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Old 08-28-2007, 03:16 PM   #151
grondahl
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Afaik Toutain Sensei has left Saito Hitohiro's Shinshin Aiki Shuren Kai and founded his own organization.
It seems so. My bad.
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:42 PM   #152
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post

I would love to speak to someone who has purely Aikido and BJJ expierience though. And no other arts. Would have a lot of questions for them.
I'm your huckleberry. Ask away.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:54 PM   #153
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
In other terms how likely it is for you to end up on the floor and is there any thing you will be able to do about it. Most of us are not professional and we have a limited amount of training time.

IE is it worth investing time for the return you will get.
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:02 PM   #154
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
... It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy.
I agree. There's only one constant force in our lives I can think of: gravity.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:37 PM   #155
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.
You've answered a lot of my questions there my friend. Is it worth it from the perspective of someone who has studied aikido for a while. How long roughly with regulat training and a enthusiatic learner would it take me to get the basics.

Does cross training with BJJ confuse or mess with you Aikido? I have never cross trained. In reality as opposed to questions i'd need to physically see then ask questions i guess...cant find no where near me thats BJJ though at the moment. Hmmm this one will play on my mind for a bit i think.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:38 PM   #156
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

To give you some perspective on me I taught Aikido for around 10 years and now run my own BJJ organisation.
I never found the two interfered with each other. It's really the perfect situation they have a lot in common strategically but although the movements are different they don't contaminate because one is on the ground and one is on the feet so you're always very clear which mode you're in. Which isn't to say there's not the odd time as uke you'll be tempted to keep going after the throw or as nage finish a sumi otoshi with a nice armbar and similar.

Here's the danger though. Yes you can learn as much ground as you need in a pretty short space of time - 6 months 2-3 times a week at a good school will take you a long way with a moderate amount of co-ordination. But it's addictive. So you will keep going in most cases. Many people fall in love with it and stop doing what they were doing before. 80% of the people I train with that started cross training in BJJ from something else are now doing BJJ exclusively. So there you go.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:19 PM   #157
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
This thread has improved! Graham Wild, thanks for your contributions. I don't agree with everything you say, but it is quite refreshing to read your thoughts.

Best,
Ron
I am glad I can be amussing to some.

I will say that I am pushing my points a little to much, as someone mentioned before, I am not here to convert anyone, I like to develop thoughts. Hopefully someone may grasp the idea of defending yourself against an untrained person, and trying to defend yourself against a trained person.

From the dictionary.

Defend:
to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:06 AM   #158
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I think people should have the very basics covered on the ground. I'm not saying join up BJJ and start putting people to sleep with triangles, but get your basic guard, sweeps and position control. Enough for you to

a) Not get mounted and pounded
b) Get up and leave

Study videos of situations on the street that went to the ground, and see what everyone's doing.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-29-2007 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:15 AM   #159
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
In terms of return on training time investment, BJJ is one of the best ROI's there is. With regular training over 3-6 months you can have a *significant* advantage over others on the ground. Watch the early ufcs - it wasn't just the guys fighting Royce that went to the ground, almost everyone did. It's a *very* common occurrance in fights even if no one plans to go there. If self defence is what you are after you *must* have a ground strategy. The good news is it doesn't take very long to get there.
Well
My point is not that BJJ is not useful or efficient. In fact I believe that if you already know BJJ. It will help you a lot in self defence.
But there is no denying that BJJ or ground work in general is designed to be use against a single opponent, usually in booting conditions.
Here we are talking about ground work in the context of self defence.

My point is that if it self defence you are after, it is not necessarily the thing you want to spend time in. and not practicing a ground game is not equivalent to not have a ground strategy. Look at MMA matches nowadays, some never go to the ground some do.

As you have my notice my answer was two fold.
There are case where I said that yes ground skills are very important it is, and others where I said it was not worth the effort.

In what self defence situation will we use our ground skill exactly?

Obviously in cases that are close to booting match or when we are sure that there only one opponent.

But in a multiple attacker, going to the ground willingly is not a sensible course of action.
And being taken to the ground is going to be your undoing, regardless how good you are on the ground.
yes there is case where you know that help is at hand or if you ground game is much better than your opponent (if you are a proper BJJ guy) you will be able to delay the other opponents enough for help to come and or set up a verbal/psychological fence.
But in that case you need more than 6 month in BJJ and or have help handy.

And according to the part of the world you living in, fighting against a single opponent can be inexistent or relatively common (all that pondered by your occupation).

You can not make a rule about self-defence
If facing several opponents is the most common encounter. It makes more sense to work on defence against being taken down (or the escape to get up that Larry mentioned) than working on what to do when you are on the floor.

