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Old 12-02-2001, 11:14 AM   #1
tedehara
 
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Question Aiki-jitsu

Sokaku Takeda taught Morihei Ueshiba Daito Ryu Aiki-jitsu. It was Ueshiba's personal expression of this martial art which became Aikido. Both men agreed that Ueshiba's art was so different than Daito Ryu, it should be given a new name.

Today, there are many people practicing Aiki-jitsu. Some also practice Aikido. Which brings about this question:

Should a person practice Aiki-jitsu to try and gain some insight about Aikido? Or should a person just practice Aikido?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 12-02-2001, 11:43 AM   #2
Duarh
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Should a person practice Thai-boxing? Should a person do karate? Should a person go to Japan to learn aikido? Answers to should questions vary from person to person and whether one should study aiki-jitsu, IMO, can't be a general 'person' question.

Have no idea what aiki-jitsu looks like, myself, but I'm sure enough you could learn something from it, especially as it has certainly inspired Ueshiba. Then again, you could learn stuff from Hapkido, TKD, Kung Fu, etc. there's no should about it. Study aikido if you like. Study aiki-jitsu if you want to. See what comes of it.

Tell me too

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Old 12-02-2001, 12:56 PM   #3
Edward
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Aiki-Jutsu is a vague word nowadays with multitudes of dojos teaching different things. I have the impression though that most of the styles in the USA are quite violent. However, the real Daito-Ryu training is not violent. I have seen demonstrations and they are very beautiful. This school has several thousands of techniques grouped into 5 categories (if my memory is correct). Since it is almost impossible for a normal human being to master all these techniques, Osensei selected only one group of techniques as the foundation of his Aikido. As a matter of fact, demonstrations by Daito-Ryu masters specialised in this group of techniques looks almost exactly like Aikido. Moreover, they too do not believe in competition. Unfortunately, it seems that the only authentic schools of this art are in Japan.
Please forgive any inaccuracies since all this information is from memory. I'm too lazy to look up the websites again :-)
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Old 12-02-2001, 12:59 PM   #4
Edward
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You can check out their official website:

http://www.daito-ryu.org
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Old 12-02-2001, 02:14 PM   #5
Kami
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Question Aikido and Aikijujutsu

Hello!
Just to clear up some points :
Ted Ehara said :
"Sokaku Takeda taught Morihei Ueshiba Daito Ryu Aiki-jitsu. It was Ueshiba's personal expression of the art which became Aikido. Both men agreed that Ueshiba's art was so different from Daito Ryu, it should be given a new name."

KAMI : Morihei O didn't learn all of Aikijujutsu. Ueshiba learned a bit more than the Shoden and his certificate from Takeda Dai Sensei was just the one known as KYOJU DAIIRI (Assistant Teacher, in the absence of the Master). There was no agreement between the men (Takeda and Ueshiba). They break apart querulously, after some time, and not having the Menkyo Kaiden(License of Complete Knowledge), Ueshiba couldn't teach Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu,his former master being alive.
So Ueshiba changed the name of what he was doing (Aikibujutsu, Aioi Ryu, Kobubudo, Aikibudo), not because it was so much different from what he learned but because he couldn't teach it.
Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.

Edward :
"This school has several thousands of techniques grouped into 5 categories (if my memory is correct). Since it is almost impossible for a normal human being to master all these techniques, Osensei selected only one group of techniques as the foundation of his Aikido. As a matter of fact, demonstrations by Daito-Ryu masters specialised in this group of techniques looks almost exactly like Aikido. Moreover, they too do not believe in competition. Unfortunately, it seems that the only authentic schools of this art are in Japan."

KAMI : Aikijujutsu's techniques are far, far, lesser than those thousand of techniques (Ueshiba also pretended that Aikido had thousands of techniques). All in all, Aikijujutsu has much fewer techniques than that. The problem is that oriental people always pretend that their fighting arts have "thousands of techniques". The same technique made from the right side and the left side are not considered ONE technique but TWO. And so on...This way, fighting arts that have just a few dozen techniques are said to have really "thousands of techniques"...
Also, we have many "authentic" (whatever that means) schools of Aikijujutsu in the West (Roppokai schools in Denmark, Italy and the USA and Mainline and Takumakai in the United States, for instance).
But I agree that, due to secrecy, DRAJJ schools only demonstrate publicly Shoden techniques, the same practiced by Aikido.
Best

Last edited by Kami : 12-02-2001 at 02:17 PM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 12-02-2001, 02:33 PM   #6
Kami
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Cool DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
You can check out their official website:

http://www.daito-ryu.org
KAMI : This is the site of the so-called mainline, of Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei. There are also other "authentic" DRAJJ, such as the Kodokai, the Takumakai and the Roppokai and also organizations that deny the authority of Kondo Sensei and the main line, such as the Seishinkai.
You may look also to those "official" websites :
DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU ROPPOKAI(Seigo Okamoto Sensei)
http://www.daitoryu-roppokai.org/
DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU TAKUMAKAI (founder Takuma Hisa Sensei)
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 12-02-2001, 08:30 PM   #7
mle
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Re: DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU

Thank you for your erudite information, sir.

