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Old 08-28-2007, 04:04 AM   #151
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Hi all,

Just like Ian (happysod), I too have the gift of annoyance. I believe I am at most time too outspoken to keep my gap shut and most people often take my well intentions negatively and worst - a personal attack. Living dangerously in this small aikido community, some say.

First of all, I have no issues with Mori's techniques and video (the main topic).

Like most of the posters here who had discussed on the topic of abuse in the dojo, I agree that a line must be drawn between violent/brutality/abuse and realism in training. Here, I borrow a quote from someone's website (whom I believed I have also annoyed):

Quote:
The Path to enlightenment is the acknowledgement of violent, the embrace of it as part of our being.
There is no doubt we all recognized and accept the nature of violent and accept that it is part of our being and that of all animal life form on this planet. Conscience is what that separate man and beast in the animal kingdom. In any dojo, one has to judge the level of realism of a violent attack and response. By being an Uke, one has already surrendered to the Nage at the beginning of a technique; it is inhumane (as Nage) to "dish-out" more than he has received, especially when the Uke has no means (spiritually/physically) of responding to the Nage's action.

Like most posters here, I have no qualms about reality training in a dojo but I do have an issue with ungentlemanly behavior and lack of sportsmanship. IMO, a senior practitioner/an instructor who consciously abused a senpai or student with more force then required has absolutely no class. There is a very broad line between negligence and the intention to hurt.

Just my 2 sen.

David Y

Last edited by David Yap : 08-28-2007 at 04:06 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-31-2007, 03:21 AM   #152
villrg0a
 
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Dojo: Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Location: Khobar Saudi Arabia
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Well, if given the chance I will train with Mori sensei and would recommend the rest of our dojo to the same. If some of you think he is abusive, you aint seen nothing yet. That particular technique is standard, ukes are taught well, very very well on how to handle those type of throws. He is a master in his own right, and have mastered the basics very well, everything he does is in unison w/c makes his techniques rather strong. Afterall, he was the last uchi deshi of the late Gozo Shioda Kancho, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido.
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Old 09-01-2007, 03:53 PM   #153
Walter Martindale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
The clip reminds me of an essay by another uchideshi, David Lynch, who spoke of Shioda deliberately hurting UKE for the pleasure of the audience and making jokes about it.

Why would you smack a cooperating UKE's head into the mat like that?

Did Mori quip to the audience with disarming insouciance, "He hit his head, you know"?

I sure with some of the "real" attackers' cases had been recorded on video like these choreographed things. Oh! to see Oh!ba going after Osensei. The judoka after Tohei. The uchideshi taking on the longshormen who teased Osensei...
Haven't seen much "real" attackers, the closest I've come to that is at demos with one of my past sensei and 3 or 4 attackers with no choreographed attacks. We all essentially tried to kill him, but ended up in a heap on the ground, a little sore and not really injured but we never laid a hand on him - and we included a TKD nidan, a former professional full-contact karate godan, myself (judo shodan) and a couple of kung-fu types.
At that level, the "demo" and not "real" level, we were being cast to the ground in a big hurry and left part way down to figure out our own ukemi while he dealt with another attacker - if we weren't up to protecting ourselves with adequate ukemi, it hurt because we landed on "corners". I suspect that if it was "real" there would have been a little more grunt in the finish of the throws, with us being directed head-first to the ground at a speed where we would have had trouble coping with the direction and velocity of the impact. An in-class demonstration full-speed direct-drop shihonage just about put me out, and I was expecting to be thrown hard - the neck muscles only just kept me from really whacking my head.
The uke in Mori's video appear skilled and up to the task, and I suspect that his waza would have been different with uke who were less skilled.
From my judo days; we used to practice a lot of what we called "uchikomi" - entering for a technique repeatedly, but not finishing off. When we got to randori, we'd enter for the technique, but not have the kuzushi or the finish to actually complete the throw, because we'd practiced stopping so often... It took quite a while to overcome that.
In the Aikido practice, the amount of "umph" I put into the end of a throw depends on a) how much I trust uke to land safely, b) how much I want to take back from uke when he/she becomes nage, because my throwing them hard is tacit permission for them to return the favour, c) how close we are to the wall or other pairings, etc. As I'm only a shodan, only able to make about 1 training per week with my schedule, and in my 50's now, I don't do this too often because it then takes a while to recover from practice.

I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)

Cheers
Walter
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:15 AM   #154
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Nice Post Walter, Thanks,
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:26 AM   #155
Aiki1
 
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)
That's one valid approach. In my style, it is the opposite, and no less "real" in terms of practicality (unless you want to hurt someone, which is easy to do under the circumstances.) The ideal end of one of our "throws" is - "What happened?!?!?" and that to me is far more valuable in terms of what * I * want out of Aikido. It's a different concept of "finish."

