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Old 08-14-2007, 05:53 AM   #26
justin
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Of course, it has nothng to do with Aikido at all - and who said it did?[/quote]

the original poster nothing the thread with a statement "new breed of Aikido" think thats where it came from
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:03 AM   #27
villrg0a
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

[quote= Of course, it has nothng to do with Aikido at all - and who said it did?[/QUOTE]

They claim they are doing combat aikido, it says so in their name.
I posted the video to check if everybody else agrees, hmmm I dont see any aikido either.

If what you said is true, then combat karate, or combat hapkido would be a better name then?
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:00 AM   #28
RoyK
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Re: New breed of Aikido

A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido". When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.

(I am not implying that these demonstrations are "not good enough to be called Aikido" [I'm not qualified to judge], I am just suggesting that using Aikido techniques without the Aikido frame of mind seems like an inefficient approach).
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:08 AM   #29
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
As it happens, Jennifer, I am Filipino and I do know how Combat Aikido came into being. In my country, when we say we are aikidoka, we often hasten to say "traditional, not Combat." The combat version is far better known and publicized in this country than the Aikikai. So I want to keep a clear distance between myself and this kind of thing. Cito Maramba, who is on this forum, would know what I am talking about.

R
That sounds reasonable. I wouldn't worry too much about how you may be percieved anyways and I wouldn't try to take it on personally. There are oodles of mis-perception regarding aikido,martial arts and aikido styles here, there and everywhere. It seems to be the nature of the beast. In my experience focus on my own training and knowledge base improves my practice and fear of mis-perception has never been an allie to me.

If you don't mind,please follow up your statement ,"as it happens I am filipino and I do know how combat came into being." with some of the information that you have about how the arts came into being. I am familiar with Cito Maramba and I am sure he would know( and perhaps if he is reading this forum he may add some info, please ). I do'n't believe there is any skepticism regarding your affiliation or knowledge, certainly not from me, but the questions and intrigue surrounding this particular group still remains on my part.
Thanks
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:12 AM   #30
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote: View Post
A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido". When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.

(I am not implying that these demonstrations are "not good enough to be called Aikido" [I'm not qualified to judge], I am just suggesting that using Aikido techniques without the Aikido frame of mind seems like an inefficient approach).
I agree with the second part of this post with all my training.
Thanks

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:22 AM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Roy Klein wrote: View Post
A serious question.

Osensei adapted Daito Ryu techniques to fit his ideals. If you get rid of the ideals, what good are the adapted techniques? Just go back to the bone breaking sources and call the art "Combat Daito Ryu" and not "Combat Aikido".
Well, for one, even though the status of Daito ryu as koryu is questionable, it is enough of a "traditional" art, where anyone with any real credibility shouldn't just call their art Daito ryu without a proven record of instruction within one of the legitimate branches of the art. And a license to teach from that branch.

Quote:
When you perform a technique in a way that preserves the attacker rather than create as much damage as possible, that's not very combative.
My own opinion is that without very good control of the attacker, there can be no mercy. Therefore I would say that some of the most "combative" waza may also be the most merciful. Just a different viewpoint...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:15 AM   #32
Don_Modesto
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
My own opinion is that without very good control of the attacker, there can be no mercy. Therefore I would say that some of the most "combative" waza may also be the most merciful. Just a different viewpoint...
Very well said.

Concise, punchy, accurate.

(er..."punchy"? Sometimes the language just slaps ya on the back of the head, no?)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:35 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Hey, as long as it's not the mat slapping me on the back of the head, I'm ok...

B,
R (or even the front of the head...OUCH!)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #34
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

For the history of the "Philippine Combat Aikido Federation" now "Tapondo", founded by Monching Gavileno, see here

Now more on topic is the history of the Philippine Martial Arts Combat Aikido (PHIMACA), who are on the video in the original post and entirely unrelated to the above.
from their website: http://www.phimaca.org/:

Quote:
it was established on the 3rd day of July 1997 by Grandmaster Enrico P. Tamayo (EPT), who was then a 3rd Dan black belt of PHILCOMA (Philippine Combat and Martial Arts Association) .... He, who was a former instructor of PHILCOMA decided to form his own group so he can bring out various techniques in Combat Martial Arts. Combining his own style in Combat Aikido.
Okaaay.. so we have someone ranked 3rd Dan in a non-Aikido martial art (PHILCOMA) deciding to break away and form his own group and he decides to add "Aikido" to the name..

