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Old 08-21-2007, 09:10 AM   #51
salim
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I think it's great that we have an Aikidoist sparring. We should advocate for more sparring. It's a true test of a person's ability, unlike demonstrations, which tell you nothing about a person ability to realistically defend themselves. Winner or loser, it's a real test of ability.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:10 AM   #52
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the "punches" and "kicks" strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil

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Old 08-21-2007, 11:57 AM   #53
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:01 PM   #54
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:12 PM   #55
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello

First of all, what would have been the reaction, had that white belt whooped his black belt ass?

So BJJ did not work very well on that very occurrence, and so what . one swallow does not bring the spring

If you are sparing on a regular basis what ever the sparing at, you will lose some here and then. And that is all sparing proves that X had the better on Z at a time T.

Can we really call the "punches" and "kicks" strikes, they seems to me more like distraction to me.
Besides you are a little bit naïve when sparing with some who know you grapple, does not have a ground game himself and except him to drop his only weapons preserve the distance.
Aikido is not magical, you need to have create an advantage to establish your techniques.

phil
I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:16 PM   #56
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Look how winded the Aikido guy was. The BJJ guy actually allowed the Aikido to regain his wind. Imagine a real fight, they are not going to allow you to regain you wind. In a real fight they are going to kick your ass, put a hurting own you. If we didn't learn anything from the video, we learn that physical conditioning extremely is important.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:31 PM   #57
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Very true, he was too nice. If someone tried to eye gouge me. I would not rest until they were out cold.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:46 PM   #58
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:53 AM   #59
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I disagree with you regarding what sparring does for a person. Sparring is not about winning or losing necessarily. The object for some, is to determine a person's self defense capability. It allows a person to judge there weaknesses with there timing, there ability to move in any direction, there ability to counter act unplanned attacks or moves that you are not familiar with defending. It allows you to judge yourself, improve your own skills and abilities. There are an array of unconventional punches, kicks, take downs, movements that only training, sparring can allow a person to learn from. Sparring is a good training method for self defense.
Well about losing and winning
You are dancing around the bush here.
In sparing, it is not so much the case one will fare better than the other globally (that will fluctuate through time and it does not really matter. But for each technique that he successfully applies you lost. That is the net result of all the assessment you are making. There should be no issue recognising that your sparing partner has the better on you. In fact that is te first step to address issue you have with your strategy, tactics or technique.
(Though usually technique is not the one that, let you down, it is trying to apply one when it is not really the time or the place.)

My point is that even if you are very good in sparing, your partner will get some on you.
It happens and I would say that exactly the point. Sparing is an environment where losing as no consequences. Winning ort loosing do not really matter as you will always be able to get a positive aspect on how you perform.
I think it is not very different to what you are saying. However No not recognising failure lead to the comment that the guy that spared made on you tube.
Ie I controlled him all the time, I could have ,I would have if I really wanted to…
No he did not have control of the bloke most of the time, if that was the case he would have pulled more successful technique. It is not a matter of could would or wanting….
If that is what you get out of sparing, it will never be of any use.

About the virtue of sparing
What the sparing scenario "I am squaring up to you outside any partcial range or at extreme kick range" has to do with self defence? Sparing is duelling which seldom happens in self defence.
Sparing only value in self defence is that it tunes your strategically, tactical and technical aspect of fighting. basically it makes you better at using the technique.
As well if you are recreating an art like medieval fencing for exemple, sparing is very important research tool because if you can not pull a technique in sparring, there is something that you did not understand and you need to go back to the manual.
And for me that is the biggest danger with sparing, you can drop a technique because it does not work, where in fact the technique is perfectly fine and the problem is in where and when you tried to use it.

From work (or drill) is the place to develop technique not sparing. Sparing can give an idea for drill/ form work. But to develop the motor skill for a given technique, you need consistency and sparing can not give you that. (Well it will eventually do, but it is much much more inefficient than drill/from work.)

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:09 AM   #60
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I assumed the kicking and punching was partly an attempt to start some kind of interaction, to get the other guy to block or strike back and give himself something more familiar to respond to or something, since he probably was used to training from some kind of strike or grab... I don't really know though.
To me he used kick and punches, to fill the vacuum between them, So that the bjj guy could not close on him. It is exactly like keeping the point of a sword towards your opponent.
They were not really strikes so to speak, they are warning shot across the bow if you want.
Of course there is always the possibility that my 87 grand-mother pack more whallops that the aikido guy or that he is severely short sighted and strike too short.

Ps
Not to throw a spanner in the works but the aikido guy can be knackered, he just had his training session. I do not know how long and how intense his sessions are but I am not on top condition after mine.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:22 AM   #61
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Well, I don't know enough about BJJ to know how good or bad he was, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the Aikido guy, at least considering he was the one wearing a black belt and presumably had several years more training than the other guy.
Sparring will seldom look nice or impressive (unless the party involved are very good).
Yes it does not look earth shattering but it is a video and we where not there.
It is good that they spared, now there is not that much that video tell us.
Nothing other hand a smaller more experienced aikidoka after a training session was able to hold off /was slightly better than a fresh bigger and much less experience BJJ practitioner.

If those guy where sparing regularly, the BJJ guy will adapt and then reverse the tendency, to which the aikido guy will adapt and reverse the tendency and so and so on.

There is no generic lesson as to this is the proof that X is better than Z here, just what worked and did not for those two guys at that given time. (Where X and Z can be style or persons).
It is just one occurrence. We can not build rules or even have and unqualified opinion with that.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:39 AM   #62
Keith R Lee
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

So, from looking at that video....a few months old BJJ white belt and a Aikido black belt negate each other in terms of skill?