If we take graham kote geishi followed by juji gatame, it is a very sound combination, it works well it is easy to apply.
That does not prevent it to be a bad idea if the person you are doing it has friends with him and you don't.
And the above is not excluding the very same technique being a good idea if graham is dealing with Johnny-no-mate on the booze.

phil

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Old 08-29-2007, 08:25 AM   #160
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

The other thing to be aware of in a ground grappling situation is that certain training paradagms automatically assume that both opponents are unarmed. This doesn't lessen the validity of either training paradigm, but it's something to keep in mind. I've been to BJJ and Aikido schools that had a certain number of law enforcement guys and they're typically very good about addressing that.

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:04 AM   #161
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
But in a multiple attacker, going to the ground willingly is not a sensible course of action.
And being taken to the ground is going to be your undoing, regardless how good you are on the ground.
yes there is case where you know that help is at hand or if you ground game is much better than your opponent (if you are a proper BJJ guy) you will be able to delay the other opponents enough for help to come and or set up a verbal/psychological fence.
But in that case you need more than 6 month in BJJ and or have help handy.

And according to the part of the world you living in, fighting against a single opponent can be inexistent or relatively common (all that pondered by your occupation).

You can not make a rule about self-defence
If facing several opponents is the most common encounter. It makes more sense to work on defence against being taken down (or the escape to get up that Larry mentioned) than working on what to do when you are on the floor.

If we take graham kote geishi followed by juji gatame, it is a very sound combination, it works well it is easy to apply.
That does not prevent it to be a bad idea if the person you are doing it has friends with him and you don't.
And the above is not excluding the very same technique being a good idea if graham is dealing with Johnny-no-mate on the booze.
I think I would clarify my point by saying, just learning to escape from the mount or guard is not really sufficient. Just like training Kata is not enough to make Aikido effective, there must be Randori The same is true for Ne Waza, if you think just learning how to make people let go is enough, it won't be.

Obviously I am not going into juji gatame out of habit. I respect the limitation of Ne Waza (ie it is no good with multiple opponents). We have multiple pins for all of our techniques. However I think, just as you do, that multiple opponents is very luckily. If they try and take me down, I know what I am doing. Hence the reason I recommend Judo (or BJJ if you want). I am not talking about fighting one guy on the floor while his friends are kicking me in the head; that is stupid. I am taking about getting that guy of me so I can deal with the others.

I would not even use juji gatame on Johnny-no-mate on the booze, I would be turning him over and pin him in the "regular" method, face down. If I had to use the juji gatame, it would be to pop the elbow nice and quick; then I would deal with other opponents without needing to worry about the guy on the floor.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:29 AM   #162
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hello Graham
It was nothing personal.
It was just that the technique you mentioned is really handy to illustrate my point.

There is something I don't really get in you mail.
We are talking about multiple opponents, so I assume that for the rest of the post
I totally agree with you the limitation of ne- waza but on the other hand I understand that you are saying that you would do juji gatame to pop is elbow (which a good policy in my book) and then deal with the others.
I see that as contradicting each other, I man we are on the floor to do juji gatame and if the other opponent mattered before than they can be on us before completion or at least before we get up.

I am pretty sure it is not what you meant but that is what I read 
(Sorry for being thick, if you want you can PM me because I am not sure that it is relevant to the thread as such)

Budd,
I have tried with BJJ practicing nephew
If the knife was drawn before, BJJ was pretty useless but may be it can be used as an option to jam the draw.
The idea comes from medieval manual, they advocates coming to wrestling before the other can access his weapon. (and from a former discussion here)
It is not an exhaustive trial only 1:30-2:00 hours and it was on a lawn

We worked until submission or repeat stabbing.
The knife holder tried to use bjj or aikido (and punching/pressure points) or any craftiness to get the weapon hand free, but the idea was to free the weapon to stab. If possible with a temporary pin (i.e. a pin that does not really hold but give enough time to hit a valuable target)

We did taking the guard to jam the draw (dagger in from on the side or in the back with a soft fence to cover the draw)
There was a bit of faffing about but we manage to find a safe way to submission.
Basically jamming the knife hand and isolating it by controlling the head.

And we did from a front mount (people usually pay good money for that in London).
And accessing the weapon makes it easier for the hold before the pounding or just sits on the hips and arm across the throat (still jamming the draw (we just did side and front draw for the dagger)

Has anybody else tried that before?