Curiouser and curiouser..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:44 PM   #35
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Cito Maramba wrote: View Post
For the history of the "Philippine Combat Aikido Federation" now "Tapondo", founded by Monching Gavileno, see here

Now more on topic is the history of the Philippine Martial Arts Combat Aikido (PHIMACA), who are on the video in the original post and entirely unrelated to the above.
from their website: http://www.phimaca.org/:

Okaaay.. so we have someone ranked 3rd Dan in a non-Aikido martial art (PHILCOMA) deciding to break away and form his own group and he decides to add "Aikido" to the name..

Curiouser and curiouser..
I'll be interested to see 1) if his training travels closer to the traditional aikikai 'brand' that we are familiar with 2) if he simply maintains the same training he was undergoing or 3) if he innovates in a new direction and that potentially might even inspire (gotta be an optimist now and again).

Curiouser and curiouser. Me, too.

Thanks for the info links.

You know, I gotta say, The thing that stands out as 'missing' in this aikido are the instructions of the founder and the philosophical guidelines, or Doka, that he left for us to contemplate about aikidos purpose, being and nature. To me, these are such a huge part of my training I don't know how you can get around them unless you were training with someone who, otherwise, held in their hands the fabric of the universe. nd this does happen and it is possible. I simply don't see any references to such things on the sites presented.
What are your thoughts on this, Cito? Anyone else?
Thanks

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-14-2007 at 05:54 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:26 AM   #36
Ian Cottrill
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Aikido ? It's nothing like my understanding of the art of Aikido.
Oh, & I hope any attackers of mine come at me like that.
Practise it if you will, put your heart & soul into it if it takes your fancy, but PLEASE don't call it AIKIDO.
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:46 AM   #37
Amir Krause
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Re: New breed of Aikido

I have one basic question, considering that Aikido is a generic name. What would make a M.A. part of the Aikido family?

And please, leave out the idea of connection to Ueshiba. It does not hold water in the historical sense (search this forum if you wish to realize why, below a few links).

I had the same question here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9508

Personally, the only answer I can give is - I know it when I see it. But, given this answer, many legitmate Aikido Dojo may find themselves out of my list, and many Dojos belonging to other M.A. (from Judo and jujutsu to Kong-Gu) might be included. Since the thing I recognize is some approach to "AiKi" and is not really unique to good Aikido.

Amir

Some preliminary links about history:

And we already had a lot of historical discussions, see (I tried to choose one post from a thread, describing my point):
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=17
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...51&postcount=9
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=79

You can find more information in the lectures here:
http://www.freewebs.com/aikido/lecture/

Or in the following discussion I had in Aiki-Journal:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...pic.php?t=9889
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:41 AM   #38
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I'll be interested to see 1) if his training travels closer to the traditional aikikai 'brand' that we are familiar with 2) if he simply maintains the same training he was undergoing or 3) if he innovates in a new direction and that potentially might even inspire (gotta be an optimist now and again).
Curiouser and curiouser. Me, too.
Hi Jen,

I think it's clear from the video that 1) is out..
2) is possible, but if so, why did he break away from his original organization? Politics?
3) is also highly unlikely, at least from what we can see.
In any case the original founder of PHIMACA has passed away and it is up to his succesors to make innovations (if any)

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
You know, I gotta say, The thing that stands out as 'missing' in this aikido are the instructions of the founder and the philosophical guidelines, or Doka, that he left for us to contemplate about aikidos purpose, being and nature. To me, these are such a huge part of my training I don't know how you can get around them unless you were training with someone who, otherwise, held in their hands the fabric of the universe. nd this does happen and it is possible. I simply don't see any references to such things on the sites presented.
What are your thoughts on this, Cito? Anyone else?
Thanks
For me the bigger question here is, who has the right to call their art "Aikido"? We cannot even say that there has to be a connection to Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei as Amir has pointed out, given that there is Korindo Aikido of Minoru Hirai, and Nihon Goshin Aikido of Shodo Morita. Both of these arts have historical reasons for using the name "Aikido", even without a linear connection to O-Sensei.
Can PHIMACA make a similar historical justification?
Here's a quote from another PHIMACA Website http://www.freewebs.com/phimaca/dojo.htm

