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Old 08-14-2007, 02:19 PM   #76
Basia Halliop
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style
What's hard and soft though? Some people use the words to refer more to the attacks that uke gives, other people use them to refer to the level of cooperativeness and/or resistance of uke, others to how nage takes control of uke, and yet others use them to refer to what nage does _after_ uke is fully under their control and 'defeated'.

What if there's, hypothetically, a kind of cooperative uke who is off balance and is then kind of smashed with much more force than nage needs to throw them or pin them? Is that 'hard' (because of the extra 'smashing' ) or is it 'soft'? What about the other way around -- everything is very active and attacks are vigorous and people are trying to reverse or whatever and balance has to be truely taken, but once uke is truely falling there is just a plain businesslike kind of throw, no extra bouncing or smashing or bone-crunching or whatever. Does that make it 'soft'?

I'm not positive where exactly the various videos fit in, just that dividing everything up into two categories: 'Hard style' and 'Soft style'' and saying they're opposites seems oversimplified, and it also seems too simple to look at some way of practicing you object to and just do every thing you can think of as 'totally opposite' as possible and assume that that is the solution and that the 'total opposite' of something bad is automatically something good.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:29 PM   #77
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

I like the concept of the least amount of force necessary to control and immobilize the attacker.

Keep in mind these are not real attacks in the street sense. Even there, it can sometimes come down to whether excessive force was used. If someone slaps your face and you break their arms and legs you'll probably go to jail. Obviously, when adrenaline is involved things sometimes get away from you. But that's why we train is it not? To learn control.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:30 PM   #78
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
What's hard and soft though? Some people use the words to refer more to the attacks that uke gives, other people use them to refer to the level of cooperativeness and/or resistance of uke, others to how nage takes control of uke, and yet others use them to refer to what nage does _after_ uke is fully under their control and 'defeated'.

What if there's, hypothetically, a kind of cooperative uke who is off balance and is then kind of smashed with much more force than nage needs to throw them or pin them? Is that 'hard' (because of the extra 'smashing' ) or is it 'soft'? What about the other way around -- everything is very active and attacks are vigorous and people are trying to reverse or whatever and balance has to be truely taken, but once uke is truely falling there is just a plain businesslike kind of throw, no extra bouncing or smashing or bone-crunching or whatever. Does that make it 'soft'?

I'm not positive where exactly the various videos fit in, just that dividing everything up into two categories: 'Hard style' and 'Soft style'' and saying they're opposites seems oversimplified, and it also seems too simple to look at some way of practicing you object to and just do every thing you can think of as 'totally opposite' as possible and assume that that is the solution and that the 'total opposite' of something bad is automatically something good.
It's about what a person desires from his training. It's about the methodology a person desires to follow. I only use the hard and soft style to bring about the difference in what people want from Aikido. Some desire more spiritual or not self defense, while others look for self defense or combat in there Aikido. I can accept the differences of Aikido methodology.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:33 PM   #79
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's about what a person desires from his training. It's about the methodology a person desires to follow. I only use the hard and soft style to bring about the difference in what people want from Aikido. Some desire more spiritual or not self defense, while others look for self defense or combat in there Aikido. I can accept the differences of Aikido methodology.
I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.

Larry Novick
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:36 PM   #80
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

In agreement with Larry, I also have to say that I've been thrown in "soft" ways that felt devastating...maybe even more so than some "hard" ways of throwing.

Don't have much "street experience" myself, so I can't speak to that.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-14-2007, 02:41 PM   #81
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.
I can't judge your Aikido or your personal experiences. I can only say that we are different in our Aikido methodology. I'm glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. I'm glad that the early students from the founding father taught Aikido differently to different people. Some people love Yoseikan Aikido and it's methodology should be respected.
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:51 PM   #82
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I can't judge your Aikido or your personal experiences. I can only say that we are different in our Aikido methodology. I'm glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. I'm glad that the early students from the founding father taught Aikido differently to different people. Some people love Yoseikan Aikido and it's methodology should be respected.
I too am glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. And I do respect Yoseikan Aikido, never said or implied anything different. I've learned good stuff from all the styles that I've been exposed to (Many), includiing some Very hard stuff. That's not the issue here. The issue is brutality in Aikido, as opposed to simply "hard" technique - and the adjunct that seems to have appeared which is probably superfluous - that hard = effective and soft = ineffective, which is not true.