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:53 AM   #163
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello Graham
It was nothing personal.
It was just that the technique you mentioned is really handy to illustrate my point.
I know that, I just picked a combination of techniques that people should recognise, if not they could easily look them up on google image.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
There is something I don't really get in you mail.
We are talking about multiple opponents, so I assume that for the rest of the post
I totally agree with you the limitation of ne- waza but on the other hand I understand that you are saying that you would do juji gatame to pop is elbow (which a good policy in my book) and then deal with the others.
I see that as contradicting each other, I man we are on the floor to do juji gatame and if the other opponent mattered before than they can be on us before completion or at least before we get up.
This then suggest that we should train with two man randori, have one pull you down, then try to get him of you before the other can do anything to damaging. If you get the guy on the bottom into a arm bar (juji gatame ude hishige or any other ude hishige [rokkyo]) or an ude garami, you can assume you have popped his shoulder or elbow hence he is gone. Then deal with the second guy. Ideally we would just want to escape the first one, deal with the second guy while the first is standing up. That would be ideal. The whole point of insurance (as you mentioned) is that it is for those none ideal situations.

I must point out that my point is we shouldn't need to cross train in BJJ as the thread suggests, as some of these "tricks" are important enough to include in our training.

The best example is with Tohei Sensei. He has these wonderful demos with him flinging his ukes about, but when the American Judoka challenged him (in Rendezvous with Adventure) he had a resisting opponent. Hence no nice pretty techniques.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:59 AM   #164
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Well
My point is not that BJJ is not useful or efficient. In fact I believe that if you already know BJJ. It will help you a lot in self defence.
But there is no denying that BJJ or ground work in general is designed to be use against a single opponent, usually in booting conditions.
Here we are talking about ground work in the context of self defence.
Sorry Phil, but you are just wrong.
Multiple attackers make it *more* likely you will need a ground game. If it's a struggle to hold your feet against one person, what makes you think you can do it against three? Because the reality is in a mulitple situation they do not wait their turn like they do in jiyu waza - they bumrush you all at once, and brother you are going down. If you don't know what to do when you're down there you have an even more serious problem than before.

With some training however you have some choices. Many sweeps and reversals can be performed *very* quickly on untrained opponents. Sweeping and getting to knee ride while putting up a verbal fence can be a very effective way of keeping the other potential attackers at bay. In some situations you may choose to go underneath and use one attacker as a shield -I know several people that have done this effectively.

To think that just because you've done some three person jiyu waza in aikido means that is a winning strategy against multiples is naive.

Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.

Finally having a ground game you are confident in will help your standup. when there is less fear of the clinch and the ground you can perform your standup techniques with less hesitation and total commitment which makes for a fearsome irimi!

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:06 PM   #165
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.
Hence the reason I suggest Judo, is has good techniques to complement stand up Aikido, and it gives you a chance to do and resist takedown. Plus you get the MOST effective ground fighting experience (if you have the right teacher)

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:27 PM   #166
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Hence the reason I suggest Judo, is has good techniques to complement stand up Aikido,
Judo's not a bad option. I personally found however that when I dabbled in it I had contamination issues with Aikido. Judo's balance work can be quite different - more hoppy at times doing things like lifting one leg high off the mat while driving your own head down to complete a throw (such as uchi mata). Nothing wrong with that, but it was just so foreign to aikido stances and movement it screwed me up. At the same time I was dabbling one of my Aikido beginners was as well, and he had real trouble with Judo footwork coming across into Aikido.
Quote:
aPlus you get the MOST effective ground fighting experience (if you have the right teacher)
LOL at the trollbait ;-)

I'll bite anyway. BJJ is much more sophisticated on the ground. Judo is limited by two aspects of their ground comp rules (which affect training paradigms)

1. The quick standups
2. The hold down ippon.

those two things mean the ground dynamic is quite different in judo. Hence no guard work to speak of, not much in the way of sweeps etc. Now maybe the right teacher deals with all of that but that's a bit like saying the right Aikido teacher will show you how to throw and defend against decent thigh kicks. That may well be true, but those teachers are rarer than the rare spotted snarklefish....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:54 PM   #167
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I found wrestling clinches suited me much better than Judo. I don't like relying on the gi or shirt, and some times wrestling just helps me more during the scramble that you often see in fights.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:40 PM   #168
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I agree Roman. I've also found that if you get into grappling because you've been unsuccessful with an Aikido tech - that it is generally a clinch type situation you will find yourself in rather than judo grips.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:01 PM   #169
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
LOL at the trollbait ;-)

I'll bite anyway.
WOOHOO, sucker (just to make it clear that is a joke)

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
BJJ is much more sophisticated on the ground. Judo is limited by two aspects of their ground comp rules (which affect training paradigms)

1. The quick standups
2. The hold down ippon.

those two things mean the ground dynamic is quite different in judo. Hence no guard work to speak of, not much in the way of sweeps etc. Now maybe the right teacher deals with all of that but that's a bit like saying the right Aikido teacher will show you how to throw and defend against decent thigh kicks. That may well be true, but those teachers are rarer than the rare spotted snarklefish....
I don't know how rare those spotted shark fish are, but Helio Gracie found one in Maeda

Mochizuki Kancho had Mifune to teach him his Ne Waza! I am sure others did to, but you can see even into the 50's when he released his book that Mifune was still teaching leg locks etc. I also use Kawaishi's, My Method of Judo as a reference book for Ne Waza.