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:58 AM   #156
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Are "what happened??" and what Walter described incompatable? Personally, I didn't think so. From your other posts though, I think I could see how your practice might differ (and nothing at all wrong with that).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:18 AM   #157
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Haven't seen much "real" attackers, the closest I've come to that is at demos with one of my past sensei and 3 or 4 attackers with no choreographed attacks. We all essentially tried to kill him, but ended up in a heap on the ground, a little sore and not really injured but we never laid a hand on him - and we included a TKD nidan, a former professional full-contact karate godan, myself (judo shodan) and a couple of kung-fu types.
At that level, the "demo" and not "real" level, we were being cast to the ground in a big hurry and left part way down to figure out our own ukemi while he dealt with another attacker - if we weren't up to protecting ourselves with adequate ukemi, it hurt because we landed on "corners". I suspect that if it was "real" there would have been a little more grunt in the finish of the throws, with us being directed head-first to the ground at a speed where we would have had trouble coping with the direction and velocity of the impact. An in-class demonstration full-speed direct-drop shihonage just about put me out, and I was expecting to be thrown hard - the neck muscles only just kept me from really whacking my head.
The uke in Mori's video appear skilled and up to the task, and I suspect that his waza would have been different with uke who were less skilled.
From my judo days; we used to practice a lot of what we called "uchikomi" - entering for a technique repeatedly, but not finishing off. When we got to randori, we'd enter for the technique, but not have the kuzushi or the finish to actually complete the throw, because we'd practiced stopping so often... It took quite a while to overcome that.
In the Aikido practice, the amount of "umph" I put into the end of a throw depends on a) how much I trust uke to land safely, b) how much I want to take back from uke when he/she becomes nage, because my throwing them hard is tacit permission for them to return the favour, c) how close we are to the wall or other pairings, etc. As I'm only a shodan, only able to make about 1 training per week with my schedule, and in my 50's now, I don't do this too often because it then takes a while to recover from practice.

I think that a lot of us senior (age-wise) students have gotten old enough to not really enjoy being thumped around that much any more, but I think also that it's more honest as a martial art to have a bit of grunt at the end of a throw to keep uke's skills developing or at least keep them from deteriorating, and to keep the neurological patterning intact, to be able to "finish" a throw if we ever have to do it "out there" - if we practice with "finish", we don't have to change our thinking when it matters. (That applies also the the speed and "reality" of the attacks, but that's a whole other thread that's been discussed elsewhere.)

Cheers
Walter
Great post and I agree for the most part. I have a 70 year old Shodan with arthritis and he likes a good thumping practice. My only point is intent. A technique executed with Malice is not appropriate for any reason unless it's a matter of life and death. I actually believe that hard practice weeds out Malice over time. I know it has in my case. Shoji Nishio and my Sensei Mike Fowler are great believers in "turning swords into plowshares" through sincere and hard training.

Old timer or not... Master or not... Should someone take advantage of my vulnerability to put a hurt on me and I sense Malice in thier actions my next Ukemi might surprise them a bit.

William Hazen
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:42 AM   #158
Walter Martindale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Great post and I agree for the most part. I have a 70 year old Shodan with arthritis and he likes a good thumping practice. My only point is intent. A technique executed with Malice is not appropriate for any reason unless it's a matter of life and death. I actually believe that hard practice weeds out Malice over time. I know it has in my case. Shoji Nishio and my Sensei Mike Fowler are great believers in "turning swords into plowshares" through sincere and hard training.

Old timer or not... Master or not... Should someone take advantage of my vulnerability to put a hurt on me and I sense Malice in thier actions my next Ukemi might surprise them a bit.

William Hazen
This is sort of what I meant - I give myself to a nage in practice so that he or she can get better at the waza being practiced, and that I can improve my ukemi. We take turns, and if the uke I'm working with can handle it (after 8 years of judo in the 1970s, Aikido since 1993, and 24 years as a professional coach, I'm reasonably good at discerning a person's athletic abilities), I put a little more into the kime/finish of the technique. That gives them permission to throw me a little harder.
If I'm practicing with someone with equal or greater ability and he or she exploits my offer of my body for practice (i.e., with malice or mischief) I get a little cranky and respond in kind - thing is - most Aikido folks I've practiced with haven't had the competitive judo background, and a good shiai ending can get some attention - now, that said, the usual response is to suggest that as a stiff old man, I don't really need to get bashed about...
All _that_ said, since I started Aikido I've only encountered two individuals who I would call thugs in practice, and one was probably just my mis-reading of what happened when I was quite tired at Aikikai Hombu in Tokyo (only visited there 4 times).
Cheers
Walter
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:34 AM   #159
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
.... I'm reasonably good at discerning a person's athletic abilities), I put a little more into the kime/finish of the technique. That gives them permission to throw me a little harder.
If I'm practicing with someone with equal or greater ability and he or she exploits my offer of my body for practice (i.e., with malice or mischief) I get a little cranky and respond in kind ....
Cheers
Walter
Interesting. If I think I can take harder ukemi, I'll give nage a more energetic attack. I'd rather set the pace myself if possible. Finishing harder to give them permission to thump me wouldn't work for me. I don't have enough control to be that clear as nage. And most people I train with would probably be annoyed.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:08 AM   #160
Walter Martindale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Interesting. If I think I can take harder ukemi, I'll give nage a more energetic attack. I'd rather set the pace myself if possible. Finishing harder to give them permission to thump me wouldn't work for me. I don't have enough control to be that clear as nage. And most people I train with would probably be annoyed.

Regards,
Mark
Well, there's that, too.. A firmer, quicker attack gives my partner more to play with and I have to be on the ball to accept it. I guess it works both ways - if I attack them with more energy they get to thump me around a little more - which I guess gives them the go ahead to attack me with more energy?
One of my former senseis says that his dojo uses coloured belts to indicate that you can throw some people harder than others - e.g., it was gokyu-yellow, yonkyu and sankyu - blue, nikyu and ikkyu - brown - the yellow belts weren't thumped too hard, blue a bit harder, and brown were fed to the sharks (he wouldn't put us up for grading unless we were ready as a grading is as much a test for the sensei as it is for the student)
W
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:22 PM   #161
Matt Reischer
Location: Chicago
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Justin Thomas wrote: View Post
lots like a whole load of solid practice going on there.
intense.
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