Larry Novick
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:52 PM   #83
Basia Halliop
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
and it's methodology should be respected.
I guess I don't really see why... I haven't seen enough of it to say that I respect it or don't (more likely there is plenty there I would respect and some things going on I wouldn't, as anywhere else), but in general the fact that someone, even if it's someone I respect, 'loves' something isn't all that relevent to earning my real respect or admiration.

Plenty of perfectly nice people love doing things I don't respect...
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:53 PM   #84
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I guess I don't really see why... I haven't seen enough of it to say that I respect it or don't, but in general the fact that someone, even if it's someone I respect, 'loves' something isn't all that relevent to earning my real respect or admiration.

Plenty of perfectly nice people love things I don't respect...
That's a very good point as well....

Larry Novick
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ACE Aikido
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:01 PM   #85
Ellis Amdur
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Tough training

I remember discussing aikido with a teacher of mine (definitely non-aikido) - someone who had participated in ring fights, street fights, even full combat - and I described aikido cheap shots: the crank of the already pinned person (how do you ukemi out of that?) or the concussive slam of the head. (Matsuda Seijiro did that one to me. I have some ability in ukemi, but he, as a "joke", did irimi-nage, waited until I was a few inches above the ground, and with palm on forehead, dropped his body weight and concussed me. And he, when I staggered to my feet and off the mat, laughed and patted my shoulder. Shioda wasn't the only one.). Anyway, I described this, and my teacher got a genuinely puzzled look on his face. "Let me get this straight. It's not a shiai. The student takes ukemi and is supposed to attack and fall a certain way" - he then repeated the incidents I described. And then slowly, as if talking a foreign language, he said, "And then the students think the teacher is tough?"
Another thought, brought to mind by Takeno and Mustard. While a mere puppy, I asked Terry Dobson who was the scariest person at the Aikikai. I expected him to say Chiba, Arikawa or one of Saito Morihiro's students (some of the latter infamous for cheap shots), and he said, "Kuroiwa. He was an ex-boxer, had a body like a Greek god before he got sick, had incredible technique, unbelievable hand speed and power, and he never - once - hurt anyone.' You knew so clearly what he could do in the way he didn't do it!"
The Osensei question. He explicitly said that he was not concerned about "good and evil." He had war criminals among his students (he was a "Class G" war criminal himself - allegedly. I'm curious about the details of this, I think it was like a "thought crime.") Dobson onoly remembered on time that Ueshiba ever intervened on a moral basis - after an uchi-deshi snapped the arm of a twelve year old white belt. Terry, proud for Osensei, described how the latter took said uchi-deshi into the back and screamed at him and he emerged, white as a sheet. I asked, "Did he change his behavior." Terry, thoughtful and silent, "Not in the slightest."
In short, the decent guys (consider Tomiki Kenji for an example) stayed decent. The indecent have had a free playground.
And lest there be any breast beating in my direction, I haven't yet said anything about Mr. Mori whatsoever. I've pointed to some exemplars of wonderful, very powerful aikido - the best of not only Yoshinkan, but aikido at it's finest, and I've quoted David Lynch, uchideshi about headbanging.
As for Mr. Mori, make up your own minds.

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Old 08-14-2007, 03:06 PM   #86
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Right on, Ellis, and very nicely put.

Ever get down to LA? :-)

Larry Novick
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:09 PM   #87
Ron Tisdale
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

I love it...another brilliant post Ellis.

You are so very good at asking the questions, usually without giving out the answers (which we should really figure out for ourselves anyway).

I really wish I could have met Kuroiwa Sensei.

I've got to wonder just how we reconcile Ueshiba Sensei's holding himself apart from so much of the violence around him. What is the saying...when good men do nothing??? At the same time, I kind of admire that kind of aloofness.

