Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-30-2007, 06:01 AM   #51
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Romuel Villareal wrote: View Post
Hello again Amir. As you have yet to find any real criteria for the subject, am I correct to assume that you mean they are not doing aikido?
The video looks like some modern Jujutsu style, or Karate, and not so much like Aikido.

But, as I wrote previously, anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably).

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 01:48 PM   #52
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Yeah, to each his own. Thanks Amir.

But if I am the leader and I know it is not aikido, and the syllabus is more or less being influenced by say jujitsu, and still insisted on putting the name aikido, is this sort of intentionally misleading people or students? Because they know the club name has an aikido label, the unsuspected students honestly believe it is really aikido?

Well, they can do what they want to do for all I care. But are they not damaging the "generic" name of aikido as you call it? Because as you said, the video looks like some modern jujitsu or karate but not much of an aikido.

Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence:

Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.

Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.

Last edited by villrg0a : 08-30-2007 at 01:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 08:42 AM   #53
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
anyone can invent any new M.A. and use the term Aikido in it, and there is nothing that can be said against him, since the name is generic and I do not know of any definition (see another thread about this which failed measurably).

Amir
Many have done exactly this.

What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido.

Ai-Ki-Dao.

It is a description and details what one is practicing towards.

If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 12:09 AM   #54
Vincent Munoz
Dojo: None
Location: Miami, Florida
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 34
Philippines
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 12:11 AM   #55
Vincent Munoz
Dojo: None
Location: Miami, Florida
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 34
Philippines
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

if you get a franchise to McDonald and Kentucky, you also have to make sure you meet the correct international standard to avoid destroying the name.

what do you think aikiweb?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 01:33 AM   #56
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Wikipedia says, and please note the last sentence:

Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy" [1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit." [2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralised with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.

Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, but began to diverge from it in the late 1920s, partly due to Ueshiba's involvement with the Ōmoto-kyō religion. Many of Ueshiba's senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today, aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with a broad range of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and a caring for the well-being of the attacker.
Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort.".

Amir

Last edited by Amir Krause : 09-03-2007 at 01:47 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 01:46 AM   #57
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Vincent Munoz wrote: View Post
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?
Look in the history of aikiweb, somebody suggested such an idea. And lots of people already explained to him the weaknesses and problems such concepts create. Not to speak of the simple fact that the term\name AIKIDO was defined by the Jpanese Dai-Nihon-Butokukai as a generic term first, and only later Ueshiba adopted the name for his M.A. and a while after him Hirai (Korindo Aikido founder, who was head of the term coining committee) adopted the name too.

The problem with such an idea, is it forces lots of politics and intervention into the M.A., making it impossible to innovate, and making personal feuds grow way beyond proportion:
The politics of who sets the criteria, and who examines they are withheld.
The handling of exceptions (such as Korindo Aikido).
The organizational system to allow new teachers to announce they teach the M.A. in question (what happens if there is a senior teacher in the same area who would not like competition? what if a teacher is disliked because he preferred to invite one Shihan and not another? )
This all leads to a corrupt and inefficient system, encouraging protection instead of quality.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 01:52 AM   #58
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,957
Japan
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Well actually if you look into the sub article on Aikido styles - Korindo aikido is addresed but in a wikipedia article the first few paragraphs are a general synopsis - not meant to cover every single nuance. To the vast majority of people Aikido does mean a line of transmission through Ueshiba.

Is Real Aikido aikido?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 01:55 AM   #59
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Many have done exactly this.

What they call Aikido is not what I call Aikido.

Ai-Ki-Dao.

It is a description and details what one is practicing towards.

If you believe it is just a name that is fine, you will never have Aikido you will just have techniques.
You can have the M.A. way if you are willing to accept it!

Not because of some meaning you (or I) attach to this or that name, but because you (or I) choose to follow a certain route.

It is not the name which is important, it is practicing with full mind and taking your practice back home with you, trying to act like you practice.

My teacher like to tell a story of a visitor to the enlightened Zen master:
Visitor to Master- "I am told you know were God resides".
Master (humbly) - "Yes"
Visitor - "Then why don't you tell your students ???"
Master - "I point my finger and show them, but they keep their looks at the tip of the finger"

The name is like the pointing finger - indication for a certain direction, not the direction itself.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 02:08 AM   #60
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Is Real Aikido aikido?
We just had a long thread here trying to define Aikido. As far as I saw, it had only students of Ueshiba Aikido, yet they could not find a definition.

Without a definition, how can you make a clear and undisputable decision.