Quote:
Note: It is important to note that Phimaca Combat is just a name and what is really important is the training and the growth into a complete martial artist.
Okaay.. so I'm not legally liable if I sell you a laptop computer and it turns out to be an etch-a-sketch? After all.. it's just a name..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 08-15-2007, 11:21 AM   #39
Darren
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Re: New breed of Aikido

They did
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Old 08-16-2007, 01:04 PM   #40
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Re: New breed of Aikido

[quote=Rupert Atkinson;186277 They train in a similar way in Korea and while it may not look alive or real, the people doing it are about as tough as tough as tough can be - a Karate approach to Jujutsu, if you like. In that sense, they are probably more martial than the average aikidoka, in my opinion.?[/QUOTE]

Probrably more martial than the average aikidoka? I think not. I trained for many years in Korean martial arts before aikido and trained with many tough guys. Trust me these dont look like them to me.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:34 AM   #41
arderljohn
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Re: New breed of Aikido

me and myself, never understand what are they trying to become...shame to them! Using the name "AIKIDO". I believe they don't even know what is the meaning of these word.

Calm down my friend, everything is under control.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:51 PM   #42
villrg0a
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Hello All:

First off, I linked the PHIMACA video to inform other aikidokas about this new group. I was following another thread prior to upload http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13042 and it made me think.

I have no ill feelings about this group, but just the same would like to find out if there is really indeed an aikido in what they are doing, as it says so in their name. Since they made the video public by uploading it to "youtube", I figure it would be ok to post them here.

After reading thread comments from different aikido communities from around the world, things are much clearer to me now.

Aikido is about life preservation for both defender & attacker, we study them as a martial art to defend ourselves, as a cardio vascular exercise to keep up with work related stress, to develop our inner energy to aid us in our old age, to cleanse our spirit and be a better citizen to the community, and much much more.

We dont do aikido to learn how to kill, instead we harmonize or blend to deflect, throw, or control, and that's it. If part of the syllabus involves lethal strikes, then I dont see reason why one should call it aikido. But that is just my humble opinion, and hey this is the internet, we have all the freedom to speak and express our opinion.

If somebody else disagrees, they are also entitled to their own opinion.

Cheers!
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:51 AM   #43
Amir Krause
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Romuel Villareal wrote: View Post
Hello All:

Aikido is about life preservation for both defender & attacker, we study them as a martial art to defend ourselves, as a cardio vascular exercise to keep up with work related stress, to develop our inner energy to aid us in our old age, to cleanse our spirit and be a better citizen to the community, and much much more.

We dont do aikido to learn how to kill, instead we harmonize or blend to deflect, throw, or control, and that's it. If part of the syllabus involves lethal strikes, then I dont see reason why one should call it aikido. But that is just my humble opinion, and hey this is the internet, we have all the freedom to speak and express our opinion.
I don't know, perhaps all the things you wrote about are relevant for Ueshiba Aikido, though I doubt it. But, it is definitely not true for Korindo Aikido. Some of the techniques we learn could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques).

In fact, I doubt you could use your claim for Ueshiba Aikido either, last time I checked, a common technique in all Aikido styles is to hit an attacker with the largest object in the environment -the planet Earth. This hit has been proven to be very lethal to unskilled opponents (I once read an article indicating Aikido was the most lethal M.A. to university students in Japan at the 70s, apparently lots of enthusiasm and very limited Ukemi skill are not good for the health of Uke, if it can happen as an accident, what may happen in real life encounter?).

Amir
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:47 AM   #44
villrg0a
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I don't know, perhaps all the things you wrote about are relevant for Ueshiba Aikido, though I doubt it. But, it is definitely not true for Korindo Aikido. Some of the techniques we learn could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques).