Aikido really confuses me.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-14-2007, 03:20 PM   #88
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I too am glad that the early students of Aikido learned the art from different perspectives. And I do respect Yoseikan Aikido, never said or implied anything different. I've learned good stuff from all the styles that I've been exposed to (Many), includiing some Very hard stuff. That's not the issue here. The issue is brutality in Aikido, as opposed to simply "hard" technique - and the adjunct that seems to have appeared which is probably superfluous - that hard = effective and soft = ineffective, which is not true.
I never indicated the effectiveness of a person's Aikido. I simply stated the facts of the founding father's personal development and personal religious conviction of Shinto. I stated the facts of how it has impacted the later styles of Aikido. You misconstrued my intentions. If a persons desires more spiritual Aikido, then that is there right. If a person desires the early methods of Aikido, which had a lot less to do with Shinto religion, then that is there right. My statements are not to judge, but to state the developmental evolution of Aikido and some styles.

The respected sensei and there years of learning Aikido, while well established in the Aikido world, are not about brute force, but about methodology. I think this is more about perception than fact, it seems. Misunderstandings in such forums is often the case.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:29 PM   #89
Basia Halliop
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
If a persons desires more spiritual Aikido, then that is there right. If a person desires the early methods of Aikido, which had a lot less to do with Shinto religion, then that is there right.
I don't so much disagree with this. It just seems to me that it's not really what the discussion/disagreement is about.

It's more like 'poor sportsmanship' or something, or like someone else put it 'cheap shots'. I think that's quite separate from hard training. It's more things like hitting someone who's already effectively surrendered (ie already falling or pinned). No matter how hard you like to train, it's easy to think of examples that seem like poor sportsmanship at best.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:44 PM   #90
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I don't so much disagree with this. It just seems to me that it's not really what the discussion/disagreement is about.

It's more like 'poor sportsmanship' or something, or like someone else put it 'cheap shots'. I think that's quite separate from hard training. It's more things like hitting someone who's already effectively surrendered (ie already falling or pinned). No matter how hard you like to train, it's easy to think of examples that seem like poor sportsmanship at best.
Yoseikan Aikido teaches to hit when the person is down on the ground. Is it better to say that I don't like the methodology of some Aikido? Is it better to say that one of the earlier founders, Minoru Mochizuki used a methodology that is not appealing to me?

I can respect a person that does not like some Aikido styles.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:46 PM   #91
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tough training

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
IThe Osensei question. He explicitly said that he was not concerned about "good and evil." He had war criminals among his students (he was a "Class G" war criminal himself - allegedly. I'm curious about the details of this, I think it was like a "thought crime.")
Again from Aikido Journal:

Quote:
Apparently, after the war Ueshiba Sensei went through some very tough times.
The fact that Ueshiba Sensei was an adviser to the Butokukai in Kyoto which was a rival of the Kodokan Judo organization was not good. When MacArthur came he disbanded the organization. Ueshiba Sensei was implicated as a war criminal and accused of class G war crimes. His foundation [the Kobukai] was taken away and his activities were stopped. Also, the Ueshiba dojo closed down for a time and Ueshiba Sensei secluded himself in Iwama. Since he could no longer practice budo, he created the "Aikien" [Aiki Farm] and engaged in farming in Iwama. He was just eking out a living.
The paradox is, this is from an interview with Gozo Shioda...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=425
Best,
Ron

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Old 08-14-2007, 03:52 PM   #92
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

I have never understood why those who follow the methodology of Minoru Mochizuki, some classify as using brute force. A direct student of Morihei Ueshiba, but his method of Aikido misunderstood by some.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:58 PM   #93
Basia Halliop
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Is it better to say that I don't like the methodology of some Aikido? Is it better to say that one of the earlier founders, Minoru Mochizuki used a methodology that is not appealing to me?
I would probably just say that I don't respect the methodology of some Aikido, and believe it to be unethical. I might or might not respect the individual practitioners.

Finding it 'unappealing' sounds too much like I don't like the colour they chose for their hakama or something :lol
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:06 PM   #94
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I would probably just say that I don't respect the methodology of some Aikido, and believe it to be unethical. I might or might not respect the individual practitioners.

Finding it 'unappealing' sounds too much like I don't like the colour they chose for their hakama or something :lol
I can respect your opinion. Thanks for being honest!

Minoru Mochizuki, great Aikidoka.
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:26 PM   #95
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Hey Ellis,

As you can see, I've been digging...from Aikido Journal yet again...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/...69e3a1cea0e648

The jist of which is that there are no class G war crimes, and Shioda Sensei was mistaken (at least in the classifications...no idea about the "being accused").

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-14-2007, 07:02 PM   #96
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
does one person desire that Aikido be taught, practice and applied one way?
Who said this? The issue is brutality, not uniformity.

Quote:
Aikido to some is not Aikido to others. Personal attacks to one's methodology and application of the art only serves to make Aikido less appealing.
Osensei did it. And we ARE supposed to keep improving aikido, right?

Quote:
I'm glad there is a hard style and a soft style. For those who want to learn more self defense oriented, combat Aikdio, then Yoseikan and others are available. For those who want to learn the softer more meditation/spiritual Aikido then Ki is available.
I'm guessing this is a spurious distinction, as others have commented, above.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:06 PM   #97
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Ron -
Class G war criminal - http://rmmla.wsu.edu/conferences/con...tractc2e4.html Clearly, a minor - "thought" crime.
Also, see Steve Morris's "No Hold's Barred" - Morris is an infamous guy in British karate circles - you can read about it on different areas on his own website. But what is interesting is the research he got into regarding martial arts and right-wing atrocities pre-and-during WWII - and a whole section in which he SEEMS TO fill in a LOT of blanks in Shioda Gozo's official biography.
http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk...noteslinks.htm
I do not know how accurate all of Morris' research is - but some is clear historical record. And it's a read that makes one think.
I got a considerable reaction in one of my pieces in Dueling with Osensei (Tenchi: Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck) which asked some questions about Ueshiba's collusion and relationship with right-wing organizations, providing a meeting place at the Kobukan for what, by any definition was a terrorist organization. Personally, I think we do far better - particularly in an art like aikido, when we take a clear-eyed look at what our teachers do and who they are. Learning and playing with violence is too important to leave anything to faith. We will make different decisions on whether to stay or leave -but this should be based on truth - not "reframing" (abuse is hard training) or wishful thinking ("he's spiritual thus he can do no harm" ) . . .Oh yeah, I'm repeating myself - I already wrote on this, didn't I?

Best

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Old 08-14-2007, 07:14 PM   #98
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I absolutely disagree if you are saying that "soft" or "spiritual" Aikido is not street effective, and that "only hard" Aikido is. I can tell you from real-world experience that that is most definitely not the case - on both counts.
This also outlines my first hand experiences of 'street effectiveness' and aikido. On more than one occassion with more than one attacker. Unfortunately ( or fortunately if one is a skeptic).
Thank you.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:16 PM   #99
Ellis Amdur
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Taking ukemi for Ueshiba always seems to have been a "fraught" experience, by the way. He breaks Yukawa's arm for being "half-hearted," but is furious in Manchuria when Ohba, an expert judoka and aikidoka, in absolutely respect, gives a 100% attack - not all sprawled out, but real "fighting" attacks to the best of his ability. Ueshiba's technique, per Ohba, was incredibly powerful, but not smooth and perfect, and he was quite angry with Ohba until Sonobe, the great Jikishin Kage-ryu naginata instructor approached Ueshiba and told him how wonderful she found the demo - as did others. (In short, you tank and you get broke, you give it your all, and you tick him off - where, oh pilgrim is the middle way?)
That Ueshiba was remarkable is beyond doubt - that Shioda, a very ordinary guy, per several uchideshi I spoke with, could do remarkable things, is also beyond doubt. Remarkable doesn't necessarily equal caring/nice/unselfish/supportive/moral - what have you.

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 08-14-2007 at 07:18 PM.

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Old 08-14-2007, 10:04 PM   #100
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Re: my sensei "video clip"

Quote:
Adrian Stuart wrote: View Post
this is my sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHKw_riHDQ

he was ulchi deshi for gozo shioda for 10 years.
Hello Adrian,

Who was the uke in the video and what does he have to say about the comments posted?

David
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