I could say the video does not look like Aikido to me, since I have not seen any "Aiki" in the video and all I saw was few crude Ju-Jutsu techniques, the like of which I have seen in many M.A. and quite a few of the solutions they presented were not in the Aikido "technical spirit" I have seen in other styles.
But, all the above only points to my own preferences, it does not point to some global definitive scientific distinction.
(And I refer only to the Video, since for all I know, the actual practice is totally different)

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 09:19 AM   #61
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Rest assure Amir, it's the same as was quoted before - it's kata based.

I am just a little lost at this "generic" term here. I have a headache, and if I go to the drug store and ask for mefenamic acid, they could give me 10 different brands to choose from. Although they share the same active main ingredient, other sub-ingredients could be different from each brand. They are available in caplets or tablets. and at times ampules/vials in cases of injectables. I am talking about legitimate and expensive brands here.

But then there are also the same medicines (same brand) that are being counterfeited and being sold OTC, and could be very hard to tell from the original including packaging. The only difference is the active ingredient, it says 10mg on the box, but probably only contains 25% of the active ingredient.

Now going back to aikido as being generic, can it be called aikido even though it only contains a partial of the active ingredient? I guess so, but what if it does not have the active ingredient? What is the active ingredient in aikido? Is it harmony? Is it the Ueshiba bloodline?

Although Aikido is generic as it can be, IMHO the active ingredient should be identified, and probably put some measure into it. I dont know, I am just a student. Maybe somebody else out there can explore this subject further.

Maybe as Amir said said "Of the definition above, I could only agree with:
"Aikido is primarily a grappling art in which attacks are neutralized with various types of throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido techniques are intended to be implemented after first blending with the motion of the attacker, so that the defender may redirect the attacker's momentum without directly opposing it, thus using minimum effort."
.

Could they be the active ingredient, that was not present in the subject video?

Last edited by villrg0a : 09-03-2007 at 09:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 10:09 AM   #62
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Amir said: Look at my first post in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37) . The Wikipedia term is simply wrong. The name Aikido is not unique to M.A. derived from Ueshiba. As I explained in the links there, I myself learn Korindo Aikido which does not derive from Ueshiba, yet the M.A. I learn has every historical right to be called Aikido (again, look at the previous links for the explanation).

Aikido journal said from an interview with Gozo Shioda Kancho:
Shioda Sensei: Mr. Osawa commuted to the dojo. Mr. Tohei was a student at Keio University shortly before I left the dojo. He was practicing judo and two of his seniors, Mori, a captain of the Keio Judo Club at the time, and Umeda, a competitor in the student judo championships, were practicing at the Ueshiba dojo.

[By that time], Shigemi Yonekawa, Zenzaburo Akazawa, and all of the early uchideshi had to enter military service and so only the older people were left in the dojo. Mr. Minoru Hirai [founder of Korindo] was handling the office. Since the young people had disappeared, whenever Ueshiba Sensei was invited to give a demonstration, he would take Mr. Hirai with him and he established many contacts in this way. Apparently Hirai used to teach in Roppongi. (Gozo Shioda / Aiki News 93, Fall of 1992 / pg. 11).

I'm totally new to Korindo and have absolutely no idea about it except from what Amir has stated. Is this the same Korindo Aikido that you are saying Amir?

Last edited by villrg0a : 09-03-2007 at 10:17 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 04:15 PM   #63
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 642
Israel
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

It is the same Korindo Aikido.

Hirai did have contact with Ueshiba, but he did not consider Ueshiba as his main source of insipiration, nor did he think of himself as following in Ueshiba footsteps. Hirai was a M.A. expert and teacher before he met Ueshiba, and he had already started to develop his own unique way.

You can also read the message I wrote in A.J. trying to explain this as I understand it:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...889&highlight=

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2007, 10:53 PM   #64
villrg0a
 
villrg0a's Avatar
Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 179
Saudi Arabia
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Thanks Amir.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2008, 01:04 AM   #65
esguerar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5
Philippines
Offline
Smile Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Don't think so...... Pretty uniforms though.... hee hee!

Too many people using the word "aikido" these days to add some sort of credibility to what they are doing..... why don't they just call it Phillippine Self Defence and leave out the "Aikido"
Tony
I am very much agree with Attilio Anthony's comments
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2008, 01:10 AM   #66
esguerar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5
Philippines
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Vincent Munoz wrote: View Post
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?
I agree with you Vincent Munoz
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2008, 01:25 AM   #67
esguerar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5
Philippines
Offline
Smile Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Robin Esguera wrote: View Post
I agree with you Vincent Munoz
wrong reply
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2008, 02:00 AM   #68
esguerar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5
Philippines
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Yes, nothing to do with Aikido, really. I think they just copied some and execution is not right, it's not dynamic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2008, 04:13 AM   #69
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 132
Philippines
Offline
Lightbulb Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I like that robot uke.