I would agree that some judo throws may seem apposed to the principles of Aikido, but the majority of them aren't. Also, don't forget that when Kano asked Ueshiba to accept Mifune as a student O'Sensei said, Mifune is already doing Aikido!

The sad thing about Judo and it's rules it that Judo, due to Kosen Judo (High School Judo) was turning into what BJJ (minus and strikes) on its own. However, when Kano noticed this, he actually organised a rule change to limit work on the floor. The said three attempts to pull your opponent down, then you lose. 30 seconds on the floor, then its back on your feet. It is quite strange that Kano as a revolutionist with judo actually limited its development. Obviously at some level, Kano was still a traditionalist, since his favourite art was Kito Ryu (the source of most of the throws). Judo would clearly be the BEST art on the ground today if this hadn't happened, and basically Judo in the Olympics would be like modern grappling tournaments.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-30-2007, 07:48 AM   #170
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Sorry Phil, but you are just wrong.
Multiple attackers make it *more* likely you will need a ground game. If it's a struggle to hold your feet against one person, what makes you think you can do it against three? Because the reality is in a mulitple situation they do not wait their turn like they do in jiyu waza - they bumrush you all at once, and brother you are going down. If you don't know what to do when you're down there you have an even more serious problem than before.

With some training however you have some choices. Many sweeps and reversals can be performed *very* quickly on untrained opponents. Sweeping and getting to knee ride while putting up a verbal fence can be a very effective way of keeping the other potential attackers at bay. In some situations you may choose to go underneath and use one attacker as a shield -I know several people that have done this effectively.

To think that just because you've done some three person jiyu waza in aikido means that is a winning strategy against multiples is naive.

Also the best way to avoid being taken down is to learn takedowns and wrestling.

Finally having a ground game you are confident in will help your standup. when there is less fear of the clinch and the ground you can perform your standup techniques with less hesitation and total commitment which makes for a fearsome irimi!
Hello micheal
I think you miss some of the point I made earlier. You view share some common point wit mine but I think it is too broad of a statement.

Did I not mention myself and before you than yes you can put up a verbal/psychological fence whilst using your ground game?
But did I not say that if you already practice BJJ (or any ground art for that matter) it can be put to good use for self defence?
Did I not state the in some cases, like bouncer or rape defense, ground skill are needed?
Yes I know few people from whom it worked, but I know far more people from whom it did not.
Did I no use exactly the same example that you used to explain where and why I believe it works?
That being said: People who use their opponent as a shield were successful because help arrived at one point. You are surely aware that, if we believe info available, injuries occurred by a large majority when grappling on the ground either via weapon conceded on the person being grappled, a weapons/strike used by a standing opponent or a weapon or strike by a an opponent no being part of the initial attack..

Could you try that circle drill. (with and without physical fence)
Get 2-3 guys at one meters from you and, they go at you, both trying to take you down/restrain you and pond you whilst you are on the ground or as you go down.
Or one bringing you down whilst the other(s) tries to kick
And increase the starting distance, by one meter

You will find that striking and moving out of the way will become effective far sooner (at a closer distance) than ground fighting. (As well it preserves you ability to flee to a greater extends.) but using ground fighting will produce positive results.

If you stager the opponents i.e. one starts further back than the other, and increase that distance between them, ground fighting becomes even more viable. And for it to be viable, you need a strategy to get create the staggering (i.e. give you time to deal with one opponent).
This is what graham will achieve with his randori or what you will make happen in my example above.

In a stable controlled environment, ie you know the number of attacker and that they do not have weapons. Ground fighting is a viable option.

Now add a concealed weapon on one of the baddy and or have two attacking and have a third in side coming when he sees fit (with or without weapon). Ground fighting becomes much much less viable.

Self defence wise, it is not likely that you will know how many attackers there is, if they all are going to come at once and if the will have weapons, (though improvised weapon are usually readily available).
I share a lot of your argument but in "self defense" they will use their number to swamp you (rape like scnearion) or some will impair you, for the other to strike, All that being you a minimum time to react. Ie no square of no advance warning.