May I add, as a caveat, that individuals who studied under an aikidoka and then decided to teach "aiki-jutsu" or whatever variant by doing the techniques harder are generally NOT legitimate.

Check their lineage, experience, and character carefully.

I DO study a variant of what could be called "aiki-jutsu" but it is a mix of older jujutsu styles with weapon and striking arts.
My sensei knows and studies and seeks more about his lineage and is very honest about his roots.

Beware the teacher who becomes offended when you ask. They should be eager to tell you.

Best to know as exactly as possible what you are getting, particularly if you are a practical type seeking a "street-smart" art.

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Old 12-02-2001, 10:18 PM   #8
Erik
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Re: Aikido and Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.
I'm wondering if you might comment on the following quote:

As the words for ``harmony'' and ``love'' can be pronounced ai, I decided to name my unique budo Aikido, although the word aiki is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine.

This implies that he named it, so I admit to being confused. Did Ueshiba simply decide that he really did want it that way after the name was changed? Or, is this quote incorrect?

Last edited by Erik : 12-02-2001 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 12-04-2001, 10:52 AM   #9
Johan Tibell
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Re: Aikido and Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
KAMI : Morihei O didn't learn all of Aikijujutsu. Ueshiba learned a bit more than the Shoden and his certificate from Takeda Dai Sensei was just the one known as KYOJU DAIIRI (Assistant Teacher, in the absence of the Master). There was no agreement between the men (Takeda and Ueshiba). They break apart querulously, after some time, and not having the Menkyo Kaiden(License of Complete Knowledge), Ueshiba couldn't teach Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, his former master being alive.
Hrmmm, if I remember Stanley Pranin wrote that the Menkyo Kaiden didn't exist when Morihei Ueshiba received his certificates. Pretty sure he wrote that Ueshiba taught Aiki-jutsu to quite a number of people but I've to get back to you on that. Need to re-read my sources (Aikido Journal) so I won't en up lying.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell
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Old 12-04-2001, 06:00 PM   #10
tedehara
 
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Re: Aikido and Aikijujutsu

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami
Hello!
Just to clear up some points :
Ted Ehara said :
"Sokaku Takeda taught Morihei Ueshiba Daito Ryu Aiki-jitsu. It was Ueshiba's personal expression of the art which became Aikido. Both men agreed that Ueshiba's art was so different from Daito Ryu, it should be given a new name."

KAMI : Morihei O didn't learn all of Aikijujutsu. Ueshiba learned a bit more than the Shoden and his certificate from Takeda Dai Sensei was just the one known as KYOJU DAIIRI (Assistant Teacher, in the absence of the Master). There was no agreement between the men (Takeda and Ueshiba). They break apart querulously, after some time, and not having the Menkyo Kaiden(License of Complete Knowledge), Ueshiba couldn't teach Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu,his former master being alive.
So Ueshiba changed the name of what he was doing (Aikibujutsu, Aioi Ryu, Kobubudo, Aikibudo), not because it was so much different from what he learned but because he couldn't teach it.
Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai. <SNIP>
If you click on the first sentence of the original post (or the following title), you'll be taken to an article Morihei Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda by Stanley Pranin on the Aikido Journal web site.
Quote:
from Morihei Ueshiba and Takeda
What is known is that Takeda remained for five months teaching members of the Ueshiba Juku dojo and that at the end of this period Ueshiba was awarded the "kyoju dairi" certificate conferring upon him official status as an instructor of Daito-ryu....Further, Ueshiba, now an accredited teacher of Daito-ryu, awarded scrolls of proficiency to his direct students probably as late as 1937. Among the recipients of Daito-ryu diplomas from Ueshiba are Kenji Tomiki, Minoru Mochizuki, Rinjiro Shirata, Gozo Shioda and numerous others
So Ueshiba certainly thought of himself as an Aiki-jitsu instructor as late as 1937. His style of martial arts was called various names, including Ueshiba ryu. Even though Ueshiba and Takeda eventually broke off communicating after 20 years, there is no indication that Ueshiba was ever forbidden to teach Daito-ryu Aiki-jitsu. He also was the one, according to Kishimaru Ueshiba, I believe, who decided on calling it Aikido. I'll look up the original source for that and post it.

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