In fact, I doubt you could use your claim for Ueshiba Aikido either, last time I checked, a common technique in all Aikido styles is to hit an attacker with the largest object in the environment -the planet Earth. This hit has been proven to be very lethal to unskilled opponents (I once read an article indicating Aikido was the most lethal M.A. to university students in Japan at the 70s, apparently lots of enthusiasm and very limited Ukemi skill are not good for the health of Uke, if it can happen as an accident, what may happen in real life encounter?).
If what you say is true, then my previous JKD & Karate training can also be called aikido because "some of the techniques we learned could prove lethal for an assailant (such as neck/head locks and strangulation techniques)". The last time I checked, driving your elbow into ukes spine was not part of the 150 basic aikido techniques.

If lethal strikes are usual to aikido (but I thought they were called atemi), then other martial arts esp. striking ones than employs deadly strikes can be also called aikido then?

Last edited by villrg0a : 08-29-2007 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:02 AM   #45
Amir Krause
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Sorry, but I don't get your logic.

The fact that Aikido does have lethal techniques, does not make any other M.A. which has lethal techniques paert of Aikido, nor vice-versa.

Amir
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:44 AM   #46
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Sorry Amir, I am confused with yours too But going back to the subject video, can you please tell me based from what you see if it is aikido or something else.

Thanks.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:39 PM   #47
Vincent Munoz
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Re: New breed of Aikido

I really don't want to say something about this group because I have some friends who are their members.

But as a religious traditional aikidokas, I cannot kept my mouth shut.

For me, I think their founder just use the popularity of aikido plus the word "combat" to sell it to some freshmen. Businesswise... to gather more members. They even brag their quick promotion to shodan (less than a year I think). It's a clear marketing strategy.

12 years ago(1998), I visited the Quiapo(Manila) branch of Philippine Combat Aikido(now tapondo), I was having conversation with Charles Gaveleno(son of Monching Gaveleno). He admitted to me that they just added the word "combat" for business purposes. They then modified some of aikido techniques.

Tapondo is not related to PHIMACA.

I was supposed to visit Omar Camar, Sensei(founder of Phil. Aikikai) who has a dojo in the same building. Unfortunately, the group of Omar Camar Sensei was out for a promotion party in the beach. I then visited PCA dojo. There I met Charles, sensei.

Combining the words "combat" and "aikido" alone is a mistake. if you translate it to simple english.. it's COMBAT LOVE AND HARMONY. does that make sense? I think the founder was a former traditional aikidoka who didn't gain deeper understanding of the real essense of aikido. Leave early and create his own.

For me, even if you move like traditional aikidokas, if you don't have the real aikido in your heart... IT'S NOT AIKIDO AT ALL.

Domo...
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:43 PM   #48
Vincent Munoz
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Amir,
An aikidoka don't do ukemi in real life encounter. They just execute ukemi in the dojo to help the nage learn their techniques.
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:48 AM   #49
Amir Krause
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Re: New breed of Aikido

Quote:
Vincent Munoz wrote: View Post
Amir,
An aikidoka don't do ukemi in real life encounter. They just execute ukemi in the dojo to help the nage learn their techniques.
Obviously, this only means the potential for lethality of Aikido Techniques in real life encounters is higher...
Which invalidates the argument about Aikido being dentified via its non-lethal nature.

Quote:
Sorry Amir, I am confused with yours too But going back to the subject video, can you please tell me based from what you see if it is aikido or something else.

Thanks.
As I tried to explain in my previous message, Aikido is a generic name. And I have yet to find any real criteria defining the genere.

Amir

Amir
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Old 08-30-2007, 05:38 AM   #50
villrg0a
 
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Re: New breed of Aikido

"As I tried to explain in my previous message, Aikido is a generic name. And I have yet to find any real criteria defining the genere."

Hello again Amir. As you have yet to find any real criteria for the subject, am I correct to assume that you mean they are not doing aikido?

I am aware of the potential damage aikido can do in real life, but thats another subject all in all, meanwhile let us stick with the video.
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