May be it is being naïve, or amazingly impress by my randory and kokuy nague vs plenty of people that do not really have it in for me. (and thrust me I am found of myself)
But I would say it is about pressure testing you strategy and tactics as much as you pressure test your techniques.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:58 AM   #171
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This then suggest that we should train with two man randori, have one pull you down, then try to get him of you before the other can do anything to damaging. If you get the guy on the bottom into a arm bar (juji gatame ude hishige or any other ude hishige [rokkyo]) or an ude garami, you can assume you have popped his shoulder or elbow hence he is gone. Then deal with the second guy. Ideally we would just want to escape the first one, deal with the second guy while the first is standing up. That would be ideal. The whole point of insurance (as you mentioned) is that it is for those none ideal situations.

I must point out that my point is we shouldn't need to cross train in BJJ as the thread suggests, as some of these "tricks" are important enough to include in our training.

The best example is with Tohei Sensei. He has these wonderful demos with him flinging his ukes about, but when the American Judoka challenged him (in Rendezvous with Adventure) he had a resisting opponent. Hence no nice pretty techniques.

Regards,
Hello graham,
Thanks I see what you mean
Hopefully with my reply to Michael, you will see where I am coming from.

It is not an antinomy as such. I mean what you say makes sense and works and to certain extend is applicable in self defence.
Granted that is not going to be applicable in a mugging scenario, but that is fine for a drunken guy and his mate (s), (Provided that it is used with a verbal/psychological fence).

We can ague till we are blue in the face if it is the optimum approach to self-defence or not. My point is that it is good enough if drunken brawl is the more likely self defence situation you will see, and that is really what matters. Self-defense in itself does not mean a lot.

I think that is where RBSD and combat sport go a bit over the top sometimes,.
One is assuming that there is people out there whose sole purpose is to get you, if possible in post apocalyptic world and the other does not really want to admit that its operating environment represent only a fraction of what happens in the "real world".

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:44 AM   #172
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello graham,
Thanks I see what you mean
Hopefully with my reply to Michael, you will see where I am coming from.

It is not an antinomy as such. I mean what you say makes sense and works and to certain extend is applicable in self defence.
Granted that is not going to be applicable in a mugging scenario, but that is fine for a drunken guy and his mate (s), (Provided that it is used with a verbal/psychological fence).

We can ague till we are blue in the face if it is the optimum approach to self-defence or not. My point is that it is good enough if drunken brawl is the more likely self defence situation you will see, and that is really what matters. Self-defense in itself does not mean a lot.

I think that is where RBSD and combat sport go a bit over the top sometimes,.
One is assuming that there is people out there whose sole purpose is to get you, if possible in post apocalyptic world and the other does not really want to admit that its operating environment represent only a fraction of what happens in the "real world".

Phil
Hi Phil,

Enjoying the exchange (not really arguing, I hope).

Don’t get me wrong, I would hope to one day be like O’Sensei, and never need to use ground techniques because I can deal with my opponents at the moment of contact, or before (through peaceful negotiations ).

I am currently trying to get some statistics together, since you are pushing the “likely” scenario thing. I do agree with this, as I am sure Michael does, but we just have different ideas as to what we think is more likely. I have seen people clinch in one on one street fights, but stay standing. I have only experienced haymakers in my two encounters. Hence I am trying to get some stats on assaults and robberies, specifically about the number of attackers.

I can tell you for sure that as a female in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~42%), buy a family member (~42%) (or someone she knows in general ~81%), in a home (~58%). I can only assume that this would be a one on one situation. For a male in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~40%), buy a stranger (~51%), not in a home (~70%). I can make no assumption based on the information. Hence I have asked the Australian Institute of Criminology for more information.

As a researcher I have a natural tendency to research

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-30-2007 at 11:47 AM.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:51 AM   #173
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

The result of those numbers suggests that an art like Aikido, rather than something like Karate, would be much better for a woman to learn, since in an overwhelming majority of cases (>80%) she will be assaulted by someone she knows. I would say however, the fact that she is trained means that the person who knows her may be less likely to assault her. Just a thought.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-30-2007, 01:13 PM   #174
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Phil here's where we differ. You think in a multiple scenario engagement you'll have a choice whether you go to ground. I'm not saying BJJ is all you need - not by a long stretch. But it is a part of it. Ground fighting is *necessary* but not *sufficient* for self defence in all scenarios.

Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

I agree that grappling will sometimes be your last option. But sometimes you don't have an option....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:38 PM   #175
wildaikido
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.
That's not fair, why can't I have a chance at winning the $200. I'm going to be in NZ in November for a conference

Graham Wild
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