"Play dead! Roll over! Ok now hold still for a second while I finish this technique...almost there...ok now play dead again!!"
Ha ha...nice description...I actually pity the Uke. Got hit by some hard knees and elbows during the presentation...totally unnecessary...

looks more like karate mixed with some jujitsu...

Seems to be that the founder of this art studied in Aikido...found it weak so he incorporated strikes as well as removed some dynamic movements...the result karate + jujitsu...

I like the shrieks of the tori though...gives me the heebeejeebees...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 07:50 AM   #70
natasha cebek
 
natasha cebek's Avatar
Dojo: MMA Academy,VT and Budokai M.A, MASS
Location: Vermont
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

elit·ism
Pronunciation:
\ā-ˈlē-ˌti-zəm, i-, ē-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist \-ˈlē-tist\ noun or adjective

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 03:39 PM   #71
tedehara
 
tedehara's Avatar
Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 826
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Vincent Munoz wrote: View Post
Maybe japan has to do something for this issue. Maybe they should do something like a copyright to the phrase "aikido". Uniting all the traditional aikido organizations like aikikai, yoshinkan etc. so that they can sue all the other group whose using the phrase aikido without the permission from the umbrella organization. Aikido became a part of Japanese culture so i think the Japanese government should support this suggestion especially that aikido is being taught to japanese police. Make it international law. I don't know if this is possible, i just thought about it. That way, misuse of the word aikido will be avoided. Like McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cannot use it anywhere if you don't get a franchise.

What do you think aikiweb?
Can't be done. The reason why is because the word Aikido is in the public domain. It's origins do not lie within any particular aikido organization.

McDonald's cannot trademark the name Hamburger. KFC cannot trademark the product name of Chicken. That is why McDonald's spends millions promoting the Big Mac® and KFC promotes it's Original Recipe®. Besides we all have bigger Filet-O-Fish® to fry.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #72
natasha cebek
 
natasha cebek's Avatar
Dojo: MMA Academy,VT and Budokai M.A, MASS
Location: Vermont
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 50
United_States
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

Oh brother...

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 09:56 AM   #73
Randy Sexton
Dojo: Aikido of Lake Keowee
Location: South Carolina
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 187
United_States
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

I agree with Ledyard Sensei and who knows better than him!
As a Taekwondo stylist I recognize this as a classic two-step sparring technique with one person attacking and the other counterattacking. There are thousands of variations but the same theme. As an Aikido trained martial artist I have had to learn to constantly be aware of controlling my and uke centers to perform any technique and the emphasis on smooth almost effortless motion with a sense of ki flow. This is classic hard style with some joint locks, a few throws, mixed with hand and foot strikes. Label it as Taekwondo, Hapkido, or Karate and I''ll believe it to be properly labelled. To label this as Aikido is to not understand basic concepts of Aikido.
I noted that on the side videos there was a video labelled "Nishio Sensei" at a an Aikido friendship session. I must admit I have not heard of him since I have only been in Aikido for 15 months but I wanted to compare another "Aikido" video. Wow! What a difference! That is Aikido! Flowing, a master of balance and control, and a sense of tremendous power using locks and throws at leisure. The sword work was beautiful to watch. A master of Aikido. A picture is worth a thousand words.
I am only a novice at Aikido but I know it when I see it and the first video ain't it!!

Doc

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will"
Gandhi
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 01:01 PM   #74
d2l
 
d2l's Avatar
Dojo: Purple Dragon School Of Self Defense
Location: Florida
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 43
United_States
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

I'm just now getting around to watching this video. To me, it does look an awful lot like Tae Kwon Do and some Jiu-Jitsu thrown in. One thing that disturbed me about this video, was when Nage either didn't think to, or allowed Uke to retain the knife. You will note in a few instances where Uke still has possession of the weapon even when the technique has been executed. Nage doesn't really try and disarm Uke and/or retreat. Just my 2 cents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 01:15 PM   #75
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 323
Offline
Re: New breed of Aikido

wow. didn't see anything resembling even jujutsu, let alone aikido

but to me, they probably used the name 'aikido' because its popular right now... just like some mcdojos list a whole roster of MAs but teach one ugly hybrid.

maybe in the future it will be renamed 'combat mixed martial arts' because of the growing popularity of MMA
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Mugendo Budogu - Dogi cut to specifically to wear with hakama!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 10:10 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Aikido: Its Spirit and Technique TAnderson General 0 02-27-2007 07:50 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:57 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate