys, nothing more really needs to be done. For as long as video footage has existed, it never has been possible. No one has done it.

It's kinda simple...it's just too simple, that's why people still think there's hope, or maybe there's something we don't know yet. I mean, it was fairly obvious it's no mystery just by listening to the laughter in the background during the video.

He might otherwise be a good Aikidoka, I don't know. Why he would bother with this demonstration, I have no idea.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-27-2007 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:40 PM   #24
David Orange
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Re: Wha' da..."

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
When he's not doing the magic stuff Watanabe is, IMO, just fine - solid Aikido (just like another poster said). I actually used to enjoy taking his classes - the exaggeration makes the angles and lines very clear, and it's a great show, although I wouldn't want to do it every day.
I once saw a demo by a group that was affiliated with Mochizuki Sensei's Nihon Budo Kokusai Renmei, which formed after he broke way from IMAF (Kokusai Budo Renmei).

The group I saw was called "En Ryu," I think, and the headmaster did a demo rather like Watanabe's. When uke would approach, the tori would gesture with his hand and uke would fall. Tori would sweep his hand toward uke's knee and uke's knee would "collapse" and he would fall. Tori would geture toward uke's head and he would fall, etc.

I thought it pretty embarrassing. The only justification I could imagine for it was as a very general indication that "take out the knee and he falls, take out the head and he falls."

But in a world of serious budo training, how necessary is that?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:00 PM   #25
Ivan Sekularac
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Re: Wha' da..."

I would have bought it if it was presented as some sort of no contact practice, like shadow boxing, but this is clearly supposed to look like self defense...
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