Keith Lee
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Old 08-22-2007, 06:30 AM   #63
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.

You rarely here the Yoseikan, Yoshikhan or Aikibudo organization having a gripe with sparring or self defense. Really a turn off to those who have the drive to learn purely self defense.
What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:47 AM   #64
Basia Halliop
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?....

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group . I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:52 AM   #65
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

For the record, when I said I wasn't hugely impressed, I didn't mean prettiness. All I meant was that they struck me as too well matched for a black belt going against someone with 4-6 months of training. I could have judged wrong though, since I'm not so used to evaluating that format, and anyway, as you say, it's hard to draw big conclusions.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:05 AM   #66
Basia Halliop
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Uh, Salim, don't you mean Tomiki ?....

Also, Aikikai isn't really a style per se, it's more a collection of everyone left over who has never left to form their own group . I wouldn't say it's got any one particular view or philosophy. For example, what I have learned so far about Shintoism after around three years in the Aikikai: it's a religion in Japan.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:54 AM   #67
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
What? Are you saying that they used to train with sparring in aikido before WW2? And also that Yoshinkan uses sparring in its training?
Where have you "learned" all of this?
Hello Peter I don't believe that is what Salim is saying. (that being said, it is forum communication ....)

I think he just says that should you happen to mention a liking or interest in sparing or self defense, those organizations do not send you a two beams, 3 nails and a hammer via 3 roman legionaries.
What I understand he is saying that is those organization are more open to the ideas of sparing and using aikido in a more self defense way that aikikai (which I understand is Hombu affiliated dojo)or ki aikido tradition/schools..

Phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:15 PM   #68
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:10 AM   #69
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I've yet to see a Yoshinkan dojo where they spar, so maybe I'm missing a piece of the "pre-WW2" history here.
Quote:
Salim wrote:
"It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII."
.
may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:30 AM   #70
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
may be i am daft but I do not understand what salim said as they were sparing before WWII and aikikai and ki lost that aspect.

I just understand that as ki and aikikai don not puyt much value on sparing, in fact they have moved away from the more combat oriented pre WWII aikido.

ps i do not nessecarily agree with that, it is too much of sweeping statement, but i think that is what salim is saying.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:15 AM   #71
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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It's amazing how the Aikikai and Ki organizations, really are the ones who have a problem with the training methods of sparring. They are so heavily influenced by the Shinto religion that they have abandon the combativeness that Aikido had, post WWII.
I may not be an expert on this, but I train at a licensed Shinto shrine under a licensed Shinto priest and by most accounts, our form of Aikido is very "firm." I regularly see folks testing each other out before and during training ("sparring," as I understand it) and I've often recieved a crisp strike (never very hard, but it always stings a little) when I don't move properly. I don't think the religion has anything to do with it.
What I think much of the Aikido world takes exception to is the idea of competing too much during these activities. I'm sure there are plenty of dojo that don't like people to compete in the manner described above, but there's a fine line between competing and pushing a partner to new limits. Maybe the best way of saying it is, "safety first?"
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Matt

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Old 08-23-2007, 09:41 AM   #72
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
That is how I understand Salims post as well. But the problem I see is that all records indicates that Ueshiba didn´t teach sparring either before or after WW2. So the aspect that he claims have been lost has never been there.
Maybe I don't understand what sparring is...
I recall taking tae kwon do in elementary school and watching the yellow belts "spar." They weren't allowed to go at it full force because they're yellow belts, yet it was called "sparring." Maybe an elementary tae kwon do class isn't a good example, but I've never seen "sparring" refer to full-force contact. As I said above, I understand many dojo do not like it when uke tries kaeshiwaza/reversals, but I've still been given the impression there's a degree of "sparring" when two students practice a technique during open-mat sessions. Any time someone stops the flow to teach or make suggestions, isn't that a mild form of sparring? Add to that the increased intensity with which different sempai uke apply pressure and I don't understand the idea that there is no sparring in Aikido. Tomiki Ryu has a very structured sparring system. Their randori system, as I think I understand it, uses a graduating degree of force that I think most people would liken to a graduating degree of sparring, but still it's sparring. Perhaps Shodokan folks with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 08-23-2007, 09:53 AM   #73
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....

Last edited by grondahl : 08-23-2007 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:21 AM   #74
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
But Shodokans system for randori is not prewar as far that I´m aware of.. And it was constructed by Tomiki, not Ueshiba. Thus it was never a part of the training method either in Aikikai hombu, Iwama, Shingu etc....
That's a good point about it being more akin to prewar styling (as I assume you meant). Still, what about the underlying principle of added degrees of pressure? I'm probably stretching it by suggesting corrections are a form of sparring, but I know my dojo is influenced by Tohei sensei and Chiba sensei; I assume much of our format was derived from them, but I should probably do more research before I start making assumptions like that.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-23-2007 at 10:35 AM.

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Old 08-23-2007, 10:43 AM   #75
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

...sorry, I meant to include the idea that randori isn't exclusively a Shodokan thing. It exists in all styles of aikido...I believe. What's different between randori and sparring?
Maybe I'm getting off topic, but it seems to me sparring is randori and that Aikikai includes this practice. Maybe it's less important than the idea of how much randori to include in one's training, but spontaneous changes in movement is an invaluable aspect of my experiences with Aikido and I have always assumed this to be intrinsic to it and a form of sparring.
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